Is it possible to (consistently) profit with an Imp. Mk.II + Mod. FAP?

[RobBuona]

This is something I was wondering. Obviously these two items are pretty much the best of the best, so this got me wondering: is it possibly to regularly profit with these two items? From what I have read/heard, Entropia is designed so that players will make ~90% return in the long run, but that would have to vary based on the different weapon/FAP/armor combinations. Since I don't know the math behind the 90% figure, I am wondering if having these two uber items would allow a person to regularly profit from hunting. Because if not, what's the point of spending over 450K PED on two items? If all you're doing is say making your return ~99% instead of 90%, how is that worth it?

If someone can explain the math behind the returns, that may be helpful.

 

[Kerham]

90% represents TT calculation. Profit is doable via market price of loot. Arguable how much of profit comes from luck and how much from knowledge.

I wouldn't give however a straight answer since I never used such item and 45k$ ain't to be joked about.

As for math behind returns, is as simple as income/expenses. Be wary tho that 90% is bordering urban myth, is a number observed by players and never ever publicly backed/promised by MA. Also we have no clue what influences the tt income (i.e. loot) so any kind of anticipating math is just that, prediction.

Those items tho are the cheapest to use in their class (in terms of efficiency of every action versus noticeable effect). Respectively there's no (or maybe 1-2) cheaper choices than imk2 to produce say 2000 dmg points in X interval of time. What loot will give those 2000 dmg however, that we can only speculate.

 

[JohnCapital]

There is two parts to every items cost:

• TT value
• Markup

TT value is controlled and can't increased beyond the items max.

Markup is player determined and can be anything from +0.01 to +1,000,000,000

You can't win via just TT value.

Hope that helps.

 

[Freddy M]

Go with the right Weapon, the right Armor to the right Mob, That´s a easy rule. You will get back ~ 90%. The rest is MU

Greetz

 

[RobBuona]

There is two parts to every items cost:

• TT value
• Markup

TT value is controlled and can't increased beyond the items max.

Markup is player determined and can be anything from +0.01 to +1,000,000,000

You can't win via just TT value.

Hope that helps.

Oh, I've been playing for a couple of months and have read a lot, so that's a dynamic of which I'm already aware. However, I wasn't necessarily aware that one who possesses these two items still has to rely on markup.

It's really pretty scary when you consider their cost, since there's no way to be sure you'll be getting high MU loot.

 

[Hope WolfGang]

Mod fap you can profit with a healing service

 

[RobBuona]

Mod fap you can profit with a healing service

Of course. But my question in the OP intentionally ignores that type of situation, since you'd be making money from other players and not by "playing the game."

 

[Kerham]

Of course. But my question in the OP intentionally ignores that type of situation, since you'd be making money from other players and not by "playing the game."

It is impossible to make money from "playing the game" in the same sense that's impossible to make money from a casino, even if this old lady only played 10$ all her life and she hit this 1M jackpot. Markup is also a form of getting money from other players since I can't see MA coming with money from their pockets, I mean I don't see the business sense in that.

 

[Kimmi]

This is something I was wondering. Obviously these two items are pretty much the best of the best, so this got me wondering: is it possibly to regularly profit with these two items? From what I have read/heard, Entropia is designed so that players will make ~90% return in the long run, but that would have to vary based on the different weapon/FAP/armor combinations. Since I don't know the math behind the 90% figure, I am wondering if having these two uber items would allow a person to regularly profit from hunting. Because if not, what's the point of spending over 450K PED on two items? If all you're doing is say making your return ~99% instead of 90%, how is that worth it?

If someone can explain the math behind the returns, that may be helpful.

There is an easy answer to you question.

-Do you see anyone selling imk2 for less then 100k ped.
-Do you see anyone selling modfap for less then 300k ped?

As long as the ubers in this game are not flooding the market with their uber items, you can be safe that they are (give or take) worth their actually MU value.
This is not a bulletproof strategy, but its very good indicator and damn close.

When Warants, Art of War and Uber Ubers.... starts selling their shit... thats when you cashout.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

When Warants, Art of War and Uber Ubers.... starts selling their shit... thats when you cashout.

Wouldn't it be "When they fail to sell their shit and has to lower their price to get rid of it"?

I mean, since them selling it at the same price would also mean that someone bought it, so nothing really changed, it would only be a kind of 'circulation'

 

[xillonz]

There is two parts to every items cost:
TT value is controlled and can't increased beyond the items max.

It sounds like you are suggesting that regardless of the eco of your set up, you are still going to get ~90% return, is there data that supports this available?

