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Does Damage to PEC Matter?

Someone just go hunt with Swine Deluxe + Evil and compare it to RJ + Dante over 500K+ PED spent on medium-sized mobs...

SETTLE IT ONCE AND FOR ALL!
 
Hijacker27 said:
Someone just go hunt with Swine Deluxe + Evil and compare it to RJ + Dante over 500K+ PED spent on medium-sized mobs...

SETTLE IT ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Click to expand...

Then someone will ask for a bigger test just to settle it even more. It never ends! :dunce:
 
mrproper said:
Yes, it's just for confirmation, it's sufficiently large to show enough significance and I'm running several variations. It took me a week to do the one in the picture, I'm sorry it did not satisfy you, but it's quite enough for me, the data fits too well even with such a small sample. And it's 1000 mobs killed total. You calculate the precision error on that if you wish.

Did you read this one: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...176428-5-different-weapons-against-Argos-TEST ?

It's over 12000 ped, with 89.2% TT return with various weapons. You want more than that to convince you the true answer to this topic's title?
Click to expand...

Yeah then I wonder why I barely have any losses in my hunts, I really must be doing something wrong yes.
 
Silvia Universe said:
Yeah then I wonder why I barely have any losses in my hunts, I really must be doing something wrong yes.
Click to expand...

Well then, big grats!

I seem to lose 10% of my TT like everyone else. You should start a hunting log so we can bask in amazement at your success in defeating entropy :girl:

Meaning, you can't really be sure you are in the profit all the time, unless you check, right? That would be a very interesting exception to our entropian experiences...
 
Does Damage per pec matter?
Yes

Does higher damage per pec give better (%) TT returns?
No

Is it absurdly easy to test for statistical significance?
Yes

Will naysayers even attempt to test such a thing?
No
 
In my opinion dpp matters only in terms of how long it takes you to reach expectation. You can kill more mobs in the same amount of ped. So you get 1000 rolls of the dice instead of 900. Which means your statistical variance will be more likely to even out over that larger sample size.
 
Hijacker27 said:
Someone just go hunt with Swine Deluxe + Evil and compare it to RJ + Dante over 500K+ PED spent on medium-sized mobs...

SETTLE IT ONCE AND FOR ALL!
Click to expand...
I still want someone who is low level to test DlxE + E-Amp 15. :D
 
Silvia Universe said:
Yeah then I wonder why I barely have any losses in my hunts, I really must be doing something wrong yes.
Click to expand...

When you calculate return do on all turnover craft/mine/hunt, losses hunting could come back mining/crafting. Thats basically what i tracked for long time, always same % long term return on amp,ammo,probe,crafted tt; for me at least.

But overall if you enjoy what you doing and it's working carry on, experiment and try things. Out of 6 of us who tracked 1 of the six had an anomoly 4k-5k cobalt i think that put him heavily ahead tt (rest of us averaged 89-92% iirc). So i think there are server/mob loots maybe on a counter (every 100,000th chirpy killed or whatever, maybe triggered by right tool/weapon/area... not sure exactly) and thats only way i can explain away noob hofs etc that occur time to time.

Just being open about what i have found but whatever tests etc, people will hold onto their beliefs in many cases. Seen it many times.
 
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RobBuona said:
I still want someone who is low level to test DlxE + E-Amp 15. :D
Click to expand...

i'm pretty sure someone did. anyway, i see little to no differene in returns between runs using ADJ97 and CB19, i dont need artificially extreme tests to see what should show up as a clear differene between those setups.
 
aridash said:
i'm pretty sure someone did. anyway, i see little to no differene in returns between runs using ADJ97 and CB19, i dont need artificially extreme tests to see what should show up as a clear differene between those setups.
Click to expand...

I wish i had results like that, and not consistently seeing ~8% worse results when I go from 2.9 to 2.7 eco.
 
remontoire said:
I wish i had results like that, and not consistently seeing ~8% worse results when I go from 2.9 to 2.7 eco.
Click to expand...
Please show us your data.
 
mrproper said:
Well then, big grats!

