The Market Value is not a Game

[Xavier_Jr]

As all will understand the values of market of the objects that are traded in Entropia Universe is what guarantees that this virtual universe can work without collapsing. From there the preoccupation that causes me seeing that the values of market of all the resources and objects of this virtual universe go in free fall.
Is necessary to make note that although it is certain the quantity of players that practice the game is a decisive factor for the values of market of Entropia Universe things; I find that it is not the only one. That nowadays exist a problem of reading from the historical values of the market from the tools that the game offers us.
In some moment the players of the game have forgotten that the market values not only are established mechanically for the record of the auction; if not that fundamentally they should be established by oneself giving a value to the things that we sell considering our costs implicated in his obtaining or fabrication.
An example of this is the race to sell things which does the players take from reference the historical value and always put its price below this; without considering that the value of historical market reflects the average of all the available markets. There are markets that purchase and sell wholesale objects. And there are also markets that buy and sell retail objects. Both economies are not the same ones, if not that each one has and should have their own rules.
I believe that one of the reasons for the fall down of the prices is because most of the people doesn't make a distinction of both markets. Such that they mechanically sell their things below the market values allways. That doesn't help to the economy of the universe. Because it drives to the continuous fall of the prices fruit of the offer and demand, although the real demand is not falling in the same proportion. This way we can see that the MU of the mining amplifiers now is usually always bigger than the MU of the maters and ores of the game. Also the because the MU of the weapons and armors are usually always bigger than the MU of the hunt loots..
This situation is very dangerous. Because if something menace to the game is it. For this reason, I have two suggestions. One to Mindark that plans to future to make a distinction between the records values of market of the objects and resources bought wholesale and also for retail; and a second that the sellers in general don't determine mechanically the price of the object only for the historical; if not that they make calculation of costs. Example, if an ampli costs 112% and we also know that Mindark will charge to the long one 10% of what we play as commission; we should not offer minerals for example in 108%. Because that means that we will make collapse the economy more early than late. In front of this measurement, if one wants to sell something for less than 110% it is very preferable to throw the object to the TT, because to the long way is more beneficial for the economy in general of the game.
The market values process is not a game; for that reason we should understand their concept well and to take care we must to establish it in its real value, according to their costs, and not only that we place the prices looking at the historical one (MU-1), because the same one represents the average of the costs of great scale with the costs of small scale.

 

[giuly_adm]

I like when someone talks about the economy of the game since it's a thing that regards all of us.

My little 2 pecs are about the impossibility to manage the value of a certain item/resource by the players, that prefeer always their own interests to the community ones.

About Amps it's probably cause of them and to the effect that they had on the amount of ores and enmatters found/day, and the increase of new miners definitely highest than the increase of the crafters.
Ores/Enmatters have a value only for the use that crafters do of them, but if there are too many resources (too many miners) and not so many users that need em the price will definitely fall.
We hav to tell that the hunting loot became craftable too, so atm there are too many ingredients and too low need of item crafted from them.

So?

Of course there's a need of need of resources


I think only MA can solve this and it's probably already under construction...

 

[Few Scars]

Things will improve

The other issue is that people have bought items before the world economic crash and are selling to try and get some cash back before prices fall further. No one is buying at the moment, bar but a few. The prices of armour, UL weapons and other uber items can only recover when people gain confidence in the Calypso economy again. Why buy a piece of Shadow now when the price keeps falling. Wormhole chips selling now 2Kped less than they were 6 months ago, its absolute madness. Like shares, the winners will be the ones who pick the moment when prices recover and they get their items dirt cheap and the prices rocket back up!

I agree the ingame economy is struggling and people are losing money. But the only way is up and once the confidence is back and demand again grows we wont see prices like this until the next recession...assuming the US economy doesnt collapse under the Trillion dollar debt the have....

Cheers
Bjorn

 

[Aura Lily]

just a thought ...

One tiny bit of information that could be provided in the ingame Market Analysis thinger is the actual number of the item being viewed ingame. This could add relevance to this feature. Currently what we see is how many have been sold in auction. A bolder step would be to include prices paid in shops, shop keepers and private trades. The information does exist or rather should exist. Just a matter of MA stepping up and providing some basic usable metrics ingame.

