Why Looting Other Players is Not Theft

[Shadowsong]

You are being warned that you are entering an area where different rules regarding permissible gameplay apply - do with it what you will.



Miles

What are those different rules? Wait.... it's theft, isn't it? People can steal your stuff, that's the difference.

..
.
.
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Meh, just busting your chops Miles, no harm, no foul.

 

[Fifth]

There's a deeper meaning behind what's happening in PVP-L. It becomes painfully clear seeing people strenuously wriggling past logic - because it's frightening to die.
Nothing wrong with that feeling, this is 100% natural. The possibility of being murdered and robbed has to be frightening. All the worse if it happens against your will, but... in the end of the day, can it ever really happen any other way?

Lets face it, all the talk about lost peds, moral values and legal finesses is only a smokescreen. If you are perfectly honest with yourself, the core of all this resentment is fear. Fear makes you more aggressive than you normally are, and less logical than you normally are.

But here's a catch: this is a virtual realm, nothing inside here is real... besides your fear.
It's an unique chance to face your fears in safe (virtual) environment, try to overcame them or at least get to know yourself a little better.


If you take all the legal babble away form ToU, what remains is a simple act of agreeing to the new rules.
You can always accept ToU but still try to keep "your own ruleset". In fact many people are doing this. But it doesn't change anything legally, all you lose is your own ability to enjoy the entertainment to the fullest... Shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Profit]

What are those different rules? Wait.... it's theft, isn't it? People can steal your stuff, that's the difference.

...

rule
   [rool] noun, verb, ruled, rul·ing.
noun
1.
a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement, etc.: the rules of chess.

...

steal
   [steel],verb, stole, sto·len, steal·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, especially secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.

...

theft (θɛft)

— n
1. criminal law the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession

Looting someone in PVP is not theft. It is neither against the rules (law) nor is it "dishonest"; contrarily it is rather transparent and encouraged by those who make and enforce the rules/law (MA). We are given the permission and right to do so.

You cannot argue that.
Morally wrong, sure - if you want to call it that, do! By all means - but certainly not theft.

............................. ............................. .............................
............................. ............................. .............................

-"911 can I help you?"

"Yes... *gasp* I've just been... *gasp* robbed..."

-"Ok ma'am, calm down, where are you and what happened?"

"I'm at xxx,xxx xxx,xxx Amethera... *gasp* I went into PVP4 and... *gasp* someone shot me andstole my lyst!"

-"Ma'am, please stay with me, did you say you've been shot?! Amethera? Someone stole... your lyst?"

"*gasp* ...in Entropia - it's a game - *gasp* foudil shot me... and he took my stones! *gasp*"

-"Wait a minute ma'am, let me see if I understand; you're playing a computer game?"

"Yes... *gasp* but it's real, and like everything has real money value *gasp*..."

-"... and someone stole your belongings..? ...your game ...uuuh, items? ...or?"

"Yes... *gasp* you see there's lootable PVP areas, and like *gasp* I went into one and he took my stuff!!!! *gasp*"

-"Let me get this right; you're playing a computer game, where you can enter certain areas within which someone is allowed the opportunity to take your virtual items, with your full cooperation and understanding... and you'd like to press charges...?"

"*gasp* yes, plea..."

*clunk*
*beep beep beep beep*

............................. ............................. .............................
............................. ............................. .............................

What's next? PVP = murder?

 

[Audrey Cheerful]

-"Let me get this right; you're playing a computer game, where you can enter certain areas within which someone is allowed the opportunity to take your virtual items, with your full cooperation and understanding... and you'd like to press charges...?"

You should have worked in the perfect symmetry between players who engage in consensual pvp. The caller agreed to a fight in which he/she lost in.

 

[Mega]

Lootable space is unbalanced and F.U.B.A.R.

Next Island being the first casualty.

Cyrene will probably be next.


Discuss all you want, the reality will be apparent before long.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Next Island being the first casualty.

Cyrene will probably be next.

LOL there are so many other reasons that Next Island did not go well that I can not even bother to list them


And why the hell would Cyrene of all planets go bust? Not only do they seem to have a lot of resources, but they have only done a soft launch so far...

