VU 15 - "improvement" to decrease the MU even more aka eat some shrapnel, suckers

Completely did not understand you. We was talking about the fact that the changes in the game, particularly in the loot, affects to the income of 'investors'. Then I offered my ideas. How does this relate to you? If the changes I suggested, will help to increase the player base and economics? We can argue here, but have already done. Never mind that there depoed investors, but if it will help the game to get better, why not?

How are you gonna get new players who depo?
Market the game like we just 'stole' a few 15k$ investements from several players to level the playing field.. Please come invest & play!
 
How are you gonna get new players who depo?
Market the game like we just 'stole' a few 15k$ investements from several players to level the playing field.. Please come invest & play!
You did not read, I offered to compensate the loss of the players in the form of a gigantic TT value of replacement items. In this case, the company's reputation does not suffer, it is only the possible financial burden.

I dont think that owners will TT-ed these giant-TT-value L-FAP's. They will sold to other happy owners, depoed for it. After that, implementing the 5-ped Mod FAP (L) does not affect the price of old items
 
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Please, off-topic people, go elsewhere. Seems I need to be more concrete about it (forgot some people don't understand subtle hints). This thread is about V15 loot change and how it:
  • reduces the diversity of what stackables mobs loot in some cases by some 80 to 90%, and effect of this on MU
  • makes all maturities loot same stackables (completely eradicating the need to have maturities imho)
  • was not launched on all planets at the same time with no plan when it would be evened out
  • developers assumption that reducing drop of stackables will make the MU go up - completely missing the point that the main driver for MU should be value to use - if MU will go up too much, activity will go down...
  • how such drastic changes with no or little notification in advance reduce trust of long time players and virtual stock owners (lets not call it investing since this word has been attacked like 7 times by the same "semantician")

If you want another revolution, limited modfaps or general utopia or just can't quit to argue with impossible to reason with trolls, please create your own threads for it...
P.S. I would appreciate to see some moderator action. Does it have to go to really rude mode before you start acting? It should be clear most of the chatter is wildly offtopic.
 
I did read.. did you also think of those who bought one to run a service?
What's gonna happen to them?
IMO the only way to level out the fap issue is to revise the current L faps + skillgain, couse we all know it's impossible to skill to lvl 100 within 15 years.
What are you gonna do with those who tiered their faps?
Pay back the TT value?
Who's gonna pay the 15k$ when I say FUCK THIS MOVE & TT my 150k ped TT fap?
What if 5 ppl did that?
I'm starting to think none of your items ever got nerfed
Mine kinda have, I looted an UL HL15 wich stated 50/51 uses after being way over maxed.. they fixed it & made it 50/50 uses.. you have no idea how that made me feel..
Same goes for other items, change them to L & you'll have a shitstorm that will kill EU within a year
 
You did not read, I offered to compensate the loss of the players in the form of a gigantic TT value of replacement items. In this case, the company's reputation does not suffer, it is only the possible financial burden.

I dont think that owners will TT-ed these L-FAP's. They will sold to other happy owners, depoed for it. After that, implementing the 5-ped Mod FAP does not affect the price of old items

What was already comented by Kim, will never happen, and explained by different people including me, why it can´t happen without leading MA into bankrupt.
 
You did not read, I offered to compensate the loss of the players in the form of a gigantic TT value of replacement items.

Gewitter, this is important. If MA did this, the players could sell the item to the trade terminal for a gigantic TT amount, and it would be MA that would lose the money. As it stands currently, if someone buys the unlimited item in a trade, MA loses nothing. So your "solution" would cost MA literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 
girtsn,
Let it be as you wish, your topic now is free from me.
 
i personal believe that these changes are made to nerf the advance old uber players have on the new and medium players, old players who have tones of advantages till now, skill nerfed, old guns..etc etc. When i say medium are 5-10 years old players. Now ,discutions about diff views about any old or new type of marketing is free, but ultimately the best choice will be taking by MA, becouse they feel everything better then the players, in many ways, not in all ofc:))
 
For Kim...