 

[Carlito]

The market values process is not a game; for that reason we should understand their concept well and to take care we must to establish it in its real value, according to their costs, and not only that we place the prices looking at the historical one (MU-1), because the same one represents the average of the costs of great scale with the costs of small scale.[/QUOTE]

I agree, been a problem for long time. The reason behind this is that most are gamblers here and really don't care about the universe, only HOFS and ATH interest em.

 

[Norbert]

....................................................

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Thanks to everybody for your replies, i think each one of you, said something important. It could be added too, that it is necesary that societies explain to newbies about the importance of Market Value for the economy of our universe.
I am sure that Mindark know about the problem and we are his partners to correct this essencial problem from the economy. Only on this way we can guarantee the continuity of this game that we learned to love.

 

[Hijacker27]

You have to look at it from both sides of the issue. Low market values can be good for the consumer, as it makes using them cheaper.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

You have to look at it from both sides of the issue. Low market values can be good for the consumer, as it makes using them cheaper.

What happens is that they should be balanced. However both, miners and hunters, spend tools (weapons, finders, amplifiers, armor, FAPS, etc). Each of the tools have decay and MU. They must also pay a commission of 10% to Mindark. The crafter does not use tools. They will only pay their MU materials plus 10% commission of Mindark. If the materials have not MUs, the balance is unbalanced.

 

[billairboy]

A seller are free the sell for the price/mu he wants, nothing wrong with that. It's all about supply and demand in the long run. High mu on everything should not be a goal for us, because it makes things unnecessary expansive.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

A seller are free the sell for the price/mu he wants, nothing wrong with that. It's all about supply and demand in the long run. High mu on everything should not be a goal for us, because it makes things unnecessary expansive.

yes but "free" it not must be synonimous of "ignorance"; the objetive of this thread is to show and to do visible, some hiden points.

 

[mastermesh]

The market values process is not a game;

The market may not be a game to you. However, for those with enough cash to blow, all markets are a game, both in game and in real life. That's why in some countries, buying a computer with high speed internet is seen as a necessity, while in others, working 60 hours a week to just have enough money to put rice on the table for a family that is literally starving to death is more of necessity. The value of the dollar varies between individuals because of their view of things at that particular moment in time. For a child on an allowance, a dollar is worth a heck of a lot more then an adult... For someone in a third world country, it's worth more then for someone in a wealthy country that has more money then they know what to do with.

yes but "free" it not must be synonimous of "ignorance"

Freedom is many things to many people. The definition of ignorance varies from person to person. Just because you want people to do things your way and see things your way does not mean you can ever force them to see it your way, even if you had all the time in the world to discuss the matter with them and give them your side of the story as to why you want them to believe what you believe.

I do agree, there is a difference between many parts of the real cash economy in game, and MA should change things a bit from the way they are now. Upgraded estates should not have the same history as estates in their initial phase. Mall shops should not be in the same market history as apartments. Apartments should not be in the same market history as booths. Tier 10 items should not be in the same market history as tier 0 items. Unfortunately, MA does things their way, and there's not much we can do about that other then give our input and hope they listen.

As far as market falling, a lot of it does have to do with the real world economic situation. That's why things are going down in prices. Thats why winter has more population then summer as people irl are spending summers away from their computers, etc. I do agree with you somewhat... However, as any psychologist will tell you, I don't think you trying to force your opinions on others is going to get you anywhere. All that does is create more frustration and stress for yourself, which in turn becomes a vicious cycle, creating even more frustration for yourself later. Hakuna Matata! Que Sera Sera. Don't worry. Be happy!

... and yes, to some, the market is a game.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

The market may not be a game to you. However, for those with enough cash to blow, all markets are a game, both in game and in real life.

Well, money is money in everywhere. For that reason you are owner of shops inside EU; then you need buy low and sell high, your goal is profit. If this were only a game for you, maybe you should smiling, buy high and sell cheap. But believe me, Bill Gates or Carlos Slim never are playing when them try with money; to have money no means play to lose it and be happy. Because the man by nature, have dreams to convert to himself in a winner.

Freedom is many things to many people. The definition of ignorance varies from person to person. Just because you want people to do things your way and see things your way does not mean you can ever force them to see it your way, even if you had all the time in the world to discuss the matter with them and give them your side of the story as to why you want them to believe what you believe.

