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Concerning transparency on player costs/expected values

Crabby said:
When amale got his ATH there is no way in hell he lost anywhere close to that kind of money, a crucial piece of evidence against 'personal loot pool' theory if MA's statement debunking it wasn't enough evidence as is (according to ZPF).
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There are pools for crafting, mining, and hunting and the bonus pool. How do you know his lost ped wasnt added onto the loot he got from the pool? You cant say its against a claim when you have no proof. MA's statement on the personal loot pool isnt a 100% guarantee that they were talking about lost ped coming back. After all, they do mistranslate a lot of stuff by accident and could have also interpreted the message the MA official replied to wrong.
 
Gopher said:
There are pools for crafting, mining, and hunting and the bonus pool. How do you know his lost ped wasnt added onto the loot he got from the pool? You cant say its against a claim when you have no proof. MA's statement on the personal loot pool isnt a 100% guarantee that they were talking about lost ped coming back. After all, they do mistranslate a lot of stuff by accident and could have also interpreted the message the MA official replied to wrong.
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What you are telling me is "How do you know leprechauns aren't roaming the woods, you can't say they don't because scientists made a claim because they might have misinterpreted and given a wrong official statement. You can't say they don't exist if they have no proof." We have a strong understanding of biology to know they don't exist. People who lack that understanding probably believe they do exist.

Like people who believe in leprechauns, You are not taking into account facts and I'm not finna repeat myself so many times. If you don't get it at this point its because you don't want to.

Edit: Another thing. MA told you guys. And you are rejecting it saying it is wrong. Why the fuck would you continue ask for their statements if you think they are wrong???? The statements aren't wrong, you just want them to tell you what you want to hear. Holy crap get a grip.
 
Crabby said:
What you are telling me is "How do you know leprechauns aren't roaming the woods, you can't say they don't because scientists made a claim because they might have misinterpreted and given a wrong official statement. You can't say they don't exist if they have no proof." We have a strong understanding of biology to know they don't exist. People who lack that understanding probably believe they do exist.

Like people who believe in leprechauns, You are not taking into account facts and I'm not finna repeat myself so many times. If you don't get it at this point its because you don't want to.

Edit: Another thing. MA told you guys. And you are rejecting it saying it is wrong. Why the fuck would you continue ask for their statements if you think they are wrong???? The statements aren't wrong, you just want them to tell you what you want to hear. Holy crap get a grip.
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Thinking that MA hasn't made a shit ton of mistakes in the past and still does, even severe ones, is a severe lack of judgement. This thread has derailed into arguments over stuff people have no proof of. I am going to trust the loot 2.0 dev notes, which have not failed me, and my personal experience with loot. I have always gotten my lost ped back through a big global or hof. Its easy to see loot ups and downs, and my ups always give back a majority of what my downs took. After so many times, its not a coincidence.
 
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Gopher said:
I have always gotten my lost ped back through a big global or hof
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That is the law of large numbers doing its work.

Another thing...
A global: If loot greater than or equal to 50 (on most mobs), then announce global, play trumpets, play swirly.
A hof: If loot is greater than or equal to 50 (on most mobs), AND greater than the lowest recorded global, then announce HOF, play louder trumpets, play bigger swirly.

I can get a hof out of 10 PED from a fugabarba if it happens right after some globals expire from the list. Some one right before me could have killed a feffox for 40 ped and it wouldnt even be a global.

I've had runs hours long in which I didn't get ANY swirlies, and profited well.

I've had runs in similar time spans where I did get globals and lost ped.

And vise versa.

Those swirls are just entirely visual :LOL:
They are not something extra being injected from your prior hunts.

What you are 'seeing' you are making up as you go.
 
Crabby said:
When amale got his ATH there is no way in hell he lost anywhere close to that kind of money, a crucial piece of evidence against 'personal loot pool' theory if MA's statement debunking it wasn't enough evidence as is (according to ZPF).
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No where did I say I believe in "personal loot pools" (whatever that means) or that avatar loot is entirely isolated to your PED input.

You seem to have a very low tolerance for nuance and want neat and tidy explanations for everything, which makes this discussion a waste of time.

You have no evidence to support your claims and no basis to reject others, you're just tooting your own horn and throwing out insults in desperation.
 
ZPF said:
No where did I say I believe in "personal loot pools" (whatever that means)
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You can't be serious.

ZPF said:
"There is no personal loot pool" does not mean "future returns are unaffected by past returns".
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You described personal loot pools. You reject MA's statement regarding personal loot pools because you say you have observed otherwise. If you want to refer to it as a personal loot pool or not, or assume MA could have been talking about something else, thats your problem. It is a personal loot pool, and thats what you are trying to insinuate exists.

But now you don't even know what a personal loot pool is, yet still feel strongly against MA's statement about it. You are all over the place.

"There is no personal loot pool" does not mean means "future returns are unaffected by past returns".
 
Crabby said:
But now you don't even know what a personal loot pool is, yet still feel strongly against MA's statement about it. You are all over the place.
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It seems you got lost somewhere so let me help you.

Your claim: "MA wasn't lying"
My claim: "MA was doing PR damage control and not giving us useful information"

If your definition of "personal loot pool" is that loot is completely isolated to your avatar input has no interaction with anything outside of that, then I agree with you and MA. It does not exist. Feel free to show me where I claimed it exists.

My point was that saying this "Personal loot pool" does not exist, does NOT equate to saying "Past returns have absolutely zero effect whatsoever on future returns".

My point is MA did not rule this out with their PR statement. To leap to that conclusion requires a lot of faith in MA.