 

[Profit]

Lootable space is unbalanced and F.U.B.A.R.

Next Island being the first casualty.

Cyrene will probably be next.


Discuss all you want, the reality will be apparent before long.

This isn't a discussion about pros and cons.
It's a discussion outlining why looting other players is not theft.

 

[Mega]

LOL there are so many other reasons that Next Island did not go well that I can not even bother to list them


And why the hell would Cyrene of all planets go bust? Not only do they seem to have a lot of resources, but they have only done a soft launch so far...

We shall see. Wont we?

for Profits post, I see "lootable non avoidable zones like space" as "pickpocket friendly areas"

So yes, theft but allowed by the developers.



The choice is Adapt or Withdraw....

 

[Profit]

Please read.
Sick of repeating.

 

[Mega]

My personal opinion is MA haven't just shot themselves in the foot with this PVP space business, they've gone for the groin.

95% + of players couldn't give a rats arse about PVP, check the "Killing Spree" HOF table for evidence of this, it has 4 names in it. When it was just for fun in Twin 9.4 Octagon it would be at least over 30 per day.

Terrible.

Need an urgent reappraisal.

 

[FallenAngel]

My personal opinion is MA haven't just shot themselves in the foot with this PVP space business, they've gone for the groin.

95% + of players couldn't give a rats arse about PVP, check the "Killing Spree" HOF table for evidence of this, it has 4 names in it. When it was just for fun in Twin 9.4 Octagon it would be at least over 30 per day.

Terrible.

Need an urgent reappraisal.

didnt they nerf skills gained from ring pvp? im trying to remember, so many nerfs, so tiny a brain. also the loss of a portion of ammo used being returned as loot and vehicles seems to have added to the reduction in planetside pvp.
seemingly strange decisions from MA's point of view since pvp and ring skilling caused quite a lot of decay.

 

[GeneralGrievous]

This thread is going off like a match to gasoline! and +rep to Profit for the 911 call

As I understand it..

You are warned about PVP and looting.

There are perfectly safe methods of travel, that are much
cheaper than the previous methods of TP'ing from planet to planet.

So everyone has a choice. Fly safe... or not.

Pirates are gonna get a bad rap, that's a given, and anyone who chooses to do it should have a thick skin to cope with any verbal bashings they get. I mean people complain when they get no loot on planet, so they are gonna rant when they get looted in pvp.

You could call it theft, of course, just like you could call the fella with 2kpeds of loot on them in a sleipnir in space a fool. Why not choose a safe method of transport? As I understand it there are safe flights every day.

Although I don't think calling it theft would stand up in court, which brings us back to the warning you get.

Perhaps it comes down to awareness of the available services.

Most of what I say obviously applies to space PVP, but as for PVP4 on planet you don't have to buy the toxic shot or go into the PVP4 area.

 

[Spawn]

Please read.
Sick of repeating.

So is the other side Profit.. Nor alien put it like it is.. there are two sides to this story, and everybody has the right to his own opinion or side if you will. Both sides will never agree. Lootable space will always be a source of anger between those sides, and that comes on Mindark's plate. It's not because it is lootable, but because there is no choice to go around it. (like you can with pvp4) But I have repeated that part like a gazillion times already too.. and I am Sick of repeating it. Like you are.

 

[Profit]

So is the other side Profit.. Nor alien put it like it is.. there are two sides to this story, and everybody has the right to his own opinion or side if you will. Both sides will never agree. Lootable space will always be a source of anger between those sides, and that comes on Mindark's plate. It's not because it is lootable, but because there is no choice to go around it. (like you can with pvp4) But I have repeated that part like a gazillion times already too.. and I am Sick of repeating it. Like you are.

I'm only saying PVP-L is not theft, and it isn't. I've proven that and you cannot argue it.
The moral high ground, personal opinions, who's on what side, etc... of PVP-L, that you guys are talking about, has nothing to do with what I'm saying (or what this topic is about).
Like PVP-L, don't like PVP-L... but, PVP-L is not theft.
That's a fundamentally very basic, understandable and unquestionable statement when looked at logically.
No grey area.