Yes its true. You are the side of professional sellers (essencially); you have the another side of the true. I suppose that sellers could reading your words and to be very agreed with you; however this thread try about the economy seen as a whole; as the focus of the mayority, not for an only class.

However, as any psychologist will tell you, I don't think you trying to force your opinions on others is going to get you anywhere. All that does is create more frustration and stress for yourself, which in turn becomes a vicious cycle, creating even more frustration for yourself later. Hakuna Matata! Que Sera Sera. Don't worry. Be happy!

I have not frustration . Believe me, i learned many things about the game. And today i can say you that this game is the most amazing game of all games of its kind . This is a puzzle for intelligent people, this is a truely virtual world. This is really amazing. However, i can not to avoid to share with the rest part of my knowledges. (Or my opinions like you prefer). And yes.. Hakuna Matata with you. And Don´t worry. Be happy too! Because, improvements in the economy for everyone does not necessarily mean your bankruptcy.

... and yes, to some, the market is a game.

In fact, i will love you, if someday, you are buying to high prices, and after, you are selling cheap in your shop!! Hakuna Matata again. What will be..will be!!

 

[Harmony.]

You a clearly not a crafter, maybe you should try it for a while and then review this post

 

[Xavier_Jr]

You a clearly not a crafter, maybe you should try it for a while and then review this post

In fact, the model of the game suggest to use the three professions. However, the reality is different. ET say to us that number of hunters is three times number of miners; and the number of miners is 1.5 times the number of crafters.
Probably is better to have the three professions; as i can see in your tracker, you have practice the three professions; and i can see too, that you prefer to be a crafter. That suggest to me, that may be recomendable to do crafting too at nowdays. Thank you so much!

 

[DoubleWolf]

Very good points there. The problem in this economy is that people still view it as a game, and not as a profit opportunity.

It always bewilders me that people complain about the returns they get in game and then turn around and list their items lower than the rest of the market. If you don't like what you're looting, you should at least be trying to get every bit of ped you can out of what you DO get. That's the only way to stay afloat in this game. You need to put the work in yourself. It's not like Mindark should be doing you a favor and giving you money

It isn't very hard work either. Treat it like a game and have fun with it. Just because it doesn't involve firing a gun at something doesn't mean it can't be entertaining. I actually prefer the buying/selling side of the game to the "action" side because it provides a challenge that I have to use my brain for. The rest of the game is just boring, mindless, repetitive actions that I'm only doing so I can get some stuff to sell.

As far as the market history goes, I think too many people rely on it as a crutch to determine an item's worth. It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it, which is kind of independent of what it's been sold for in the past. If you're holding onto an item, and you see that there are none currently for sale, you should be listing it for MORE than what the history says. You end up missing out on peds you could've gotten if you list it at or below.

Also, to take into account ALL forms of trading into the history could prove difficult, or even impossible. Auction is easy and that's what we have now. Shops shouldn't be too difficult to incorporate. The private trades would be impossible though. Sometimes items are bought with other items, or multiple items are bought at one time. There would be no way to assess the value of an individual item because of this. And I don't see how you could differentiate between retail and wholesale values. Sometimes the end user is the one buying in bulk for cheap, or the one standing on the street shouting out that they are buying ores. Usually you need a business permit or have an account with a manufacturer to buy things at wholesale pricing, which is something that couldn't be easily implemented, or welcomed for that matter in EU. All players have the same opportunity and are looking to buy with different intentions. Whether it's to turn around and sell or to use themselves shouldn't matter, and I don't feel like that's something that really needs a distinction in this game.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Very good points there. The problem in this economy is that people still view it as a game, and not as a profit opportunity.

Well, that is the idea from this thread: to find good points. I think to avoid the complaining in excess, people must to know that as Mindark anounces: "More than a game" really contains the real philosophy of this game.

All players have the same opportunity and are looking to buy with different intentions. Whether it's to turn around and sell or to use themselves shouldn't matter, and I don't feel like that's something that really needs a distinction in this game.

It is very pleasure to me, that a player as you with so short real experience in the game has a good opinion. However, the problem is not the buyers. Buyers knows perfectly why and how needs to do buying. The problem is the unexperienced sellers (comon and newbie players) and how they can affect the economy as a whole.