 

[RobBuona]

It is impossible to make money from "playing the game" in the same sense that's impossible to make money from a casino, even if this old lady only played 10$ all her life and she hit this 1M jackpot. Markup is also a form of getting money from other players since I can't see MA coming with money from their pockets, I mean I don't see the business sense in that.

You'd think so. But I've been talking to people who are profiting from just playing the game, and they aren't even using uber items, nor are they particularly skilled.

What I haven't figured out is if they're just riding waves of short-term luck or if they will be able to profit in the long run. That's more or less what made me start this thread.

 

[Kerham]

It sounds like you are suggesting that regardless of the eco of your set up, you are still going to get ~90% return, is there data that supports this available?

Is there data to support that eco matters over 1M peds (eco vs uneco for same ped spent)? No.

What he really said however is that imk2 has a max tt of 1k ped.

You'd think so. But I've been talking to people who are profiting from just playing the game, and they aren't even using uber items, nor are they particularly skilled.

What I haven't figured out is if they're just riding waves of short-term luck or if they will be able to profit in the long run. That's more or less what made me start this thread.

Let's be sure we're talking same thing. If I understand correctly, you mean by "playing the game" = tt profit. It might be possible that some player experience this all their ingame life (infact I have a friend who apparently has constant TT profit), but that's a result of statistic rather than strategy. Is relevant here the example of the old lady taking the jackpot in her first evening in a casino. While calculating all casino players and making an average, them all have to lose.

With a large enough population, you can meet individual examples of most strange TT loot evolution along time, but in average you'll end up at a small loss (90%ish income) forcing you to sell stuff for markup in order to reach/aspire to breakeven/profit. Because markup itself is the driving force behind deposits, ultimately, if you see the game as a giant circuit, like a spider web pushing all ways, all directions various transactions.

I'm sorry for using all these contextual explanations, but there is no straight general answer.

Is it possible that those friends of yours profit now continuous in tt terms, for real? Yes, likely. Is it possible they're just bragging? Yes, likely also. Is it possible such luck to last for years? Yes, but so unlikely that is exceptional. Is it possible for all active EU players to profit continuous in TT terms? No, impossible. Is any recipe behind such luck? Yes, if you ask somebody actually being lucky, their method is THE recipe, even if it involves banging the head against the wall. Uberitems might be invoked as such recipe by somebody having such luck.

You must always reffer to reasonably measurable standards, and those are the tools' stats. You can say that imk2 magically brings good loot, but the buyer should actually believe in magic.

 

[Manix6]

You'd think so. But I've been talking to people who are profiting from just playing the game, and they aren't even using uber items, nor are they particularly skilled.

What I haven't figured out is if they're just riding waves of short-term luck or if they will be able to profit in the long run. That's more or less what made me start this thread.

Thats the common misconception in here, you dont (can't) profit from the game (atleast longterm), instead you profit from the people.

Think of it this way:

X = number of peds total deposed to-date
Y = total number of ped value of all players inventories

I believe that the "system" tracks the deficit of (Y-X) and then uses this to calculate return rates to fudge the value generated from (Y-X) to be a profit for MA equal to what they want to take.

Take this simplifed system:

There are 3 players, A, B and C, each depost $100,

A hunts for x time and gets a return of $90

B mines for x time and gets a return of $110

C crafts for x time and gets a return of $70

In this case at the end of x amount of time, the players values are averaged out to $90 each, and the "house" has skimmed off $30 for the privilage of using their game.

You can see that in this case it is possible for players to go into positive figures, however it isn't at the expense of MA, just at that of others.

In response to your question of Can players profit using imp mkII + Mod Fap (or any gear for that matter), the answer is who the hell knows? The only certainty you have in this game is that you can minimise your losses and maximise your income, or as my company likes to adopt as its motto: "minimum spend, maximum gain".

Yes there is a chance of profiting from tt value from the system, but this is pure luck, the only certain way you can attempt to profit is from getting your lost peds from other players (in whatever method you decide)

 

[xillonz]

Thats the common misconception in here, you dont (can't) profit from the game (atleast longterm), instead you profit from the people.

Think of it this way:

X = number of peds total deposed to-date
Y = total number of ped value of all players inventories

I believe that the "system" tracks the deficit of (Y-X) and then uses this to calculate return rates to fudge the value generated from (Y-X) to be a profit for MA equal to what they want to take.

I see this hypothesis given all the time, it seems like lots of people believe this is how the system works - however I have never seen 1 person give the slightest bit of evidence for this being the case. Why do you believe this is how the system is?


Also - it seems like at least a decent amount of the time, when people say "you don't profit off TT, but other people" they mean you profit due to markup - not because of some special system.