Theft is against the law, PVP-L is not against ANY law ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, EVER.
Nutshell.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Theft is against the law

Except when it isnt. You are still conflating the act of theft with the laws about that act.

 

[OZtwo]

Theft is against the law, PVP-L is not against ANY law ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, EVER.
Nutshell.

See that's the problem. Since this is so new it's never been really looked at legally. Who is at fault here? MA. MA has given us this where most will look at it as not stealing from others because MA says it's ok. Almost sounds like a little kid saying "I do it, it's ok because mommy said it was alright".

What's more, MA could be shut down due to this. Why I always said that MA only has PVP-L space to try and get on the news again. When they do hit the news, they will have some story line about how they are trying to fix it and soon it will be non lootable and that they are sorry for the problems they have caused -- more or less.

And on the other side this issue is really being fought over since a lot will say that Pirates can't make money, so it's not stealing. But that wasn't the idea. The idea was that pirates could make it big in this game. They could make a LOT of money. Now the question is, if they could make a lot of money what do you think some would do? withdraw it? Convert that ingame money into real world money? How did they get that money? Did they loot mobs? Did they get that money from MA? No, they got that money from other players who put a LOT of money into the game. That is stealing and MA is at fault here.

 

[Profit]

Except when it isnt. You are still conflating the act of theft with the laws about that act.

Theft is a legal term. How can it be confused, it is what it is.
In this case, it's not theft as it is not the "act of taking another person's property without that person's permission or consent".

How is it that you do not understand?
You use conflate out of context, so perhaps english isn't your primary form of communication which would explain why you are labeling this act as "theft" when in fact it definitely is not.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Theft is not just a legal term. My English is fine but thanks for your concern.

 

[Profit]

Theft is not just a legal term. My English is fine but thanks for your concern.

Well, if you truly understand the definition of "theft", you would not use it to define what is happening in PVP-L. Since you do use it in this context, it's obvious that at the very least, you don't understand the meaning of the word.

No offense, just simple logic.

Here: https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=d....,cf.osb&fp=e3ea13f2fea9acba&biw=1280&bih=823

Educate yourself.

Theft = stealing = larceny. None of those words apply to PVP-L in any context.
None.

 

[tamlin]

But here's a catch: this is a virtual realm, nothing inside here is real... besides your fear.

Say again?

It's about actual money. How would you like it if someone IRL stuck a gun under your nose and at gunpoint forced you to hand over all your carried belongings? Hell, let's make it more like EU - they pull an M60 and shreds your car with, then they rob you. Would you still say "It's only fear"?

 

[Profit]

Say again?

It's about actual money. How would you like it if someone IRL stuck a gun under your nose and at gunpoint forced you to hand over all your carried belongings? Hell, let's make it more like EU - they pull an M60 and shreds your car with, then they rob you. Would you still say "It's only fear"?

How is that anything like PVP-L?
I'll answer; it's not.

Why? I underlined parts of your comment, to give you a clue.

Were you forced into this (PVP-L) situation? No.
Is this IRL? No.

Is this an unlawful act of taking someone's property* or belongings? No.
Therefore; Is this theft? NO.


*you don't own anything in EU anyway, so please explain how something you have no rights of ownership over, can be stolen from you.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Well, if you truly understand the definition of "theft", you would not use it to define what is happening in PVP-L. Since you do use it in this context, it's obvious that at the very least, you don't understand the meaning of the word.

No offense, just simple logic.

Here: https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=d....,cf.osb&fp=e3ea13f2fea9acba&biw=1280&bih=823

Educate yourself.

So the very first defn in that link:
"The action or crime of stealing"

You do see the use of "or" right? Theft is an action or it's a crime. So there are actions and there are crimes that are both theft. Oh my god, a term has more than one meaning?

Many of the definitions in that link include references to law or unlawful but quite a few do not. For example:
"The wrongful taking of the property of another. It is a broad term and includes larceny, pilfering, hold-up, robbery and pick-pocketing."