 

[mastermesh]

i will love you, if someday, you are buying to high prices, and after, you are selling cheap in your shop!

you'd be surprised how often us shop owners do just that!

 

[Xavier_Jr]

you'd be surprised how often us shop owners do just that!

I love you... hehehe

 

[Spawn]

I think another reason for the freefall of items is the increasing lack of need to want the item.
In the same universe at a different time, ppl would want a certain gun, because they knew, if they skilled and skilled, and got good enough the gun's price tag would pay itself back through loot.
Nowadays no matter what you try, you end up on the loosing end of the stick. Why should I invest in that killer armour or buy that killer gun, if the ppl who use it now also claim they don't really profit with it anymore. Maybe I should also sell out, and do snables instead with an opalo.. At least you lose less then doing argo with a p4a/a104, let alone doing high end mobs with the biggest armour and gun you can afford.

There is a way out of all this. Mindark needs to get out of greed mode, sell the castle and return the loots to what they were to pre vu 9.4 .Give players a global every 200 ped, instead of once in every 500 argo's. If some ppl start to break even again, or loose only slightly (instead of 50% losses they have now) then confidence returns. Confidence is a major factor to uphold an economy.

 

[DoubleWolf]

It is very pleasure to me, that a player as you with so short real experience in the game has a good opinion.

What does my mining global have to do with anything? This seems like a back-handed compliment to me...

I've been in this game for two and a half years and played nearly every day. For that matter, I also haven't deposited in over a year, my account is worth more than the sum of my deposits, and I still manage to play as much as I want. You don't have to blow thousands of ped a day to figure things out around here...

The skills you bring into the game are more important then how much money you spend...

However, the problem is not the buyers. Buyers knows perfectly why and how needs to do buying. The problem is the unexperienced sellers (comon and newbie players) and how they can affect the economy as a whole.

I agree. But how do you propose they track "wholesale" and "retail" price?

 

[SunnyS]

Couple of points to note ....

Supply and demand is a bit warped in the game .... which can be fixed by MA.

Now, as a crafter I know I can easily get mats for certain BPs and when I am online I wanna play, so I opt for your OA's, Abrers, Springs, XR's etc.... which is the case with most crafters. So what happens is the same low level products get cycled and recycled because crafters such as myself that can craft high level stuff dont normally do because of the little supply of certain mats....

Again, to top the vicious circle off... when we do craft low level stuff the MU isn't enough to put it in auction after the auction fees so it becomes tt food...

I personally feel that the virtual economy is so volatile that the only way to control a good cash flow for both MA and it's participants is to hike up the TT value of products rather than depending on the decision of certain individuals whether to undercut their competitors....

If the virtual economy has to come close to what we know in real life... it has to have some sort of a balancing act... we dont normally go and buy our regular usable items from ebay do we?

I dont know... in MA's favour, I think their supply system is based on the demand we create so it's not their fault that we keep creating more and more demand for low level stuff as it's easy and we all want to play 'right now'... I am as much a culprit of the mindset as anyone else...

Oh well.... if I confused you more than I confused myself... my job is done lol...

Anyways... GL to all... enjoy the game

 

[Xavier_Jr]

I agree. But how do you propose they track "wholesale" and "retail" price?

The umbral (limits) for this can be made based on units sells or peds sales. However, the exact amount need a study, Mindark have all transactions data, and them perfectly can determine the best umbrals.

 

[DoubleWolf]

Doesn't the market graph already satisfy this need?

If you ignore the average trend line, you can see the exact markup that an item was sold for in the past. I already use this info a lot when placing bids on items on the auction. (Here's a money-saving tip: When looking to bid on an item, place a bid below the trend line, but a little above the lowest price the item was purchased for in the past. This makes it easier to slip the item past the players that would just like to flip it to turn a profit)

I don't use this info so much when I'm selling, as I prefer to look at how much supply is on the market. I didn't do this quite as much before when we couldn't sort the auction, but searching and sorting has made this process extremely easy. The problem is judging the demand, and then guessing how much supply may come after you list your item. Another factor is how long you are willing to wait for the sale. Many players don't want to deal with all this and just want their peds NOW so they list at the lowest price in order to make a quick sale.

