Why is this allowed?

[Karmic]

It is illegal in most casinos in LV for employees or friends/family of employees to gamble in casinos. It is in the employer contract and a clause. In fact there is a casino company LAW that bars ex employees to enter and gamble in their place of ex-employment for a period of 6 Months. This is a known fact in LV and any Casino worldwide.

I have no idea which casino you refer to but most High class casinos have this rule.

Which LV casino do you play poker at? I'd be happy to meet you there around Christmas and we can discuss this topic with the floor manager. I have had uniformed casino employees sit down at the table with me on multiple occasions at GVR. The term shill also exists for a reason. There are different rules for different games, however, these rules are not in place to protect the public, they are in place to protect the casino from their own employees.


Furthermore: http://www.recruitingnevada.com/gaming/casinoemployment.aspx please read the part about employee gambling.

 

[Tass]

Why should ND not be allowed to continue enjoying this game?

He should be allowed enjoying the game as long as the way he's enjoying the game does not conflict with ethics, common sense and the vitality of the game.

Who said that MA has no rules regulating Planet partners?

The fact that we are discussing these issue is evidence that they do not regulate properly

Why is everyone getting mad that it could be possible for ND or his friends to abuse there position?

Because abuse in not something the majority of people would enjoy. The possibility of abuse is preventing new players from joining and making old player leave the game or decreasing their activity. Not good at all.

Have any of them ever given anyone reason to believe that they are dishonest?

Doesn't matter. It's common sense to avoid conflict of interest and the possibilty to abuse power.

 

[CuilwenOnnedhie]

...........................

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Tass

So maybe contingency rules should be in place. And maybe they are. I just don't see why people who have given us no reason to distrust them should have to delete their avatars.

 

[Kitty]

It's not about ND, it's about MA.
It's not a witch hunt for ND, it's a wake up call for MA, We deposit real money, we should know what the hell is going on. We are investors that are not getting the portfolio from the company we invest in.
Greyfox, you must not deposit because what I get from you is you simply don't care about our money. If insider trading is going on, it needs to be stopped, pure and simple.
MA needs to step up and inform us of the truth. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, so DO NOT misunderstand me! The fact that MA has yet to speak up in what has now become a giant outcry speaks volumes to me and in fact scares the shit out of my wallet.


Wanted to add that I emailed this link to Frank's MA addy. Maybe he will look now.

 

[Karmic]

Are you familiar with Sun International? Also owns an entire gambling island called Atlantis? Thats the one who I am talking about and I had friend who worked there who once told me about that rule. No first hand exp i'm afraid. Wont be able to make it to LV hon, with m ydad in Germany.

I don't believe Sun Itnernational has a casino in LV. I edited my earlier post to give you a link as well. I do not work in a Casino either however I have many friends and a family member that do. The rules are different depending on what you are doing eg. a cocktail waitress can play off duty. A blackjack dealer may not be able to play any games in a casino. A poker dealer can play poker. Making blanket statements that it is illegal for a casino employee to play in any casino anywhere in the world is simply wrong.

Yes, there have been multiple cases of online poker employees and even the top brass playing on their own sites and cheating using superuser accounts. I think it is a good thing for the community to be keeping an eye out to help make sure something like that doesn't happen here.

I would equate this to EU by saying I don't believe someone in charge of determining loot mechanisms (what loots what even) should be able to play. Obviously MA should have test accounts on the real servers. Should an artist whose only responsibility is to create models be able to play? I don't see why not but others obviously would have a problem with that.

 

[Tass]

I just don't see why people who have given us no reason to distrust them should have to delete their avatars.

For the same reasons...

...the judge who has given no reason to distrust him should not judge in a case where his wife is accused

... the referee in a football match who has given no reason to distrust him should not bet on the result of the game

... the politician who has given no reason to distrust him should not decide over the road to be built when being the owner of the company who would build the road

You can find 1000s of examples in everyday life. It's common sense, it just has not arrived in EU yet.

 

[Karmic]

He should be allowed enjoying the game as long as the way he's enjoying the game does not conflict with ethics, common sense and the vitality of the game.

...

Doesn't matter. It's common sense to avoid conflict of interest and the possibilty to abuse power.