"Dishonest appropriation of property without the owner’s consent, with intent to deprive them of its use, either temporarily or permanently"

Enough of the petty insults please. If you are going to claim you are merely being logical then you should ditch the ad hominen remarks. It's quite clear that even the links you post demonstrate that theft is not just a legal term. I don't think it's justifiable to pick and choose the ones that suit your arguement.

 

[Nor Alien]

Say again?

It's about actual money. How would you like it if someone IRL stuck a gun under your nose and at gunpoint forced you to hand over all your carried belongings? Hell, let's make it more like EU - they pull an M60 and shreds your car with, then they rob you. Would you still say "It's only fear"?

I would just press T and come back with a bigger gun!!

 

[Profit]

so the very first defn in that link:
"the action or crime of stealing"

you do see the use of "or" right? Theft is an action or it's a crime. So there are actions and there are crimes that are both theft. Oh my god, a term has more than one meaning?

Many of the definitions in that link include references to law or unlawful but quite a few do not. For example:
"the wrongful taking of the property of another. It is a broad term and includes larceny, pilfering, hold-up, robbery and pick-pocketing."

"dishonest appropriation of property without the owner’s consent, with intent to deprive them of its use, either temporarily or permanently"

enough of the petty insults please. If you are going to claim you are merely being logical then you should ditch the ad hominen remarks. It's quite clear that even the links you post demonstrate that theft is not just a legal term. I don't think it's justifiable to pick and choose the ones that suit your arguement.

lol

I'ma just leave y'all to continue, "you can't save everybody".

 

[Aeris_is_back]

Never thought this thread would make it so far!


Really dose not matter how you choose to define something like this...

in the end I have your stuffs and you don't

This make you mad bro?


Space Pony's...

 

[tayra]

Just to throw a rather large spanner in the works, and give you all something to think about, enjoy this.



Real world cash - regardless of which currency it is, is OWNED by the government that authorised the design and use of it. It is exactly the same as PED - you dont own it.

Real world Bank accounts - the cash you deposit to these is not held in a little cubby hole marked "Mr. Smith", in fact if everyone wanted to hold "their" cash, they couldnt. There is not enough PHYSICAL money for for this to happen in any country.


Given these 2 facts , all real world money is neither owned by the public, and the vast majority is "virtual". Therefore , one could argue, any real world "Theft" or "Intent to permenantly deprive" could be dismissed on the basis of the fact that you ( the victim) never really owned the money in the first place and that anything taken from a bank account was not a physical item that could be stolen to start with.

We all are aware that there are thousands of legal precedents proving this to be untrue in every country. Even in our virtual world of EU this is true. MA take hacking of accounts and scamming very seriously, they take exploitation of bugs and glitches very seriously. Why? Because PED have both a virtual and a real world economic value.

The taking of virtual goods - all of which has a recognised monetary value in the Entropia Universe, Is in fact akin to the taking of real world goods, by virtue of the fact that MA ( entropias governing body/government ) have produced a currency to be used in their jurisdiction ( EU ), they set the Value of that currency against a "real world" currency in order to facilitate a BI-LATERAL currency exchange ( PED to USD and USD to PED). This then confirms, without doubt, that PED have real world monetary value (USD), and consequently all goods with a recognised/stated PED value have a real world monetary value (USD).

Now... If everywhere on this planet, and everywhere in cyberspace ( of which EU is a part ) has laws governing theft and intent to permenantly deprive, EU's space must also fall under those laws. While it is not "patrolled" by law enforcement, acts committed in that area are still covered by the governing laws, exactly the same way that acts committed in a ghetto/slum/bad part of town are covered. If there is evidence of an unlawful act and proof of the culprit ( chat logs/ screen shots ) then there should also be an avenue by which the accussed can be prosecuted. As MA will not do anything about it, that leaves real world avenues.

Many will, and do say that taking goods in lootable PVP is ok because it is intended to be that way, That MA deliberately created an area where people could deprive others of their goods without consequence. A deliberate "lawless " zone. This is not true. The fact that only some goods are lootable proves that the area is governed by laws and not a deliberate "lawless zone". If it is in fact not lawless then any lack of governmental law would be covered by international "cyber" laws, and there are several that cover cyber theft.