Here's a good post to read...

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...Fix-Crafting&p=2921576&viewfull=1#post2921576

Instead of trying to reduce supply of stackables to "raise" their markups....why not try to improve their "demands"? (For crying out loud. :lolup:)

Cause seriously, do you even think the stackables' markups would rise if they aren't even useful in the first place? If there's no use for them, why would crafters even want them and at the "increased" markups?

Frankly speaking, most of the stuff that I want are stackables which I can USE to make stuff which are USEFUL for me to further my gameplay. (READ: As in USED in the MAKING of stuff which are usable in "HUNTING" and "MINING"...in other words, armors, weapons, faps, etc. Even if they are limited...and might not be very eco.)

However, at the present moment, the crafting economy still isn't quite made for that yet I believe. Most of what I'm looting today (from hunting) are still pretty useless to me imo.

Extractors? Please....I've got no "pressing" use for that...
Extra Ammo? Can't those be bought from Trade terminals? Redundant imo...
Paint Cans? Nope, sorry...try again...its useless stuff to me as well.
Hides? Same use and category as extractors.
Wools? What's their use again?
Animal Oils? Now there's "supposedly" some use there....but however, its still not very balanced now is it? Most of the useful blueprints out there, I believe, uses "high level" animal oils instead of the "low level" ones...even if the blueprint itself is supposedly to make a "low level" useful item. What's making it worse is the ability to find/loot blueprints that would even make use of them in the first place...

In my humble opinion, please do your best to "fix" the inter-relationship between hunters, miners and crafters first. If there's no working economy in the first place, there's no game so as to speak.
 
Frankly speaking, most of the stuff that I want are stackables which I can USE to make stuff which are USEFUL for me to further my gameplay. (READ: As in USED in the MAKING of stuff which are usable in "HUNTING" and "MINING"...in other words, armors, weapons, faps, etc. Even if they are limited...and might not be very eco.)

...

However, at the present moment, the crafting economy still isn't quite made for that yet I believe. Most of what I'm looting today (from hunting) are still pretty useless to me imo.

I see one mining global four years ago, 0 hunting globals, 0 crafting globals to date, with your forum account made in 2008, so to me it says you may not have too much actual experience collecting and selling decent volumes of loot.

Paint cans, hides, extractors, wools, animal oils, those are all useful, even if they often have low MU. Having an economy means you collect items and sell them to other players who use them, not that you use everything yourself... So instead of TTing those materials, collect them and sell them to the players who use them for crafting.

You could even try some crafting yourself with those extractors and hides that are hard to sell. Blueprints utilizing these items are plentiful and easy to get. If you're interested in making usable armors, weapons, and faps, you can collect the materials used to make those items, the BPs are already available. They mostly use mined resources but some use hunting loot as well. Check out entropedia or Bob the Builder to find BPs that use your loot. You can copy your entire inventory into the Inventory Wizard and it will tell you which BPs you have materials for.
 
Sorry skimmed through this as a complaint thread. Simple Supply and Demand issue here, MA thinks the MU will rise if they lower the supply but the demand is still there simple. It will align hunters to specific mobs if they hunt for their own resources. But as the hunters gravitate to the HIGHER current MU items the other stuff will fall of and their will be a demand for it. It has only been a few days WAY TO EARLY FOR COMPLINT POST!!!!! Especially with WoF starting up many not doing their normal thing to kill bots atm. In a month or two if this carries on I see a valid complaint.

V/R
Wildman
 
I will admit to being initially concerned by these changes, both current and proposed. However, I will reserve my final judgement and opinion until I see actual hard evidence and numbers.

That said, a couple of concerns/observations/questions.

1. We (SFE) have always based our business model on the markup of materials translating directly to the prices we set. The markup of stackables directly effects our cost to craft and if this rises too much, it is simply going to result in pricing things out of the market by making ALREADY high MU stackables even more so (such as Light Metal Plating for Lich).