 

[Manix6]

I see this hypothesis given all the time, it seems like lots of people believe this is how the system works - however I have never seen 1 person give the slightest bit of evidence for this being the case. Why do you believe this is how the system is?


Also - it seems like at least a decent amount of the time, when people say "you don't profit off TT, but other people" they mean you profit due to markup - not because of some special system.

What evidence can be given unless anyone who believes in a theory has access to the codes and algorithms that distribute loot, until they can be proven thats all their are a hypothesis or a theory, there are alot of theories in mathematics which are impossible to prove, yet normal human logic leads you to believe that they are true, yet there is no possible way within our current mathematical system to prove that they are indeed true. This is very much the case for entropia,

I believe this is the way that entropia works for many reasons, 1. i am a programmer and this strikes me as the most sound way of working a house always wins system, 2. i am a logician so i dont belive in luck, alignment of stars or any of that other nonsense, entropia is all statistics and predictable uncertainty

And profiting from other people does indeed mean markup in the most of cases, as you have made someone buy something off you for more then its worth according to the system, therefore increasing your net worth with regards to the system,

 

[xillonz]

What evidence can be given unless anyone who believes in a theory has access to the codes and algorithms that distribute loot, until they can be proven thats all their are a hypothesis or a theory, there are alot of theories in mathematics which are impossible to prove, yet normal human logic leads you to believe that they are true, yet there is no possible way within our current mathematical system to prove that they are indeed true. This is very much the case for entropia,

I believe this is the way that entropia works for many reasons, 1. i am a programmer and this strikes me as the most sound way of working a house always wins system, 2. i am a logician so i dont belive in luck, alignment of stars or any of that other nonsense, entropia is all statistics and predictable uncertainty

And profiting from other people does indeed mean markup in the most of cases, as you have made someone buy something off you for more then its worth according to the system, therefore increasing your net worth with regards to the system,

The irony is that you start off by saying that we can't have evidence unless we have access to the code, and then further down the post proceed to try and provide some evidence. But anyway, even though people often end up believing stuff that isn't proven it doesn't suggest that we _ought_ to do this. Perhaps these people are just being irrational. With respect to mathematical theories, people might rationally believe they are the case because there is _some_ evidence for them (there are no counter examples found perhaps), even though it's not proven 100% (which is usually what we demand within maths).

So yes, I would like to see _some_ evidence for any loot theory before we start saying it's reasonable to believe.

With respect to the evidence you gave, I guess I can't take your word for it that it is the most sound system (assuming the MA programmers are being sensible). Prima facie there are other similarly reasonable systems - after all casinos don't have to use a system like the one described earlier, but the house wins in the long run nonetheless.

 

[Aio]

Speculation is fun. Buy one and fine out

 

[Qwackers]

Eco does effect base return

This graph, complied last year, shows the base loot (excluding minis and globals) of 2500 Flax young. The x axsis shows the total tt-cost to kill vs the tt-base loot. The red line shows the 100% tt return line. What it shows is that it cost this hunter between 7.5 to 12 Ped to kill a Falx young with a lvl 70/70 Imp MKII, Mod Fap and I forget what aromor he used. The base loot was distributed in four distinct bands that critically remained level accross the cost to kill range. So you can see that on the top left of the distribution Falx were killed for 7.5 to 9.5 ped but gave base loot higher than the cost to kill. This is not due to a mini as they start around the 30Ped. Irrispective of the cost to kill the base loot tops out at ca. 9.5 Ped.

So the cheaper, more eco you can kill a Falx young, the greater the chance you will get a base loot greater than the tt cost to kill. As the weapon becomes more eco (high level) the distribution moves to the left but the loot bands stay the same base valve.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

 

[RobBuona]

All I know is that coming in, I was pretty excited about this game. But then along the way, I found out how many things MindArk has done to make things more difficult for the player.

I believe the system should work in such a way that those who really know what they're doing can play for free (no deposits, no sweating, no trading, etc.), while the newbies and such throw away money to keep the system going. But as I'm learning, this really doesn't work this way, and only those who deposit/sweat/trade/get really lucky or some combination of those are the ones who can continue. Apparently newbies throwing their money away just isn't enough.

Sucks, but I'm learning that's the reality of Entropia. And since I'm not the lucky ones, not rich and sweating/trading don't seem very realistic in the long run, I probably won't be around too much longer. It's really too bad because this game seems to have so much potential. Or maybe that potential was being realized 3-4 years ago and it no longer is? Yeah, I think that's it...

