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Speed exploit or Positional geometry?

billairboy said:
Yes that is correct, but you said that I was wrong I'm not. But It's more effective doing what you call "intercept", but I trying to point out is that I don't believe that is what you are doing because it would be near impossible managing that in the space in 3D with a target that can change cource. So I would say that in most cases you are just moving in the general direction of the target and that would put you closer to the target if the target is not moving stright from you. But as soon as the target is stright ahead and moving stright ahead you will not case up any more. Same principle as your "interception".
Click to expand...

I was wrong when I said you would not make any gains using this method.

You are right to a certain point, you would realize more gains in the beginning of the intercept but would taper off quickly. Your intercept flight path would curve into the targets flight path. This I believe would produce inefficient results when compared to a straight intercept flight path as illustrated earlier.

When you need every inch you can get just to bring your guns in range of your target I believe flying straight at your target will fall short most of the time.
 
billairboy said:
in the space in 3D
Click to expand...
Correction: 2D

There's even a special button provided by MA to level your ship horizontally. So actually all the ppl who have elementary knowledge about Space are operating on a flat 2D plane (when trying to outrun other quad). Who don't know this are screwed anyway.


If ppl who don't know even the basic truths would refrain from muddying the waters in Space related threads we might eventually even learn something useful... Althou to know that you actually don't know you have to realize this first, so it's prolly pretty useless to even ask... :laugh:
 
Fifth said:
Correction: 2D

There's even a special button provided by MA to level your ship horizontally. So actually all the ppl who have elementary knowledge about Space are operating on a flat 2D plane (when trying to outrun other quad). Who don't know this are screwed anyway.


If ppl who don't know even the basic truths would refrain from muddying the waters in Space related threads we might eventually even learn something useful... Althou to know that you actually don't know you have to realize this first, so it's prolly pretty useless to even ask... :laugh:
Click to expand...

I might be wrong but I think space is actually 3D because you have three co-ordinates X, Y, Z or horizontal, vertical and height. Space is actually contained in a 3D Volume.

The usage of it is of course cumbersome and may appear 2D because the map is 2D and you have things like align horizontal.

You can verify it is indeed 3D by doing your own testing on space and moving across the 3 planar coordinates. Perhaps easiest way to see the 3D volume box is to go to one corner of the map and explore the top, bottom as well as horizontal and vertical limits because in our space we are not allowed to go past the 3D space volume
 
Fifth said:
Correction: 2D

There's even a special button provided by MA to level your ship horizontally. So actually all the ppl who have elementary knowledge about Space are operating on a flat 2D plane (when trying to outrun other quad). Who don't know this are screwed anyway.


If ppl who don't know even the basic truths would refrain from muddying the waters in Space related threads we might eventually even learn something useful... Althou to know that you actually don't know you have to realize this first, so it's prolly pretty useless to even ask... :laugh:
Click to expand...

Presently, space, as implemented by MA, is three-dimentional.
 
Fifth said:
Correction: 2D

There's even a special button provided by MA to level your ship horizontally. So actually all the ppl who have elementary knowledge about Space are operating on a flat 2D plane (when trying to outrun other quad). Who don't know this are screwed anyway.
Click to expand...

As other has pointed out, it's "3D" because you have also a "height/depth" dimension, at least the last time I was flying in space, it can be postive or negative. If I'm not remember totally wrong? :scratch2:
 
Fifth said:
Correction: 2D

There's even a special button provided by MA to level your ship horizontally.
Click to expand...

I would say, the fact that there is an "align horizonally" button tells that space *is* 3D and not 2D. If space was 2D, such a button wouldn't make any sense as you would Always fly at same level/same Z plane direction.

The fact that people who fly through space, and pirates who persue the people who fly through space, use that button and thus only use one plane and practically navigate in a 2D space doesn't change this.
I Think there are one or two hunting grounds in space that are quite a bit "off" in the Z-plane (like -900m); this shows that there is more in space than just the z=0 plane. It's just that most people doesn't go there if you want to travel the shortest route between two planets.
 