I seem to lose 10% of my TT like everyone else. You should start a hunting log so we can bask in amazement at your success in defeating entropy :girl:

Meaning, you can't really be sure you are in the profit all the time, unless you check, right? That would be a very interesting exception to our entropian experiences...
Click to expand...

Lol why you say defeating Entropy??

That is exactly NOT what I try I don't chase globals and HOFS, cuz they don't mean shit, like someone said already Hoffing don't mean you profit or globalling.
I make sure I got steady returns and do something with the loot i get from hunting be it crafting or sell it.

I choose mobs that suit my levels so FAP and Armor decay stay under 5% of my total spend ammo on that run, and decay of weapon included ofc, I don't hunt above my level when I hunt alone.
And I make sure my run is long enough and hunt till I am out of ammo.

And I did track my findings for long time, somewhere I stopped with that but now I do track all again and NO I don't go share my data with others.
 
Silvia Universe said:
And I did track my findings for long time, somewhere I stopped with that but now I do track all again and NO I don't go share my data with others.
Click to expand...

Well then, my work here is done. I posted what I have and I'll post more as I get it, because the data doesn't give anyone any advantage if you share it. However, I can't continue the discussion in disagreement with you, if you can't provide your argument supporting evidence.

So at this point, I must assume you get 90% return like everyone else until proven different, making your claims of TT profit, the result of psychological bias, quoting Cerberus here:

Cerberus said:
Does Damage per pec matter?
Yes

Does higher damage per pec give better (%) TT returns?
No

Is it absurdly easy to test for statistical significance?
Yes

Will naysayers even attempt to test such a thing?
No
Click to expand...
 
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?168760-Noiseless-Hunting-Log
- over 350.000 PED cycled
- Total after 379 runs: -31 741 PED tt (91.58%), -6 971 PED w/ MU (98.15%)

Some images:
molisk_loot_test_283886.gif


preview.gif

feff_1_2_korss_base_comp.jpg
 
I think it's time to stop arguing if people do tests, no matter what
"side" they belong to.
I know both sides has done tests, the funny thing is that everyone
seem to have a slight difference in result.
So the question is, why is it like that?
My guess is that people do tests in different ways, if all tests
were done exactly the same, then we could argue to left or right... :silly2:

What parts do you include in your tests btw?
 
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Joat said:
I think it's time to stop arguing if people do tests, no matter what
"side" they are belong to.
I know both sides has done tests, the funny thing is that everyone
seem to have a slight difference in result.
So the question is, why is it like that?
My guess is that people do tests in different ways, if all tests
were done exactly the same, then we could argue to left or right... :silly2:
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was not aware of tests that show an advantage to picking higher eco weapons or better dmg/pec when loot returns are concerned. Could you please point me in the right direction?
 
mrproper said:
Sorry, I was not aware of tests that show an advantage to picking higher eco weapons or better dmg/pec when loot returns are concerned. Could you please point me in the right direction?
Click to expand...

Nope. :) If it had been my own tests, no problem. :)
And please don't come with some BS remark that they don't excist, they do, they
just aren't active at forum.
Both sides has shown both positive and negative outcome based on their belief,
I do know they don't do tests in similar way thou', so my guess it's the same
here.
This is why I take most tests with a 'pinch of salt', even my own, since the more
you think of gamemechanism, the more you need to include in tests... ;)
But since we don't know exactly how gamemechanism work, a lot are just guessing,
e.g, are damage and cost really connected, from a system p.o.v? ;)
 
People can test their own runs and write ages and pages about it....
However all tests done shows only the result for your own avatar ofc and you simply cannot compare them with others peoples tests because every one has their own skill based levels and they all show results based on your personal skill progress, resulting in different decay..
 
Silvia Universe said:
People can test their own runs and write ages and pages about it....
However all tests done shows only the result for your own avatar ofc and you simply cannot compare them with others peoples tests because every one has their own skill based levels and they all show results based on your personal skill progress, resulting in different decay..
Click to expand...

