Developer Notes #10 - Galactic Transport

Max, I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of materials that get transferred between planets through log off, and vastly underestimating the superiority of caly items.

The way things work now:

Big time miners and crafters can move around 10's of ks worth of stuff cheaply and easily. The result is that miners can safely cycle massive amounts of peds on other mining areas, dump the local materials on auction or to resellers and take the universal materials back to caly for a nice profit. Crafters can easily move around materials for ks and ks of clicks to where ever they want helping to loot planet specific bps and generate a need for local materials.

Through that there is at least a baseline supply of bps and materials. Since hunters and lower level miners operate on a much smaller budget, loading up on a ton of L weapons or tools is not feasible. Therefore they will buy on whatever planet they are on. This helps generate the oh so tiny demand for L stuff we see now.




How things will probably work after the update:

Big miners wont be able to move their loot around safely. They will have to settle for selling at the local planets auction. However since transport fees will be by weight, materials are going to be hit the hardest. Will big miners still hit up ark or rock when they have to eat a X% fee to be competitive with caly? Maybe, maybe not. My bet is that 99% of the mining will come back to caly/foma.

How about crafters then? Going with the theory that most big miners will leave for caly, it will be very difficult to get local ores in any quantity over a few clicks. Res will be almost non-existent since paying X% transport fees will make it pointless to click on any planet other than caly.

How about the small time miners and L hunters? They create an item demand don't they? Not anymore. The transport fee for items will be insignificant compared to the superiority of caly items. Nobody is going to use a local item when they can pick one up off auction that gives far better eco.



Personally I think this will be the death blow to the planet system.
 
How things will probably work after the update:

Big miners wont be able to move their loot around safely. They will have to settle for selling at the local planets auction. However since transport fees will be by weight, materials are going to be hit the hardest. Will big miners still hit up ark or rock when they have to eat a X% fee to be competitive with caly? Maybe, maybe not. My bet is that 99% of the mining will come back to caly/foma.

How about crafters then? Going with the theory that most big miners will leave for caly, it will be very difficult to get local ores in any quantity over a few clicks. Res will be almost non-existent since paying X% transport fees will make it pointless to click on any planet other than caly.

How about the small time miners and L hunters? They create an item demand don't they? Not anymore. The transport fee for items will be insignificant compared to the superiority of caly items. Nobody is going to use a local item when they can pick one up off auction that gives far better eco.

Personally I think this will be the death blow to the planet system.

That awesomely sums up how i feel it will effect the economies....+rep

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: and i still think it is a good thing, finally force planets to get their own damn players with advertising...(although to PP's please don't copy MA, but do tv adertising or SOMETHING other than bloody google ads)
 
How things will probably work after the update:

Big miners wont be able to move their loot around safely. They will have to settle for selling at the local planets auction. However since transport fees will be by weight, materials are going to be hit the hardest. Will big miners still hit up ark or rock when they have to eat a X% fee to be competitive with caly? Maybe, maybe not. My bet is that 99% of the mining will come back to caly/foma.

How about crafters then? Going with the theory that most big miners will leave for caly, it will be very difficult to get local ores in any quantity over a few clicks. Res will be almost non-existent since paying X% transport fees will make it pointless to click on any planet other than caly.

How about the small time miners and L hunters? They create an item demand don't they? Not anymore. The transport fee for items will be insignificant compared to the superiority of caly items. Nobody is going to use a local item when they can pick one up off auction that gives far better eco.

Personally I think this will be the death blow to the planet system.

Your logic has one weak spot. No planet specific ores on AH atm (or no demand on common planet-specific ores with high MU, as I wrote above, because high MU on common planet-specific ores kills crafting) and so there is nothing changes.
If you need a example, see on Telfium MU (specific Arkadia ore, used in several component BP's, weapon BP's and in others). Telfium is not rare, in the places where it can be found, about 1 of 3-4 found claims is Telfium claims. But MU can be from 120 to 145, because there is no miners in these areas. I can buy Telfium if MU will be 120-125, but I always mine it, when it 145%. IMO specific ores will be not affected by transportation.
Do you think they will not fly from Caly? You are wrong! What you choose - to mine lysterium for 106% (in pair with Iron and Belkar) or telfium for 120-145% (yes, for sure, in pair with Cumbriz, Belkar and Yulerium)? And all ores will be sold at the local auction. Telfium - is not the only example. There is enough ores/enmatters with a high MU.

Transport fees should help the PP economics because less players will go to space with a risk to loose all. Therefore Arkadian miners will sell found common universe ores on Arkadia auction, and for to make they offers more attractive, will sell a little cheaper than on Caly (to compensate transport fees). And what happens after that? After that I (or other Arkadia crafter) will buy these offers, can manufacture more cheaper items and prices on domestic planet market will drop down, and ... playerbase will grow! Also above you can read my conclusions about the possibility of buying on other planets without trips, which I consider a very good opportunity for me. This is how I see future.