2. Such changes, badly implemented (as has been in the past), will only serve to break peoples businesses and force them out of the pedcycle and likely out of the game. This will ripple quite considerably (estates empty->less demand for materials->less markup. It will also result in less deeds being bought/more deeds being sold and the ped withdrawn as opposed to being kept in-game and cycled.

3. You already have items that drop so rarely in both hunting and Mining that they have either a stupidly high markup (Dunkel, Ruga) or are just plain unavailable (Phasm Wool). Are you, as part of this "rebalancing" (if that is even the correct term?) looking to address such things? If not, you are just going to accentuate the current problems.

4. Coupled with Point 3, having those rare drops (in this case, that of armours) only required in certain parts of a set and therefore different materials to the rest (e.g. Orca Harness) is just plain daft. Are you going to address this with the rebalancing? (and don't get me started on bloody footguards! Will address this in another thread.)

5. I like the idea of Shrapnel -> Universal ammo, fantastic idea. However, it seems to me that with having Shrapnel dropping now, it makes ANY OTHER form of ammo in loot, pointless. As part of this, if it was my choice, I'd be adding Explosive ammo to the TT. The people that currently make a business out of selling Exp-ammo at least have the option of swapping the Shrapnel/Uni-ammo which is probably going to be a better used commodity (I'm guessing) than Exp-ammo anyway.

6. Also, if current ammo is still going to drop and Shrapnel is replacing some % of stackables AND you are capping the amount of stackables that drop, that seems like a double hit to the stackables (see point 1).

(Note: I'm not posting this to enter a debate, nor start an argument with anyone. All I'm doing is stating my opinion for MA/FPC. If you disagree with what I've posted, that is your right, but don't expect me to engage in a slanging match with you. I'm simply not interested. That said, IF you wish to have a civilised discussion, which I will welcome, please PM me)
 
Am I the only one who thinks that making all maturities drop same loot makes the maturity system completely redundant (as the defense&heal costs are typically higher)? Doesn't it make sense for higher maturities to have something different (better) in loot, to justify hunting them at all? The answer from Kim that the chance to loot more stackables as the maturity increases, is no justification at all, it is only logical that more peds spent result in more loot...

Of course, I am also frustrated about this because this change makes one of my 2 land areas redundant (one young maturities, the other dominant-alpha). But speaking as a hunter, if I knew that higher lvl mobs have more MU in them, I could benefit from my skills and knowledge. MA, you just removed all of that along with any confidence for stability as a LA owner by this change...
 
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Overall I like the change in loot tables and I feel confident that they will benefit EU in the long run.

What I don't like is that MA doesn't enforce this change on all planets.

Ever since VU15 I feel again like a true hunter. I have now a purpose to hunt different mobs, even made my own routine to cycle trough several mobs which drop oils that I feel will be soon in short supply.

Another thing that I like is how the oils the mobs drop are now based on some kind of combination between HP/dmg. Leaving aside a few exceptions(aurli/kreltin), a general rule I saw so far was that the "tougher" a mob is the higher tt oil it drops. This is how it should have been all along imo. It gives a reason to improve your avatar both in skills and in gear. Why would I hunt a tougher mob when I can get the same muscle oil that a noob gets from a combibo?

Overall, now, it doesn't feel anymore like the loot on every mob in the game looks 90% similar.

I understand girtsn point of view. He spent time and made investments to optimize his hunting gear, cycle power, even bought a LA to hunt a mob which used to drop nearly every useful oil in game. This turned him into a powerful player able to offer enough supply of all the "good" oils, obtaining the most benefit from their markup. Looking from this point of view, osse was an unbalanced mob and it's a good thing it got changed. What he didn't point out in his initial analysis is that in the new system, osseo still remains a very good mob to hunt. I know of only one other mob that drops heart oil and the spawn atm is very scarce. This means the investment girtsn made in LA didn't loose its value.