This is contradictory, you say he should be able to enjoy the game but then he shouldn't because there is the potential for abuse of power. I am not saying the potential is not there either mind you, if ND or one of his employees were to be the first to discover uber UL weapon it should go straight to the TT (it will be recycled right!). If ND were to, say, buy up all the pearl sand in the auction a week before an update where awesome (L) gun bluprint drops that has pearl sand as a major component and he crafts that or resells the sand for a profit he should be banned from the game and have his partnership status revoked.

I don't see ND doing this or that people have accused him of doing this. I do see an issue with him or his immediate employees owning land.

...the judge who has given no reason to distrust him should not judge in a case where his wife is accused

... the referee in a football match who has given no reason to distrust him should not bet on the result of the game

... the politician who has given no reason to distrust him should not decide over the road to be built when being the owner of the company who would build the road

But it sounds more like people are saying

a Judge should not be able to sue someone in court
a referee should not be allowed to play football
a politician should not exist.

I only agree with one of those.

 

[Sirhc]

I had a feeling something like this would happen sooner or later. Long ago I said my piece about conflict of interest and sadly nothing was done about it then and nothing will be done about it now with that in mind my own interest in EU is getting less and less each day.

Its hard enough in this Virtual Universe to compete with other players playing on the up and up, let alone the exploiters and whether its true or not but the perception of inside information. I can't say if it is or is not but it starts to look that way and there have always been hints and blantantly obvious shit since PE.

I can't help but think that those who have been around since PE are just fed up with the crap. I know I am. I also know if I suddenly became an employee of FPC or MA or ND studios I would bow out of anything to do with EU personally for entertainment or gain since now its my business. MA takes enough from us and just giving an air allowing them to double dip and take more...........well I can only crab so long. Overall its just a matter of Ethics and its not just for Planet partners policing themselves but MA taking a stance on it and not tolerating it.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Kitty

First off I do depo, but that's really beside the point.
Second, I do agree with you about MA needing to be more transparent. After all this entire discussion could be for nothing because they already have rules governing planet partner avatars. Maybe they can only receive loot below a max tt value or something. Transparency would certainly help everyone.

My issue is with the people making this a personal attack against ND's integrity, something he has never given us a reason to question. See a lot of people are finding ND and his associates guilty of committing an offence that hasn't even happened yet. That is where my problem is.

 

[Lavawalker]

My issue is with the people making this a personal attack against ND's integrity, something he has never given us a reason to question. See a lot of people are finding ND and his associates guilty of committing an offence that hasn't even happened yet. That is where my problem is.

He wins a medal, that is the whole point of clearing conflict of interests
Your problem will be solved, it is not about if it "has" occured, it is about if it "can" occur.
ND integrity, whether he be a goodie two shoes or an evil bastard has nothing to do with it, at all !

I think you will find the integrity of the game being played being RCE is bigger than ND.
That is what is in jeopardy atm

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Just because

He wins a medal, that is the whole point of clearing conflict of interests
Your problem will be solved, it is not about if it "has" occured, it is about if it "can" occur.
ND integrity, whether he be a goodie two shoes or an evil bastard has nothing to do with it, at all !

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will As per kitties post we need MA to make the rules for Planet partners clear. Until then I will continue to defend ND;
First because I have no reason to distrust him.
Second, I am working on the assumption that there are rules in place that prevent him or his associates from using their inside knowledge to gain to much of an advantage.

 

[Lavawalker]

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will As per kitties post we need MA to make the rules for Planet partners clear. Until then I will continue to defend ND;
First because I have no reason to distrust him.
Second, I am working on the assumption that there are rules in place that prevent him or his associates from using their inside knowledge to gain to much of an advantage.

Just because is a lol. It doesn't matter, conflict of interests are what they are.

And yes, MA needs to set proper guidelines such as is the case with FPC already having them in place - Fact !,
Such is the case that Ozi is following suit with, with his planet - Fact !
Such is the case assumptively speaking that Cyrene is also following suit with - Unknown.

Such is the case that ND & Staff should also be following suit with.

What makes them above any other planet partner ? Answer, nothing !

It is about the integrity of the financial environment we play in, people don't give a flying fuck who ND is in reality, as long as he does not disrupt the integrity of the financial environment he is involved in with others, then all is good.

 

[jod]

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will As per kitties post we need MA to make the rules for Planet partners clear. Until then I will continue to defend ND;
First because I have no reason to distrust him.
Second, I am working on the assumption that there are rules in place that prevent him or his associates from using their inside knowledge to gain to much of an advantage.