I fear that even if you do all you can to educate players about how to properly sell an item, there will always be players out there that will disregard all of this in order to make that quick sale and get back to playing. And since they aren't concerned about turning a profit, or even think that it's possible, it becomes useless to them to even try.

At any rate, the bigger issue here is simple supply and demand economics. Too much supply for the amount of demand means the price will drop. If the demand is high, the price will stay high, regardless of the players that try to undercut the market. The problem arises when there are more players trying to undercut the market than players trying to buy their goods. The undercut listings start to pile up on each other if no one is buying the goods, and this will drive the price down faster. If they could somehow fix the demand across the board, you would see the price on things start to rise.

 

[Few Scars]

A point to add is that for the smaller items, there is usually movement and trends within the auction house to base prices from. With the bigger uber items on sale most of the time there is no auction data or very old data. Thus the value of an item boils down to the sellers best guess based on old EF (PCF) data.
The fall in prices for bigger items seems to have slowed. My guess now people won't sell for crap prices so are holding on to their items while the economy recovers.

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Doesn't the market graph already satisfy this need?

No. Because dont make difference betwen the sales for wholesale and retail. Actually it is not central to know the price of the past time, if not, dont letting that, because little information, always is pushing prices downward.

I understand that the proposal implies that street resellers (with low capitals) could be affected, by generating a real improvement for materials finders and product generators (hunters, miners and crafters); but this virtual world is designed for them: Hunters, Miners, Crafters and Shop Owners (It wants or not, is not for resellers that do not collaborate in a productive chain or added value for the economy).

 

[DoubleWolf]

Perhaps I'm focusing too much on your use of the words "wholesale" and "retail" to describe what you mean. It sounds like what you're suggesting is for Mindark to implement a feature into the market history that shows the prices as more of a "low price to high price" format similar to say "102%-115%" instead of a straight forward "108%" like is used now. I still believe the market graph is fine for providing you with all this information, it just isn't in a quick format like the average number is now.

However, I don't think this feature would be enough to alleviate the problem of falling prices. Since it is so easy to sort the auction and see exactly what your competition is selling an item for, people will continue to use this method to undercut the market. It's not just new players that undercut prices either. I've seen some long time players, who I would consider to be quite knowledgeable, undercutting the market on some items.

It's more about people's drive to make a quick, guaranteed sale than it is about players that don't understand how to read the market.

 

[Hijacker27]

If you think people are selling things too cheaply, just buy it all and relist..

 

[SunnyS]

My opinion.....

The problem with this type of economy is you can NEVER determine it based on the real world rules/laws of economy...
why.... simple because people (crafters) who recycle the peds dont co-rellate to manufacturers in real life.

You might be saying... "what the hell are you on about?"...well... think of it this way ... If i am a crafter and I manufacture a product each time I use the mats for it, I will be happy to sell that product in due time and even make a profit.... but because manufacturing doesnt return exact amount of products, crafters tend to undercut prices to keep going or to recycle for another run....

Imagine IRL you go and order a car and 'toyota' comes back to you and says sorry we tried five times and we only got 1/2 a car and some residue ...that doesnt happen does it?? .... supply and demand only works when the production is a constant... but in this game everything is a variant ...

Unless you have a system where you need a certain level of skill you cant manufacture anything, you just get res or when you do you do it everytime .... but that's not how the game is set up... so in other words doesnt matter how much people try to do graphs and MU research... shit always changes .... at the end of the day if people cant support their gameplay time they will underquote to keep playing ... it's a game after all...

 

[Xavier_Jr]

Since it is so easy to sort the auction and see exactly what your competition is selling an item for, people will continue to use this method to undercut the market.

That is the problem to which this thread is concerned. The wrong readings from auction that newbies can do. As you said before, you have two an half years inside the game. Maybe, you have not many activity in the main professions of the game, however, you can read very well the information of the auction; but noobs and newbies not. This generates two things. An space for street resellers who knows how must to read the auction and buying its materials from newbies for reselling to crafters; because the newbies dont know that them can selling his items in auction for himself without high loses. And second, when noobs and newbies sells directly his materials in auction using wrong or incomplete information, then only choose put his prices in (AVG MU - 1). For that reason, is the suggestion, to avoid this facts and its consequences: the free fall of MUs.