What girtsn can't make in the new system is hunt 24h a day osseo and be able to sell his loot at a decent speed. Instead of getting loot spread over different oils, he will get now mostly ammo, shrapnel and heart oil. Ammo he will tt and shrapnel he can use to hunt, but only gain 1% markup from it. There isn't enough demand of heart oil to keep up with his ability to gather it and that's the main problem imo. After cycling let's say 6k-7k ped a day, instead of being able to put 2 stacks of 500-800 ped of each oil, totaling between 2.5-4k ped in auction, he will have to put only 1-2 stacks of heart oil, totaling 300-800 ped.

I am sorry for you girtsn, but for me personally the change is beneficial.
 
Overall I like the change in loot tables and I feel confident that they will benefit EU in the long run.

What I don't like is that MA doesn't enforce this change on all planets.

Ever since VU15 I feel again like a true hunter. I have now a purpose to hunt different mobs, even made my own routine to cycle trough several mobs which drop oils that I feel will be soon in short supply.

Another thing that I like is how the oils the mobs drop are now based on some kind of combination between HP/dmg. Leaving aside a few exceptions(aurli/kreltin), a general rule I saw so far was that the "tougher" a mob is the higher tt oil it drops. This is how it should have been all along imo. It gives a reason to improve your avatar both in skills and in gear. Why would I hunt a tougher mob when I can get the same muscle oil that a noob gets from a combibo?

Overall, now, it doesn't feel anymore like the loot on every mob in the game looks 90% similar.

I understand girtsn point of view. He spent time and made investments to optimize his hunting gear, cycle power, even bought a LA to hunt a mob which used to drop nearly every useful oil in game. This turned him into a powerful player able to offer enough supply of all the "good" oils, obtaining the most benefit from their markup. Looking from this point of view, osse was an unbalanced mob and it's a good thing it got changed. What he didn't point out in his initial analysis is that in the new system, osseo still remains a very good mob to hunt. I know of only one other mob that drops heart oil and the spawn atm is very scarce. This means the investment girtsn made in LA didn't loose its value.

What girtsn can't make in the new system is hunt 24h a day osseo and be able to sell his loot at a decent speed. Instead of getting loot spread over different oils, he will get now mostly ammo, shrapnel and heart oil. Ammo he will tt and shrapnel he can use to hunt, but only gain 1% markup from it. There isn't enough demand of heart oil to keep up with his ability to gather it and that's the main problem imo. After cycling let's say 6k-7k ped a day, instead of being able to put 2 stacks of 500-800 ped of each oil, totaling between 2.5-4k ped in auction, he will have to put only 1-2 stacks of heart oil, totaling 300-800 ped.

I am sorry for you girtsn, but for me personally the change is beneficial.


I see your point and you pointed it out exactly, this is one player losing ped from the change complaining as this seems to be the only thread about this issue so far. Personally I like the change unless things change over the next couple of months I stand by MA on this one. The game wasn't designed to benefit one player but we know of a few who have with corporate help.
 
Your after release numbers have little correlation with reality. More like 100 to 300 peds heart oil which in comparison is nothing. And as said you had the different loot from different maturities before so this "more choice now" argument is invalid.
P.S. Also your pre release numbers are way off guess grass seems greener on the other side. MU oils were way more rare than you think I could never sell the quantities you are talking about.
After cycling let's say 6k-7k ped a day, instead of being able to put 2 stacks of 500-800 ped of each oil, totaling between 2.5-4k ped in auction, he will have to put only 1-2 stacks of heart oil, totaling 300-800 ped.
 
Your after release numbers have little correlation with reality. More like 100 to 300 peds heart oil which in comparison is nothing. And as said you had the different loot from different maturities before so this "more choice now" argument is invalid.
P.S. Also your pre release numbers are way off guess grass seems greener on the other side. MU oils were way more rare than you think I could never sell the quantities you are talking about.

Apologies if my numbers seem so way off, it was just an example.

You are more then welcome to provide real numbers so we can have an accurate picture of the situation :)
 
As for "more choice now" you can always hunt other mobs. There are quite a few good mobs since VU15 if you take the time to research.