But apparently theres nothing to defend

There are very few posts in here saying that something rotten has occurred,the large majority of the posts are saying eliminate the chance of a conflict of interest so nothing can occur and then no one will have anything to complain about.

Why wait for something obvious to occur before doing anything about it,nip it in the bud before it has a chance to go sour.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

not if

But apparently theres nothing to defend

There are very few posts in here saying that something rotten has occurred,the large majority of the posts are saying eliminate the chance of a conflict of interest so nothing can occur and then no one will have anything to complain about.

Why wait for something obvious to occur before doing anything about it,nip it in the bud before it has a chance to go sour.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure

Not if that prevention means he has to delete his avatar. Saying that they have to eliminate the chance is insinuating that ND will take advantage of that chance. And it's assuming that there are not rules already in place to prevent that. You see, until MA tells us what the rules are their is no point in even insinuating that ND will cheat.

 

[Lavawalker]

Not if that prevention means he has to delete his avatar. Saying that they have to eliminate the chance is insinuating that ND will take advantage of that chance. And it's assuming that there are not rules already in place to prevent that. You see, until MA tells us what the rules are their is no point in even insinuating that ND will cheat.

You think you have an answer for everything.
It is not about if he will, it is if he can.

Much like developing his own playground on another partners world not owned by him at all (Not even in partnership with david post) and having it linked to his account for personal gain.

Not cheating the system at all, no ....

I think you should go away and do some proper research on conflicts of interest then come back to the discussion.

Many here are looking out for ND, even though it is seen as an attack, it is to prevent him, limit his ability to "possibly" cheat, to "possibly" push the boundaries.

As a kid, did your mother ever tell you not to do something, what did you do ? How far did you push the boundaries because they were there to be pushed ?

 

[Infinity01]

.....Until then I will continue to defend ND;
First because I have no reason to distrust him.

This is perfectly fine, and no one can argue against you !

Just because something can happen doesn't mean it will .

When there is a chance of doing harm...one makes every attempt to to prevent it...one just don't wait and pray...that's why we've rules/laws in soc..

Second, I am working on the assumption that there are rules in place that prevent him or his associates from using their inside knowledge to gain to much of an advantage.

Why would you just assume.... when you can make sure it is there.... looks like you want a way out under the pretext of ignorance in case something goes wrong....

In fact, this is one way of the most common way corporate criminanls try to escape when they get caught

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

You think you have an answer for everything.
It is not about if he will, it is if he can.

Much like developing his own playground on another partners world and having it linked to his account for personal gain.

Not cheating the system at all, no ....

I think you should go away and do some proper research on conflicts of interest then come back to the discussion.

Many here are looking out for ND, even though it is seen as an attack, it is to prevent him, limit his ability to "possibly" cheat, to "possibly" push the boundaries.

As a kid, did your mother ever tell you not to do something, what did you do ? How far did you push the boundaries because they were there to be pushed ?

I know what a conflict of interest is, and I know there is one here.
Evidently I would rather assume someone is innocent until they actually do commit a crime. You on the other hand would rather not take that risk, and remove the chance. We could argue about this but greater men then us have argued these ideology's for years. So on that point we might swell just agree to disagree.

 

[jod]

Not if that prevention means he has to delete his avatar. Saying that they have to eliminate the chance is insinuating that ND will take advantage of that chance. And it's assuming that there are not rules already in place to prevent that. You see, until MA tells us what the rules are their is no point in even insinuating that ND will cheat.

Its not insinuating anything.
Have you ever read in the fine print of a promotional competition 'offer not available to employees or family of employees'?
I know at least here in Australia it is on every promotional fine print.

Thats not insinuating that the company thinks all their employees are dodgy or even that they 'might' be if given enough temptation its just removing that temptation all together and giving a sense of openness and peace of mind to the potential customer.

It just makes good business sense.

Personally I've seen no evidence to presume there is a policy in place and more reason to presume there either isn't one or it's inadequate or isn't being enforced.

 

[Lavawalker]

I know what a conflict of interest is, and I know there is one here.
Evidently I would rather assume someone is innocent until they actually do commit a crime. You on the other hand would rather not take that risk, and remove the chance. We could argue about this but greater men then us have argued these ideology's for years. So on that point we might swell just agree to disagree.

Ok so you know there is a conflict of interest, do you know there are laws governing them in society.
That is the point of this thread, case closed.