Thats why I wrote "... since the more you think of gamemechanism,
the more you need to include in tests..." ;)
Yep, I do agree, skills (and what they influence) is just another part
that needs to be included in test.
Thats also why I always say a test needs to be done over a full cycle,
which could take months, or even longer... ;)
 
Joat said:
Thats why I wrote "... since the more you think of gamemechanism,
the more you need to include in tests..." ;)
Yep, I do agree, skills (and what they influence) is just another part
that needs to be included in test.
Thats also why I always say a test needs to be done over a full cycle,
which could take months, or even longer... ;)
Click to expand...

Exactly :girl:
 
Example

Mob: 100 HP, regen 10 HP/sec
Weapon: reload 1 sec, damage 50 (50 dmg/sec)

What happens?
  1. Mob has full HP, you take away 50: 100 - 50 = 50HP left
  2. Mob regenerates just before you hit the next time, now it has: 50 + 10 = 60HP left
  3. You hit 2nd time, 10 HP left...
  4. ... so you have to hit 3rd time to kill the mob

Obviously, for this specific mob - either 60 dmg or 45 dmg weapon would be more effective, or weapon with slightly different reaload... 50 dmg/sec is simply "out of sync".

After coming back from this hunt you can stare at dmg/pec stats until the loss of pulse, they fail to describe the problem.

It's an extreme example ofc, in reality the "sync factor" is not so huge, but it's there and the magnitude can be greater than differences in dmg/pec between "most eco" and "worst eco" weapons.



Another example:

Probably most hunters have noticed that mobs tend to have a certain dmg/sec treshold - if you make higher damage (or faster) it like suppresses the mob so it hits you less often.

The effect of this one on the overall economy is indirect, but my point is - maybe our theories aren't so much wrong or right, maybe they simply too primitive.
 
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Joat said:
Nope. :) If it had been my own tests, no problem. :)
And please don't come with some BS remark that they don't excist, they do, they
just aren't active at forum.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not religious. I can't "believe" that some tests that support your side "exist" but they are magically just out of reach when needed to establish the truth. On the other hand I've shown over 5 major tests that show skills, eco, dmg/pec, armor/weapon/amp/fap selection, personal avatar stats and skills are completely meaningless in regards to loot tt return. These tests total almost 500.000 PED and show a 90% return rate consistently. Yet I am supposed to equally accept that there are some tests that everyone that disagrees with me has seen, and the theory that the data supports as I presented is not the actual truth.

Also, sorry Silvia Universe, you can't change belief with fact, yours is too strong and you seem to happily dismiss my extensive and well documented posts, while agreeing with any short sentence that supports your belief.

Again, I can't humanly do anything more to help the "eco bunch" to understand reality when their behavior is so superficial and ignorant.

Good luck and have fun.
 
e-lite said:
In the last picture it is very obvious that the imk2 has a clear advantage in economy and return over the korss400. Not what I had guessed, but interesting.
Click to expand...

Be aware that the first cluster of data points has lots of no loots (seen on the bottom axis) while average loot when it drops is higher, total loot including no loots is about the same as indicated by the diagonal line. The bigger costlier mobs do not have as many "no loots", thus their average value is lower.

And yes, I guessed wrong so many times, and have been corrected by experimental data. The feeling that your "guess" is correct is fed constantly by positive results and protected constantly by negative results. Only when using numbers and charts can our intellect overcome superstition.

Another weapon comparison is available in one of the links I posted previously.
 
mrproper said:

Also, sorry Silvia Universe, you can't change belief with fact, yours is too strong and you seem to happily dismiss my extensive and well documented posts, while agreeing with any short sentence that supports your belief.

Again, I can't humanly do anything more to help the "eco bunch" to understand reality when their behavior is so superficial and ignorant.

Good luck and have fun.
Click to expand...


You are exhausting... it's not a matter of believe it's all based on facts what I am trying to tell you...you mostly post stats of others yet fail to understand they don't comply to others nor to you nor to me.

If I check your tracker I wonder...do you hunt in team or how do you even track your runs?
Just leave it at this and go by your assumptions I go by mine and we are all happy.
 
Silvia Universe said:
You are exhausting... it's not a matter of believe it's all based on facts what I am trying to tell you...you mostly post stats of others yet fail to understand they don't comply to others nor to you nor to me.