What I understood from Kim is that now if you can get for example 2-300 ped a day of heart oil from osseo young-old, you might get 2 times more from higher maturities because their increase HP means higher average loot/drop -> higher chance one of those loots contains an oil.

On a side not:
I noticed that now I get more often oils with lower tt in loot compared to oils with higher tt. Even if my immediate reaction was to say that I get less high tt oils compare to lower tt oils, if I compare their tt the picture might differ. One drop of 2 heart oil equals 20 drop of 1 liver oil(10 ped/heart oil vs 1 ped/liver oil). Thus it might be easy to "feel" like I get more oils when you hunt a mob that drops lower tt ones compared to a mob that drops higher tt ones. :scratch2:
 
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Am I the only one who thinks that making all maturities drop same loot makes the maturity system completely redundant (as the defense&heal costs are typically higher)? Doesn't it make sense for higher maturities to have something different (better) in loot, to justify hunting them at all? The answer from Kim that the chance to loot more stackables as the maturity increases, is no justification at all, it is only logical that more peds spent result in more loot...

Of course, I am also frustrated about this because this change makes one of my 2 land areas redundant (one young maturities, the other dominant-alpha). But speaking as a hunter, if I knew that higher lvl mobs have more MU in them, I could benefit from my skills and knowledge. MA, you just removed all of that along with any confidence for stability as a LA owner by this change...

It's more than ok it is like this. Same mob shall loot same things. Maturity is for higher HoF/ATH only if formula is still intact ( stamina *200 +-5% )
 
I also think this is a positive change - at least as far as having different loot on different mobs.

That's how it used to be and I don't know why it was ever changed. As for the percentage of TT crap, I haven't hunted enough recently to give an informed opinion.

I do think we need to give it some time for the system to settle. Remember, EU is essentially a closed system; overall, on average, people have to get less than 100% return (because there is a limited amount of ped in the universe and MA takes a cut).

So, assuming MA is still taking the same cut, the MU is just going to shift from one place to another. If we are getting 95% TT crap, the MU on the other 5% will adjust to compensate. And while this may affect certain hunting strategies and possibly impact the value of some LA's as Girts suggests (although personally I don't think this will happen), this is nothing new. MA have mucked with the loot tables before, and have randomly moved resources around that essentially rendered LAs worthless virtually overnight (which I think is wrong, but point is, has happened before and will happen again).

As always, success in EU is mostly about how quickly you can adjust to changes.

TL;DR:

Less random crap in loot is GOOD. The rest, too early to call.
 
My numbers are out there for quite some time, see my hunting log. ~1.6M ammo spent, 103.59% markup on osseos. Exactly as said in the post title, already low MU mobs will be decreased in MU even more. Is it even close to cover the 90% to 100%?
Also, I found this thing you&others said about getting 101% MU from shrapnels extremely naive. MU is by definition something that other players pay on top of TT. MA will never give out more just because conversion rate of ammo changed, that doesn't make any sense = expect tt return to drop by some difficult to track 0.6% to cover it up.
My forecast, the ~101% we used to get from pancreas muscle etc, is just gone + MU going down in general for most mobs. My assumption is 101% to 102% MU as of this release. To be confirmed in my hunting log as long as I can sustain it (this month is -20.2k with 85.8% tt return so might not last long - this is an all-time low by the way). Forgive me if I am not so optimistic.
P.S.
Guess I have expressed enough of my concerns. There seem to be plenty of people who agree with my point of view, there are a plenty who don't agree, there are some who will never agree with me since I am a LA owner and have a lot to spend so a "Burzhui simply denoted a 'class enemy'"...
Apologies if my numbers seem so way off, it was just an example.

You are more then welcome to provide real numbers so we can have an accurate picture of the situation :)
 
Problem with limited loots in pools means grinders hit resource caps quickly.. especially if we don't have L crafters burning it.
 