He is not above the law and to say it should not be applied to him is rubbish.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

Infinity

You missed the part where I said until MA makes the rules clear to everyone I am working on the assumption that there are rules already in place. I will push for MA to be more transparent. If it turns out that there is absolutely nothing governing Planet partners then you'll see me start pushing for rules.

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

depending on the country and business type

Ok so you know there is a conflict of interest, do you know there are laws governing them in society.
That is the point of this thread, case closed.

He is not above the law and to say it should not be applied to him is rubbish.

Different country's have different laws on what constitutes criminal conflict of interest. And I would think that ND is smart enough to learn from his fathers mistakes.
If that info is incorrect then I blame Forbes.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

I told em no sleep till u find them sharks...went missing after launch..

Word is they found em and got attacked!!!

Damn ferocious sharks! I guess I can't blame em for defending themselves, woulda done the same myself...

They forgot of course they were gonna make discoveries..

Good thing in my opinionmthat everyone knows they work for NEVERDIE Studios

Can't get any more transparent than that.. That way if they loot something rare and valuable you will be the first to know about it..

I don't stand for secret avatars at my company! I like to keep an eye on things!

Apparently there is something in the water at Neverdie Studios. Please contact your public service utility immediately.

 

[Calin]

After having read all posts in this thread I just have to throw in my 2 cents.

MA, please put something in place to limit the possibility of conflict of interest. If something already exists, please let us know what the details are. It would make me, and I'm sure a lot of other depositers, much more comfortable putting money into EU.

I think this should be done in general. I don't care who the Planet Partner, developer, player, employee, or whatever is. It just needs to be strong and even across the board for everyone.

(I passed out a fair bit of +rep in this thread. It took a lot of effort to not -rep a few people, but I figured if i did then I'd have to put up with their childish response. I think you can guess who you are.)

 

[Corey 'Greyfox']

After having read all posts in this thread I just have to throw in my 2 cents.

MA, please put something in place to limit the possibility of conflict of interest. If something already exists, please let us know what the details are. It would make me, and I'm sure a lot of other depositers, much more comfortable putting money into EU.

I think this should be done in general. I don't care who the Planet Partner, developer, player, employee, or whatever is. It just needs to be strong and even across the board for everyone.

(I passed out a fair bit of +rep in this thread. It took a lot of effort to not -rep a few people, but I figured if i did then I'd have to put up with their childish response. I think you can guess who you are.)

Hey you didn't give me rep, I am gonna neg. rep you for that!!! J/k You pretty nicely sum up this entire thread

 

[GoNi]

If someone builds a house, you want to say he is not allowed to live in this house himself?

ND is a player, let him play.

Does he get advantage of insider knowledge.
Definately yes, and its not the first time (remember the banks, and coincidential registration of entropiabank webside, 2 days befor anybody else had knowledge that banks will be introduced)

What I said about ND counts for every of his employees that are EU players, too.

Its the old story and its a neverending story.
Live with it, or leave.
Don´t think this will ever change.

 

[~CHOPPER~]

If someone builds a house, you want to say he is not allowed to live in this house himself?


.

That's a poor analogy. A house doesn't drop nice cash prizes by living in them

 

[hogfather]

What really amazes me in this thread, is that almost everyone is against ND and his team using known characters that are essentialy monitored by all the community, but are perfectly ok in the knowledge that MA's personel does have secret Avi's that might figure on the hof list all the time without us knowing who they are. Let alone having second accounts 'at home' that MA doesn't know about as was stated above.

Got to love the irony...

 

[Nihilist]

That's a poor analogy. A house doesn't drop nice cash prizes by living in them

If someone builds a house, you want to say he is not allowed to live in this house himself

who wants to live with their land lord?

 

[Infinity01]

Frankly, yes!

But for me it's not about NeverDie or any other particular individual who could theoretically profit from insider knowledge through being a Planet owner/partner/developer.

It is the general principle that no Planet owner/partner/developer should be allowed to own an avatar that is able to participate in in-game activities that involve gaining loot.

NeverDie may be whiter-than-white but I think we need some clear rules and boundaries on this issue or we'll see more threads like this, more suspicion and more dis-affected players leaving EU.

Exactly, can't agree with your more.
Personally, I don't like NDs' taste, and most likely. he won't like mine either... and nothing is wrong with that!
But, I do like his vision for the future of virtual entertainment world...and wish him every success in that regard...