Especially about that:
My bet is that 99% of the mining will come back to caly/foma
This will happen ... NEVER. Because ... NEVER! :laugh:

I'm not going back to Calypso, even though I have a Shop there. Also, players are not going anywhere from Ark, they still arrive back to Ark to the event with Oratans/Smugglers.

Yes,
Can suffer such a planets as:
Cyrene
Toulan
Maybe ROCK, but it still is not very busy, and HELL gives great advantage to ROCK, so I think no.
 
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I can't really say there was good availability of Arkadian ores on Akradian auction last time I was on Ark (just before Halloween) and really, most of Arkadian limited weapons and amps seem to get listed on Calypso.
 
Max, I think you are vastly underestimating the amount of materials that get transferred between planets through log off, and vastly underestimating the superiority of caly items.

I think that I have a pretty good idea.

Any system in a video game that causes players to log off is fundamentally flawed. The practice of logging off to travel undermines the entire concept of space as it is now. It undermines the Structural Integrity upgrade process of Privateers and a Motherships, it undermines the whole reason pirates exist and the fact that space is lootable PVP, and undermines the value of Motherships and Privateers, especially those with high SI upgrades.

That aside, we don't yet know what the fee structure will look like for transporting ores.
 
I can't really say there was good availability of Arkadian ores on Akradian auction last time I was on Ark (just before Halloween) and really, most of Arkadian limited weapons and amps seem to get listed on Calypso.

I helped in the process, if you are about ARK-21 - ARK-38 rifles. I sell items during the events on Caly or anywhere else where there is a demand. Do not be concerned that there was no ores on AH, I mine ores too.
 
I understand people like to speculate but I think many are being a bit silly in predicting outcomes on the basis that everyone is going to react the same way, thus leading to the death of PPs or boom times or whatever. People play for different reasons and evaluate situations according to their own criteria. And perhaps what MA end up delivering won't be quite what they describe now. I don't believe anyone really knows what's going to happen. We just know that it's going to be challenging.

My business requires a good supply of shared and planet specific (Ark) mined resources as well as lesser amounts of shared and planet specific hunted resources. When the change is implemented, I'm going to look at what is happening to the supply and make what ever changes I need in order to preserve and develop my business.

If I need to go over to caly once a week to do a huge craft run, then that's what I'll do.
If I need to hire a mining company to look for specific resources for me then that's what I'll do.
If I need to work together with other crafters and business owners on my planet to secure a supply then that's what I'll do.
If I need to learn to mine for myself then I'll chip in, hire someone to teach me the locations and then go mining.
If I need to change the way I do my crafting then I'll do that.

Because I want to run a business in EU. Because I like a challenge. Because I believe in myself and my capacity to find a way to succeed.

My advice is to stop worrying so much about the PPs. They can take care of themselves. Most of the PPs signed up with MA while there was still a universal auction and TPs to anywhere in the universe. Their original business plans will have been based on something very similar to the changes we are about to see.

Stop worrying about what might happen in the overall economy or how everyone else going to react. You don't really know. It's too complex a situation to make predictions with any real degree of confidence. Instead think about how your own game play might need to change. Sure, run a few possible scenarios so you have some ideas thought out but don't commit until you actually know what is happening.

Look for opportunities. Look for the fun. Be prepared to take risks. Because EU is a lot like life only cheaper.
 
Developer Notes #10 - Galactic Transport



Those missions will take the form of cargo boxes which must be delivered to a destination in return for a PED reward funded by the transport fee pool. Cargo boxes are at risk of being looted by other participants in cases where the transporting ship is defeated in space combat; the looted cargo boxes can then be delivered to the assigned destination by the looter to claim the original transport mission reward. Note that the cargo boxes will correspond to the value of the transport mission reward rather than the actual items traded via auction sales. In this way piracy of cargo boxes will not negatively impact interplanetary trade.


This part concerns me:

* Does the BUYER lose his items if MS is unable to deliver - does not wish to deliver - logs off and quits after taking missions?

* Does the BUYER lose his items if MS is looted - and pirate TT's the cargo - and/or has no intension of delivering it ever? ie logs off and quits the game?

In EVE (where this Cargo concept is borrowed from), the Buyer NEVER loses their original shipment - but the Ship captain is penalized (via their INSURANCE DEPOSIT) should the delivery fail.

If delivery fails (for any reason) the SAME cargo is then RE-QUEUED into the delivery mission pool for new allocation to next-in-line pilot from that spaceport.


Please look into this and make it a more robust system.