We know that MA use these "cyber" laws themselves so obviously approve of using them. So if MA use these laws to protect their financial interests from cyber theft ( eg: the recent UL amps debacle) they cannot condone cyber theft from their customers, and as they have taken the role of government and law enforcement within the Entropia Universe, they must provide their virtual citizens with an avenue of prosecution for virtual crime. It is then up to the victim and their evidence to provide proof . Given that chat logs have been used by MA to prove or disprove claims by citizens/customers before they should be sufficient.



Something to think about....................

 

[Fifth]

If there is evidence of an unlawful act and proof of the culprit ( chat logs/ screen shots ) then there should also be an avenue by which the accussed can be prosecuted. As MA will not do anything about it, that leaves real world avenues.

-"911 can I help you?"

"Yes... *gasp* I've just been... *gasp* robbed..."

-"Ok ma'am, calm down, where are you and what happened?"

"I'm at xxx,xxx xxx,xxx Amethera... *gasp* I went into PVP4 and... *gasp* someone shot me andstole my lyst!"

-"Ma'am, please stay with me, did you say you've been shot?! Amethera? Someone stole... your lyst?"

"*gasp* ...in Entropia - it's a game - *gasp* foudil shot me... and he took my stones! *gasp*"

-"Wait a minute ma'am, let me see if I understand; you're playing a computer game?"

"Yes... *gasp* but it's real, and like everything has real money value *gasp*..."

-"... and someone stole your belongings..? ...your game ...uuuh, items? ...or?"

"Yes... *gasp* you see there's lootable PVP areas, and like *gasp* I went into one and he took my stuff!!!! *gasp*"

-"Let me get this right; you're playing a computer game, where you can enter certain areas within which someone is allowed the opportunity to take your virtual items, with your full cooperation and understanding... and you'd like to press charges...?"

"*gasp* yes, plea..."

*clunk*
*beep beep beep beep*

All this legal jawboning reminds me again why lawyers and thieves stand in one line in hell...

 

[Aeris_is_back]

That's all great...



Winning pony is still Winning.

 

[tayra]

Funny......... But as you may or may not be aware, there a monetary values applied to cases to be prosectuted . A few Lyst stones would not warrant the time or cost to justify the engagement of a solicitor, but several combined cases may well be worthwhile.

Larger "lootings" may be suitable to prosecute, the Ruga example given earlier for example.

Generally no-one bothers get a solicitor/lawyer if their daily newspaper gets stolen, that doesnt stop the person taking the paper from being a thief however. Nor does it preclude the possibility of being charged with theft, even though it is just a cheap newspaper, should the original owner wish to go to all that trouble and expense.

If the evidence is there that you took something that does not belong to you, with intent to deprive the true owner of the monetary value of said goods, then you run the risk of being held criminally liable.

However you look at it, the risk is very real that you may end up in a lot of trouble. MA wont help, if fact would be legally required to supply chat logs etc. if legally ordered by a court of law.

Nor does it change the fact that taking someone elses goods without their express permission and with intent to permenantly deprive them of those goods/monetary value is theft.

 

[FallenAngel]

H
Is this IRL? No.

Is this an unlawful act of taking someone's property* or belongings? No.
Therefore; Is this theft? NO.


*you don't own anything in EU anyway, so please explain how something you have no rights of ownership over, can be stolen from you.

while i agree with the people that say lootable PvP is part of the game and different to real world theft i think you are mistaken in the rest of your thinking. In the netherlands two teens were prosecuted for beating up another teen to force him to log into a game and hand over his gear, on appeal the lawyers argued that there were no aggravating circumstances to the assault because the items were virtual so no theft occurred, they also argued that they had no real value so no theft occurred, the supreme court ruled that these items had real value purely on the basis of the time and energy the teen had spent on gaining them. And this was in a game where there was no virtual economy with a direct tie to a real world currency. Of course the circumstances are different, i just wanted to point out that just because MA says you dont own anything in game and the items are virtual does not mean that the law will see it that way.

http://news.yahoo.com/online-game-theft-earns-real-world-conviction-133501758.html