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billairboy said:
As other has pointed out, it's "3D" because you have also a "height/depth" dimension, at least the last time I was flying in space, it can be postive or negative. If I'm not remember totally wrong? :scratch2:
Click to expand...

No you are right, the depth is important*. Space is essentially a large cuboid.

*said the actress to the bishop...
 
its maybe 3 d but if both planes are going in the same direction in strait line 2d will show the same calcultions

draw it on a paper that your 2d then tilt the paper in any direction that will give you 3d aspect but if they go in strait line its still the about the same lenght
 
Fifth said:
all the ppl who have elementary knowledge about Space are operating on a flat 2D plane (when trying to outrun other quad). Who don't know this are screwed anyway.


If ppl who don't know even the basic truths would refrain from muddying the waters in Space related threads we might eventually even learn something useful... Althou to know that you actually don't know you have to realize this first, so it's prolly pretty useless to even ask...
Click to expand...
Reading comprehension much?

Did you really think you were the 1st to notice Space is 3D? Planetside is also built as 3D space, every time you go up the hill you're using it too.

Concentrate on the essential message, you're all screwed if you don't know what the Align Horizontally function is for in Space. Enjoy.
 
Fifth said:
Reading comprehension much?

Did you really think you were the 1st to notice Space is 3D? Planetside is also built as 3D space, every time you go up the hill you're using it too.

Concentrate on the essential message, you're all screwed if you don't know what the Align Horizontally function is for in Space. Enjoy.
Click to expand...

When you quote yourself it looked for a moment like you were arguing with yourself... :laugh:
 
Fifth said:
Reading comprehension much?

Did you really think you were the 1st to notice Space is 3D? Planetside is also built as 3D space, every time you go up the hill you're using it too.

Concentrate on the essential message, you're all screwed if you don't know what the Align Horizontally function is for in Space. Enjoy.
Click to expand...

Again, this concept is within the MA implementation of space where all worlds find themselves in the same, exact horizontal frame.

I personally know what the function is.. I have the button on my desktop but have found that I don't use it too often. The function isn't truly essential to learn how to fly in space as being horizontal all the time isn't really necessary.

live a little.. Spin your quad while flying thru space and see how off you are when you get to your destination. :smoke:
 
Fifth said:
Reading comprehension much?

Did you really think you were the 1st to notice Space is 3D? Planetside is also built as 3D space, every time you go up the hill you're using it too.

Concentrate on the essential message, you're all screwed if you don't know what the Align Horizontally function is for in Space. Enjoy.
Click to expand...

You sound a bit confused? :silly2::scratch2: First you say 2D than you say 3D?

Align horizontally just align your ship, it does not move it. If I move my ship from "height" (Z) 0 to -200, I move in the "Z"-plane, so for a "pirate" to go in a straight intercept line he also need to move in in the Z-plane. Otherwise the pirate could be on the same xy point in the map, but 200 units from me.
 
ahhh yes - facinating - one second please

Nuj0CZu.gif


aaaand were back - as you were saying *squints​
 

2D, 3D.... Why stop at three dimensions?

If you feel like you are getting a headache - pause it. :eyecrazy:
 
Sionkiewicz said:
Again, this concept is within the MA implementation of space where all worlds find themselves in the same, exact horizontal frame.
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Wrong. Planets are located at different heights. If you would have said the the difference is not big and they are all very close (plus minus few hundred au) to the z=0 coordinate, then we could all agree. Lose the word "exact" and we're good. :)

Sionkiewicz said:
I personally know what the function is.. I have the button on my desktop but have found that I don't use it too often. The function isn't truly essential to learn how to fly in space as being horizontal all the time isn't really necessary.
Click to expand...
Remember the topic? We're not talking exploring the Space in general here, we discuss a very specific situation. You leave SS and you find out you're being followed by a hostile quad.