The BUYER should NEVER be penalized for paying for a product, paying shipping fees, and then losing it to a bunch of monkeys in space. ;)
 

This part concerns me:

* Does the BUYER lose his items if MS is unable to deliver - does not wish to deliver - logs off and quits after taking missions?

* Does the BUYER lose his items if MS is looted - and pirate TT's the cargo - and/or has no intension of delivering it ever? ie logs off and quits the game?

In EVE (where this Cargo concept is borrowed from), the Buyer NEVER loses their original shipment - but the Ship captain is penalized (via their INSURANCE DEPOSIT) should the delivery fail.

If delivery fails (for any reason) the SAME cargo is then RE-QUEUED into the delivery mission pool for new allocation to next-in-line pilot from that spaceport.


Please look into this and make it a more robust system.

The BUYER should NEVER be penalized for paying for a product, paying shipping fees, and then losing it to a bunch of monkeys in space. ;)

for the 1000th time:
Cargo boxes are not related to the item bought.
 
for the 1000th time:
Cargo boxes are not related to the item bought.


I really wish MA had named these damned things differently. Would have saved a LOT of people miss reading it, or not bothering to read at all

Rgds

Ace
 
I agree, good name for box that you transprt cargo is brunkelshpillendrum


But it isnt a box that transports cargo :wise:, that is the whole point. It doesnt contain anything, you can't put anything in it, you might as well call them "bone samples", or "Ace's big black hole of tiny particles". But no they had to call them cargo boxes, and anyone who doesnt read correctly automatically thinks they can carry stuff.

Rgds

Ace

PS i apologise in advance if i missunderstood your point :)
 
I really wish MA had named these damned things differently. Would have saved a LOT of people miss reading it, or not bothering to read at all

Rgds

Ace

I agree, good name for box that you transprt cargo is brunkelshpillendrum

Wouldn't help. You'd still get posts like:

"Great job MA! Feeding the pirates! With all this brunkelshpillendrum in the sky it will be so heavy it falls! "

What people need to do, however, is actually reading the OP before predicting the apocalypse.
 
I understand people like to speculate but I think many are being a bit silly in predicting outcomes on the basis that everyone is going to react the same way, thus leading to the death of PPs or boom times or whatever. People play for different reasons and evaluate situations according to their own criteria. And perhaps what MA end up delivering won't be quite what they describe now. I don't believe anyone really knows what's going to happen. We just know that it's going to be challenging.

My business requires a good supply of shared and planet specific (Ark) mined resources as well as lesser amounts of shared and planet specific hunted resources. When the change is implemented, I'm going to look at what is happening to the supply and make what ever changes I need in order to preserve and develop my business.

If I need to go over to caly once a week to do a huge craft run, then that's what I'll do.
If I need to hire a mining company to look for specific resources for me then that's what I'll do.
If I need to work together with other crafters and business owners on my planet to secure a supply then that's what I'll do.
If I need to learn to mine for myself then I'll chip in, hire someone to teach me the locations and then go mining.
If I need to change the way I do my crafting then I'll do that.

Because I want to run a business in EU. Because I like a challenge. Because I believe in myself and my capacity to find a way to succeed.

My advice is to stop worrying so much about the PPs. They can take care of themselves. Most of the PPs signed up with MA while there was still a universal auction and TPs to anywhere in the universe. Their original business plans will have been based on something very similar to the changes we are about to see.

Stop worrying about what might happen in the overall economy or how everyone else going to react. You don't really know. It's too complex a situation to make predictions with any real degree of confidence. Instead think about how your own game play might need to change. Sure, run a few possible scenarios so you have some ideas thought out but don't commit until you actually know what is happening.

Look for opportunities. Look for the fun. Be prepared to take risks. Because EU is a lot like life only cheaper.
Looks like you one of few making money from Entropia without much of Reselling... From my view if person can invest for Crafting then buying shop and having few select hunters buying there guns preferred and going far long.
 
Stop worrying about what might happen in the overall economy or how everyone else going to react. You don't really know. It's too complex a situation to make predictions with any real degree of confidence. Instead think about how your own game play might need to change. Sure, run a few possible scenarios so you have some ideas thought out but don't commit until you actually know what is happening.

I'm still going to worry a bit, but in addition to what KikkiJikki said, MA can adjust their fees and other dynamics to bring about the desired amount of separation. If ores are getting hit too hard, they simply (ok maybe not simple) adjust the fees based on weights, and normalize the weights of resources, or tack on additional fees for items. Having fees based on weight is not logical at all because weights have been pretty much arbitrarily set by the devs for other purposes (now if space travel gets changed to be inertial and the more mass your ship has the more fuel you burn getting up to speed and slowing down, I could see it, but though cool, that would be unlikely... though would be great for evading pirates). If the transport fees for resources is too high you're going to see significant cutoff of markets, with the situation svena described above. If it's too low, you're going to see a different kind of bad competition. It's impossible to know exactly what will happen... especially when so much is dependent on the beliefs and actions of the players. But the point is that MA can modify this balance at any time. If they feel the smaller PPs are getting the shaft they can adjust it.
 