If I check your tracker I wonder...do you hunt in team or how do you even track your runs?
Just leave it at this and go by your assumptions I go by mine and we are all happy.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to tell me? I was looking for some of your tests, or your links to someone else's tests that support your side. You don't have any. So?

Check the tracker as long as you want, pointing out I'm not a high solo roller doesn't improve the quality or strength of your void argument. You should perhaps also search for team names matching my society name.

Yes, that's what I said, you go by your assumptions and be happy, there is nothing I can discuss with you to convince you of anything so I won't try anymore. So good luck and have fun! But I won't be happy. Not at all. Because I failed to make people understand why they are playing the game wrong, and it's making me really sad.
 
mrproper said:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?168760-Noiseless-Hunting-Log
- over 350.000 PED cycled
- Total after 379 runs: -31 741 PED tt (91.58%), -6 971 PED w/ MU (98.15%)
/.../
Click to expand...
Skills are a tradeable resource gained while hunting, therefore it's a subtype of loot and should be included as part of the loot.
It's hard to imagine a system that fails to take into account the value of skills in it's balancing calculations, do you agree? Therefore, we should follow the same logic in our tests if we want to understand how the system works.

What i can see here is a really impressive testing of two weapons. Regretfully i don't know the skill level of the tester? If it's below lvl 100, we can see here comparison of maxed and not-maxed weapon, while failing to compare the actual total loot in both cases.
 
Fifth said:
Skills are a tradeable resource gained while hunting, therefore it's a subtype of loot and should be included as part of the loot.
It's hard to imagine a system that fails to take into account the value of skills in it's balancing calculations, do you agree? Therefore, we should follow the same logic in our tests if we want to understand how the system works.

What i can see here is a really impressive testing of two weapons. Regretfully i don't know the skill level of the tester? If it's below lvl 100, we can see here comparison of maxed and not-maxed weapon, while failing to compare the actual total loot in both cases.
Click to expand...
Ah, the skills. You're right. Skills are valuable, however...
- skill points have no TT value whatsoever
- skill gain depends on many factors that change with time and actions
- ESI TT is spent to extract skills, with a return rate of 90% (get the general idea? 90% on texturing/painting, 90% on skills, 90% on loot, 90% on everything, everybody do the dinosaur!)
- skill chip TT comes from ESI TT, skills have no value at tt yet, it's the ESI's value
- skill chips are sold for markup to other players (so all skills enter the Markup category over the ESI markup value, and not TT return)
- skill chips are inserted and the TT value is lost forever

So TT-wise, skills are a massive TT drain and have no value and can't affect the TT return rate in any way.

But as you can see in that hunter's log, the skills are posted and you can calculate his gain on them (if he posted them again, couldnt read the whole thread). Add that to the markups on his loot, and his 98.15% long-term ped return might be over 100%, making his EU experience profitable. But that's not due to TT return.

So if your focus is skill gain, then you need to look for something else as a priority instead of dmg/pec. The right weapons, the right mobs become more important. I fully agree with you in this sense.
 
mrproper said:
What are you trying to tell me? I was looking for some of your tests, or your links to someone else's tests that support your side. You don't have any. So?

Check the tracker as long as you want, pointing out I'm not a high solo roller doesn't improve the quality or strength of your void argument. You should perhaps also search for team names matching my society name.

Yes, that's what I said, you go by your assumptions and be happy, there is nothing I can discuss with you to convince you of anything so I won't try anymore. So good luck and have fun! But I won't be happy. Not at all. Because I failed to make people understand why they are playing the game wrong, and it's making me really sad.
Click to expand...
Stay strong and vigilant brother, there are people that are with you on this one.

Truth will always withstand!
(unless MA implements/changes how the system works lol)
 
Freelancer_Main said:
(unless MA implements/changes how the system works lol)
Click to expand...
It seems to have been this way for at least 5-6 years and people still play the game. 10% income on all and any player expense (including recycled loot)? Looks good on the financial report :)

Thanks for the support. We still have many things to learn!
 
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