Now, are you still certain this function isn't necessary? ;)

OK, let me put it this way. What could be the reason this function is ingame? You are casually flying around, exploring the Space - what's the use for this function then? I can answer that, no use at all. If you get confused where you're going you can always set your course to the object you are trying to reach by aiming your ship to it, right? So we got a perfectly useless function there, it seems! Doesn't this make you curious? I mean, some ppl might ask in this situation - wait, am I missing something here?

Pirates won't teach you, not in their best interest obviously. So looks like it's up to you to figure this one out. Where's the will there's a way. Gl :)
 
Fifth said:
If you get confused where you're going you can always set your course to the object you are trying to reach by aiming your ship to it, right?
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If you are flying straight from NI to Calypso, then sure, you can aim straight for planet.

But if you are flying from Monria to Calypso or Howling Mines to Rocktropia, you need to know pretty much exact where you are, because otherwise you will bump into the "invisible wall" of space and go to a halt, and unless you are glued to system chat window you won't notice it (you'll just wonder after 5 minutes why you aren't going anywhere). And the easiest way to know where you are in such a way you can relate it to the space map, is to align yourself with the map.

Another example: Let's say you are going to fly from Calypso Space Station to Rocktropia. Now, you want to leave CSS as quickly as possible, Before too many pirates spot you, so you take off at a random direction just away from the station. Now when you are away and you have no pirates at your tail you will start to do the real flight, and then the above applies: You set a location mark on space map, and you want to go there. And to make sure you don't to any silly mistake (such as flying upside down, causing you to fly in opposite direction) you align the ship and set the "real" course, with the exception that you probably want to do a detour around CSS in case your exit path was in the wrong direction.

If you did get a pirate on your tail when leaving CSS however, then aligning yourself with map is probably the least your are thinking about. The less obvious reason is when you do the align action the ship will start to spin around and Point in a non obvious direction and you don't want that to happen if you are persued by someone.
 
aia said:
If you did get a pirate on your tail when leaving CSS however, then aligning yourself with map is probably the least your are thinking about. The less obvious reason is when you do the align action the ship will start to spin around and Point in a non obvious direction and you don't want that to happen if you are persued by someone.
Click to expand...
Which proves once again you have no idea what you're talking about...

OK, seems the pirates and MS owners are not exactly going out of their way to try to explain the details to you. Althou Xane told quite a lot actually in this thread.
Well, no wonder, for both pirates and MS owners it's actually useful if ppl get caught by pirates... In that sense they kinda on the same team. And they have every right to do that - in this Universe stupidity is a sin and has to be punished. After all, everybody had every opportunity to figure it out on their own, if they didn't, who's to blame?

intercept.jpg


Green flight path - target, red - interceptor.

As you can see, the Green quad is moving mainly along the x-axis but as it's not perfectly aligned it's constantly "bleeding" some speed towards the y-axis as well. And that's not all, because our victim is stupid enough he's also bleeding additional speed on z-axis as well. Red quad uses all it's speed for x-axis exclusively and consequently has higher speed (on x-axis).
Goes without saying, to make the above scenario possible 1) the Red quad has to be carefully positioned before the race starts, and 2) the Green quad should not correct it's course during the flight.
Also, Red quad doesn't have to actually catch the target, it has a "death sphere" attached to it. Once you caught in that sphere it's easy to make sure you never slip out of it, no matter what you do.

So there you have it. It's easier to say than do thou, but maybe this will help somebody. Sry, won't answer any follow up questions, just... take it or leave it.
 
Fifth said:
Wrong. Planets are located at different heights. If you would have said the the difference is not big and they are all very close (plus minus few hundred au) to the z=0 coordinate, then we could all agree. Lose the word "exact" and we're good. :)
Click to expand...

Also remember, we are talking in three dimensions.. My statement is that they are all on the "exact horizontal frame". I never stated they were in the same exact Vertical Frame.