(now if space travel gets changed to be inertial and the more mass your ship has the more fuel you burn getting up to speed and slowing down, I could see it, but though cool, that would be unlikely... though would be great for evading pirates). If the transport fees for resources is too high you're going to see significant cutoff of markets, with the situation svena described above. If it's too low, you're going to see a different kind of bad competition... ... But the point is that MA can modify this balance at any time. If they feel the smaller PPs are getting the shaft they can adjust it.

I was wondering about the weight point too. Is there a longer term plan behind it by MA (inertia affecting ship acceleration in the future, which would compete against the auction surcharge)? I would LOVE to see ships with different power/acceleration rates combined with cargo weight calculations. Long range radar would add to the tactics as well - it is just a mild hope at the moment that the decision to base the transport charge on weight is part of longer-term thinking - and not just that armour/weaps etc will be cheap to grab off another planet's auction, while mats will cost variably more.
 
I know many will hate this suggestion, but i actually would like all items in personal shops also to be listed in auction. Not to be bought in auction, but to get a waypoint where the shop is, so i can travel there and buy it :)
(Also an old Starwars galaxies practic, and EQ2 where players sold items in their homes - but could be found on the general market browser, worked quite well)

Agree! Why not?

All RL businesses today have a website to see products and stock, and purchase, why not the same ability in some way?
 
Agree! Why not?

All RL businesses today have a website to see products and stock, and purchase, why not the same ability in some way?

Nothing is stopping you from setting up a website :scratch2:
 
great idea, each shop makes its own website.........

Or MA hosts the sites for owners. More content on the web more google index for people to find the game.
 
Agree! Why not?

All RL businesses today have a website to see products and stock, and purchase, why not the same ability in some way?

Well, for EU I believe that there should be a Shop Directory that lists all the items with prices for all shops in the whole planet. Shop owners should have the ability to opt out of that directory of course. There would also need to be some kind of minimal fee structure, paid by the shop owner. Probably what would make the most sense is an "opt-in" system where the shop owner pays a little bit to have their items listed in the directory.

With a directory of items in all shops on the planet, the most logical place to put that directory is in another tab at the auctioneer. It could show all the item info and give buyers an option to get a waypoint to that shop so they can go there and buy the item.
 
It should be doable for MA to set up such a directory, as they have the info stored in their DB anyway.

The return of the Golden Pages :)
Search on category, item name, or advanced for "BLP guns with minimum level of 20 BLP sniper, costing less than 200 PED".
 
Im quite sure this is something that they have thought of.
but maybe to implement in their upcomming premium memberships ;)
 
I really dont know for what you talkin about people or bertha but i need 5 most post for 600 so :wtg:
 
It should be doable for MA to set up such a directory, as they have the info stored in their DB anyway.

I am starting to wonder if they really have a database (on anything for that matter)................
 
great idea, each shop makes its own website.........

Yes, why not?

Do you go to shopping.gov when you are shopping? Why should MA do the work for lazy shopowners?

Once shops have websites it's just a matter of time before someone creates a universal template which can be used to submit information to a unified directory.
 
Yes, why not?

Do you go to shopping.gov when you are shopping? Why should MA do the work for lazy shopowners?

Once shops have websites it's just a matter of time before someone creates a universal template which can be used to submit information to a unified directory.

Find the notion as absurd as having different forums for different planets. Reason, a lot of players don´t visit forums and will probably not visit shopping websites either. Hell people even fail to read client loader before login, sad Mindark does not use the white warning popup any longer for issues (was only used a couple times).

Just my :twocents:
 
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Well, for EU I believe that there should be a Shop Directory that lists all the items with prices for all shops in the whole planet. Shop owners should have the ability to opt out of that directory of course. There would also need to be some kind of minimal fee structure, paid by the shop owner. Probably what would make the most sense is an "opt-in" system where the shop owner pays a little bit to have their items listed in the directory.

With a directory of items in all shops on the planet, the most logical place to put that directory is in another tab at the auctioneer. It could show all the item info and give buyers an option to get a waypoint to that shop so they can go there and buy the item.

:tiphat: ..............
 
I just realised, the no log out will not be happening in the first update in early decemeber.

From the OP:

"It will still be possible to transport goods and resources through space in the current manner, though changes will be made in upcoming Version Updates to address currently existing issues and loopholes that allow for risk-free transport of goods and materials through space."

In upcoming version updates.....so don't expect log off to be removed for at least another year lol

Rgds

Ace
 
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