...
My forecast, the ~101% we used to get from pancreas muscle etc, is just gone + MU going down in general for most mobs. My assumption is 101% to 102% MU as of this release. To be confirmed in my hunting log as long as I can sustain it (this month is -20.2k with 85.8% tt return so might not last long - this is an all-time low by the way). Forgive me if I am not so optimistic.
...

...and thats all assuming we are getting same loot using universal ammo over regular one. It hasn't been tested yet. MA also never stated it is itherwise.
 
ok, last run I had 600 peds in laser ammo (2k ped run). if you are tuning, this is a really bad direction (with the remark that direction was to worse it has ever been before anyway).
 
2 things that surely i see much needed:
-remove laser n blp ammo completely from loot n get shrapnel instead
-balance the globals, 72 TT wep (out of 150 TT max) and 148 TT shrapnel is no good distribution
 
My forecast, the ~101% we used to get from pancreas muscle etc, is just gone + MU going down in general for most mobs. My assumption is 101% to 102% MU as of this release. To be confirmed in my hunting log as long as I can sustain it (this month is -20.2k with 85.8% tt return so might not last long - this is an all-time low by the way). Forgive me if I am not so optimistic.


Well...

Your hunting log is wrong.

Your forecast is garbage.

Youre just upset because the mobs on your land are apparently not included in this markup, and you're trying to put pressure to fix that.

I'm happily selling stacks of oil between 103 and 106% that I used to TT and various conductors and other parts too that I used to have to hold onto for weeks or even months to get enough to sell properly.

I'm looking forward to more of these mods.

I'm also looking forward to your land area going up for sale, since you'd rather whine on the boards about Osseos not having good loot than actually learn how to work with the new resource distribution.

When are you selling out?
 
Well...

Your hunting log is wrong.

Your forecast is garbage.

Youre just upset because the mobs on your land are apparently not included in this markup, and you're trying to put pressure to fix that.

I'm happily selling stacks of oil between 103 and 106% that I used to TT and various conductors and other parts too that I used to have to hold onto for weeks or even months to get enough to sell properly.

I'm looking forward to more of these mods.

I'm also looking forward to your land area going up for sale, since you'd rather whine on the boards about Osseos not having good loot than actually learn how to work with the new resource distribution.

When are you selling out?

& What is your AVG MU return for all hunting loot?
Did it go up or down?
 
& What is your AVG MU return for all hunting loot?
Did it go up or down?

Went up considering all those 101%'s I'm not TTing anymore.

Only slightly, though. It's not like my wallet is immensely fatter because of this. It's just easier to manage what I want to keep vs sell without resorting to turning my storage into a hoard and consulting an excel spreadsheet every time my PED card gets low to see what I do or do not have enough to sell.
 
Well...

Your hunting log is wrong.

Your forecast is garbage.

Youre just upset because the mobs on your land are apparently not included in this markup, and you're trying to put pressure to fix that.

I'm happily selling stacks of oil between 103 and 106% that I used to TT and various conductors and other parts too that I used to have to hold onto for weeks or even months to get enough to sell properly.

I'm looking forward to more of these mods.

I'm also looking forward to your land area going up for sale, since you'd rather whine on the boards about Osseos not having good loot than actually learn how to work with the new resource distribution.

When are you selling out?

Not sure why you decided to take an aggressive stance. Most have realized that what has been done to Calypso (currently) is either incomplete or just shear laziness on the part of the "balancing" team. While I made 400ped doing eviscerators during WOF last night, out of the 1050ped, 920ped was shrapnel and ammo. Everything else was TT food and not a single tier component. That's just awful. And I did go back out after the event to hit eviscerators again but I had to stop even though I was getting minis because it was the same thing.. ammo and shrapnel on every mob and maybe 5 pec of extractors.
 
Not sure why you decided to take an aggressive stance.

Easy, he is unable to communicate in any other way. In his eyes we are all dumb and he is god almighty, tons of literature on the subject. No offense Magyar, but your hostility is unwarranted.
 
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