Let me explain it a bit more in detail for you. If I were to set myself to same Horizontal plane as Ark and then fly to NI without changing my Horizontal attitude, I would still be on the same Horizontal plane as NI but may come in with a Low or Hi Vertically (which I could thrust up or down to fix without changing my Horizontal frame).

I think I can keep the word "Exact" and my statement is still quite accurate. :wise:
 
Fifth said:
Which proves once again you have no idea what you're talking about...

OK, seems the pirates and MS owners are not exactly going out of their way to try to explain the details to you. Althou Xane told quite a lot actually in this thread.
Well, no wonder, for both pirates and MS owners it's actually useful if ppl get caught by pirates... In that sense they kinda on the same team. And they have every right to do that - in this Universe stupidity is a sin and has to be punished. After all, everybody had every opportunity to figure it out on their own, if they didn't, who's to blame?

intercept.jpg


Green flight path - target, red - interceptor.

As you can see, the Green quad is moving mainly along the x-axis but as it's not perfectly aligned it's constantly "bleeding" some speed towards the y-axis as well. And that's not all, because our victim is stupid enough he's also bleeding additional speed on z-axis as well. Red quad uses all it's speed for x-axis exclusively and consequently has higher speed (on x-axis).
Goes without saying, to make the above scenario possible 1) the Red quad has to be carefully positioned before the race starts, and 2) the Green quad should not correct it's course during the flight.
Also, Red quad doesn't have to actually catch the target, it has a "death sphere" attached to it. Once you caught in that sphere it's easy to make sure you never slip out of it, no matter what you do.

So there you have it. It's easier to say than do thou, but maybe this will help somebody. Sry, won't answer any follow up questions, just... take it or leave it.
Click to expand...

This has been talked about. Just not in depth. The pirates adjustment to course can be in any one or even a combination of the dimensions to gain a shooting advantage. It's just with the media used here it is difficult to show a diagram that accurately describes it.

If the Green Quad were able to match the adjustments made by the Red Quad, then the positional gains the Red Quad was getting would cease. It's just that trying to do that by eye balling an object in space coming at you with no referential details to be seen is almost impossible. While the Red Quad (pirate) has made a team with his buddies which enables him/her to target you and get positional information on you. :smoke:
 
aia said:
It's just that most people doesn't go there if you want to travel the shortest route between two planets.
Click to expand...

This are those prefered by pirates, easy to intercept :D

Shortest route is bad route
 
Fifth said:
As you can see, the Green quad is moving mainly along the x-axis but as it's not perfectly aligned it's constantly "bleeding" some speed towards the y-axis as well. And that's not all, because our victim is stupid enough he's also bleeding additional speed on z-axis as well. Red quad uses all it's speed for x-axis exclusively and consequently has higher speed (on x-axis).
Click to expand...

I don't understand how you are thinking, you sound a bit clueless to me. Moving, or in this case what you call "bleeding" in the "Z" axis is also as much moving as moving in y/x-axis. If the pirate wants to make an interception he also needs to intercept the target line a the right Z-point. If the the pirate intercepts the line at the right X/Y point, but is 2000 points wrong in the Z axis he have missed the target......

Align just turn your ship so the roof is "up" and the ship is perfect aligned so you will not move in the Z-plan if you move straight ahead.
 
Fifth said:
Which proves once again you have no idea what you're talking about...
Click to expand...

I Think that you have read something in my post that I have not written. The wording ´less obvious reason´ I used for a reason .) And, words that might mean different "things" depending on whos point of view and on what scale you are thinking.

Read the middle part of my text once more, and add Arrows to your diagram accordingly.
 
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Sionkiewicz said:
Again, this concept is within the MA implementation of space where all worlds find themselves in the same, exact horizontal frame.

I personally know what the function is.. I have the button on my desktop but have found that I don't use it too often. The function isn't truly essential to learn how to fly in space as being horizontal all the time isn't really necessary.

live a little.. Spin your quad while flying thru space and see how off you are when you get to your destination. :smoke:
Click to expand...
We're going off topic here but allright, let's go over this as we on it.