 

[Parlog]

loot varies, good days and bad days to come, i doubt this changes with Mod Fap and IMK2K. But when maxed you safe a lot of ped in armor costs, fap costs and decay on the gun while playing on a very high level very efficiently and thus the bad times will be a lot less bad and the good times a lot more good. If you follow the rules of the market, play with a big enough turnover so you can stack up all the stackables and sell em in high quantities what reduces auc-fees i am 100% sure you can play with a constant profit where bad days mean just even out and not like 60-90% return.

 

[xillonz]

All I know is that coming in, I was pretty excited about this game. But then along the way, I found out how many things MindArk has done to make things more difficult for the player.

I believe the system should work in such a way that those who really know what they're doing can play for free (no deposits, no sweating, no trading, etc.), while the newbies and such throw away money to keep the system going. But as I'm learning, this really doesn't work this way, and only those who deposit/sweat/trade/get really lucky or some combination of those are the ones who can continue. Apparently newbies throwing their money away just isn't enough.

Sucks, but I'm learning that's the reality of Entropia. And since I'm not the lucky ones, not rich and sweating/trading don't seem very realistic in the long run, I probably won't be around too much longer. It's really too bad because this game seems to have so much potential. Or maybe that potential was being realized 3-4 years ago and it no longer is? Yeah, I think that's it...

Actually I'd just conclude that you dont really know what you're doing.

 

[xillonz]

This graph, complied last year, shows the base loot (excluding minis and globals) of 2500 Flax young. The x axsis shows the total tt-cost to kill vs the tt-base loot. The red line shows the 100% tt return line. What it shows is that it cost this hunter between 7.5 to 12 Ped to kill a Falx young with a lvl 70/70 Imp MKII, Mod Fap and I forget what aromor he used. The base loot was distributed in four distinct bands that critically remained level accross the cost to kill range. So you can see that on the top left of the distribution Falx were killed for 7.5 to 9.5 ped but gave base loot higher than the cost to kill. This is not due to a mini as they start around the 30Ped. Irrispective of the cost to kill the base loot tops out at ca. 9.5 Ped.

So the cheaper, more eco you can kill a Falx young, the greater the chance you will get a base loot greater than the tt cost to kill. As the weapon becomes more eco (high level) the distribution moves to the left but the loot bands stay the same base valve.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

This is really interesting, but I have no idea what you mean by "base loot".

 

[RobBuona]

Actually I'd just conclude that you dont really know what you're doing.

Err...

I've used guns on which I'm maxed, on mobs they can handle without too much ammo burn. Yet I'm losing money. But that's what the system is designed for - so what do you mean exactly?

 

[xillonz]

Err...

I've used guns on which I'm maxed, on mobs they can handle without too much ammo burn. Yet I'm losing money. But that's what the system is designed for - so what do you mean exactly?

Maybe you are hunting the wrong mobs, or maybe hunting isn't the way to go at all, perhaps mining or crafting is where it's at?

 

[RobBuona]

Maybe you are hunting the wrong mobs, or maybe hunting isn't the way to go at all, perhaps mining or crafting is where it's at?

I've tried mining (a bit) and it didn't go all that great. And since crafting requires so much PED and you really have about the same chance of success, it doesn't seem that lucrative to me.

 

[xillonz]

I've tried mining (a bit) and it didn't go all that great. And since crafting requires so much PED and you really have about the same chance of success, it doesn't seem that lucrative to me.

Well there you go, you wouldn't expect to really understand the game if you haven't done that much.

 

[RobBuona]

Well there you go, you wouldn't expect to really understand the game if you haven't done that much.

But it doesn't matter really. Everything is a gamble, so if I go all into hunting, researching every last aspect of it, the reality is that in the long run markup is the only thing that will give me a realistic chance to cover my ass. But mining/crafting are no different (they're all luck really) so no matter what, markup and a bit of luck are the only ways you can hope to play for free. Not sure what else there is to understand, because that's how it goes.

 

[xillonz]

But it doesn't matter really. Everything is a gamble, so if I go all into hunting, researching every last aspect of it, the reality is that in the long run markup is the only thing that will give me a realistic chance to cover my ass. But mining/crafting are no different (they're all luck really) so no matter what, markup and a bit of luck are the only ways you can hope to play for free. Not sure what else there is to understand, because that's how it goes.

Ah I assumed understanding the economy would come under really knowing what you are doing. No it seems like for TT value only, profiting isn't really possible in the long run.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Is it possible to always profit? If you believe you can then you will . Of course you need to put yourself in a position where you can do that. So after believing you can profit, there needs to be corresponding action, so go & buy your IMK2 or even AIMK2 & Mod Fap, then begin to enjoy endless spoils in EU .