What we call "Planets" in Space are in fact vertical planes that extend from absolute max z coordinate (= the "roof" of the "Space cube") down to the max negative coord (= "the floor") and have width of one server cube.

Therefore it doesn't matter on which height you are entering the planet. The fact that you can successfully enter at any height doesn't prove the destination planet is at the exact same height as the starting planet. For any practical reasons the exact z-coordinates for planets are irrelevant anyway, it only matters for Space Stations.
You can only see the z-coord for a planet on it's waypoint on the Space map.

I will leave it for everyone to find out if planets are at the exact same heights or not... :cool:

On topic, as some people seem to be still confused (and some will always be) - it's probably worth mentioning that the reason why leveling your ship horizontally is a good idea when you are racing the other quad is NOT because it's impossible to set exact course away from the quad that follows you. Nothing is impossible. If you are such an expert and can calculate (or somehow visually "see", or whatever method you're using there) the correct route in all 3 dimensions without breaking a sweat, good for you. Go for it and forget anything I said.


My post was not meant for professional smugglers, it's to help the Average Joe understand the basics and increase his chances for survival when chased by a pirate. Fur us ordinary ppl it's hard enough to set the right course on 2 dimensions. No need to make it even harder by trying to get it right using all 3.
 
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who cares...when are so dumb not using a MS when u got loot
 
Fifth said:
We're going off topic here but allright, let's go over this as we on it.

What we call "Planets" in Space are in fact vertical planes that extend from absolute max z coordinate (= the "roof" of the "Space cube") down to the max negative coord (= "the floor") and have width of one server cube.

Therefore it doesn't matter on which height you are entering the planet. The fact that you can successfully enter at any height doesn't prove the destination planet is at the exact same height as the starting planet. For any practical reasons the exact z-coordinates for planets are irrelevant anyway, it only matters for Space Stations.
You can only see the z-coord for a planet on it's waypoint on the Space map.

I will leave it for everyone to find out if planets are at the exact same heights or not... :cool:

On topic, as some people seem to be still confused (and some will always be) - it's probably worth mentioning that the reason why leveling your ship horizontally is a good idea when you are racing the other quad is NOT because it's impossible to set exact course away from the quad that follows you. Nothing is impossible. If you are such an expert and can calculate (or somehow visually "see", or whatever method you're using there) the correct route in all 3 dimensions without breaking a sweat, good for you. Go for it and forget anything I said.


My post was not meant for professional smugglers, it's to help the Average Joe understand the basics and increase his chances for survival when chased by a pirate. Fur us ordinary ppl it's hard enough to set the right course on 2 dimensions. No need to make it even harder by trying to get it right using all 3.
Click to expand...

Thank you for making my point.. :smoke:
 
Fifth said:

My post was not meant for professional smugglers, it's to help the Average Joe understand the basics and increase his chances for survival when chased by a pirate. Fur us ordinary ppl it's hard enough to set the right course on 2 dimensions. No need to make it even harder by trying to get it right using all 3.
Click to expand...


Well, it does not sound helpful if you are makeing statements that is not correct?

But as you say if it's hard enough to set the right cource on 2D and how would a pirate be able to correctly guess a 3D intercepting cource? That is my point.
 
Sionkiewicz said:
Thank you for making my point..
Click to expand...
Heh, you lazy bastard! You didn't even go into space...

Had you tried to get a waypoint to a planet from the Space map you would have found out it's impossible. Planet itself isn't an object. If there's no object then there's no fixed coordinates either. There's those fancy images of planets but no interactive objects associated to them. Only way to get a height reading for a planet is to point at the SS orbiting that planet. Now, what are the z coords for the Space Stations? :smoke:
 
Tbh who isn't speed cheating now days :p hell I've used it just ask chances where you at boyo
 
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So there is an exploit then?
If so, doesn't that make so much of what has been said, all the diagrams & explanations, mostly BS
 
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