To me it looks like their goal was to shut down conspiracy theorists but maintain plausible deniability (like any good politician) and not give us any useful insight into how loot may or may not work.

Neither of us has concrete evidence to convince the other that this is or is not the case. So what can we gain from this discussion, at this point? It comes down to trusting MA & their intentions.
 
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Crabby said:
That is the law of large numbers doing its work.

Another thing...
A global: If loot greater than or equal to 50 (on most mobs), then announce global, play trumpets, play swirly.
A hof: If loot is greater than or equal to 50 (on most mobs), AND greater than the lowest recorded global, then announce HOF, play louder trumpets, play bigger swirly.

I can get a hof out of 10 PED from a fugabarba if it happens right after some globals expire from the list. Some one right before me could have killed a feffox for 40 ped and it wouldnt even be a global.

I've had runs hours long in which I didn't get ANY swirlies, and profited well.

I've had runs in similar time spans where I did get globals and lost ped.

And vise versa.

Those swirls are just entirely visual :LOL:
They are not something extra being injected from your prior hunts.

What you are 'seeing' you are making up as you go.
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5-10k loot events isn't big enough for the law of large numbers to apply. Yes, swirls are visual but the tt amount is not, and I was referring the tt amount when I said it.
 
ZPF said:
If your definition of "personal loot pool" is that loot is completely isolated to your avatar input has no interaction with anything outside of that, then I agree with you and MA. It does not exist. Feel free to show me where I claimed it exists.
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Then you really don't know what theory behind personal loot pools is.

Read this thread.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ate-for-previous-returns.283182/#post-3774008

That is what personal loot pool is, that is what MA has stated does not exist.

Gopher said:
5-10k loot events isn't big enough for the law of large numbers to apply.
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The law of large numbers is always in effect. If you hunt at a consistent pace, globals are an every day thing. They are nothing all that special. Over a larger amount of time, and as you continue to add more loot instances, its gonna creep you closer and closer to the expected average %.
 
Crabby said:
That is what personal loot pool is, that is what MA has stated does not exist.
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Yes this is where we disagree. I haven't seen any proof that MA has acknowledged this definition.

99% of players don't even know or care what "personal loot pool" is. EU players rarely agree on anything except "loot sucks".

Until I see MA say "past does not effect future, period", I will continue to be skeptical. You may think that's foolish, but I have my reasons.
 
ZPF said:
Yes this is where we disagree. I haven't seen any proof that MA has acknowledged this definition.

99% of players don't even know or care what "personal loot pool" is. EU players rarely agree on anything except "loot sucks".

Until I see MA say "past does not effect future, period", I will continue to be skeptical. You may think that's foolish, but I have my reasons.
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Lol
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
It would be interesting to know what they did in the past? was such data preserved when we changed engines or went from loot 1 to loot 2? So for older players who have played since beginning has their data been preserved?

The original thread was:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...ent-with-player-costs-expected-values.295070/
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Data is definitely not preserved.... at least not since the beginning.

In previous support tickets Mindark has mentioned that they cannot track some things like trades back after a certain point since they no longer have the data. I suspect they changed the rules a lot over time as database changes, server changes, etc.

Loot system is basically a progressive slot machine... it probably tracks long enough to allow for support to make some allowances in support tickets, etc. if something happened like no loot on big mob, etc. but aftter x amount of months I suspect that all that data just goes away, purged for newer data to replace it.
Most companies have to keep data long enough to meet legal requirements, and that's it... once it's past a certain point it's gone... forever...
 
Interesting discussion about personal loot pools. Personally I'm undecided on which version(s) is correct. I try to keep an open mind. At this stage I don't have any info to suggest either of the versions is correct. I even wonder if its possible if both ideas are incorrect or indeed both correct :)

The crabby version could be right. There is indeed no personal loot pool and "Past returns have absolutely zero effect whatsoever on future returns". What we see in game that contradicts this could be done in different ways for example the "pay back global/hof" loot event goes through some kind of "imitation" mechanism to make it look like past returns affect future returns.

The ZPF version could be true and MindArks statement about no loot pools exist also true. MA may have a loot algorithm that doesn't use personal loot pools but some other mechanism.
 
Crabby said:
Loot 1.0 was also done through the law of large numbers. Loot 2.0 was aimed at our benefit more than anything. It made loot a lot less volatile. Even in 1.0, they were guaranteed to profit collectively. That has been a fundamental part of their income. It is possible for someone to come up big against MA even in 2.0. When amale got his ATH there is no way in hell he lost anywhere close to that kind of money, a crucial piece of evidence against 'personal loot pool' theory if MA's statement debunking it wasn't enough evidence as is (according to ZPF).
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Yes, I am very much in alignment that there is no personal loot pool. Noone is guaranteed anything and trends should not be confused with short term results.

Crabby said:
No, and I don't need to. I used that as a hypothetical example. You should not be offended by that AT ALL. Do not use that as a reason to deflect. It is not a good look.



And as a result make people's weapons and efficiency pointless? No. You can make do with UL weapons that arent super high efficiency. I'm sorry but your delusion is really starting to show here. If you don't like whats on your plate find a way to change that. Don't expect other people to fix your plate for you.
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Ok, so this could be a language barrier. After all, English is not my first language, I had to study it on my own. I saw nothing hypothetical about it, which is why I responded the way I did.

Also, I did provide a hypothetical example, with regards to removing looter and efficiency. But you may have fallen into same trap of thinking it was something else. MA does not need to remove those two things for us to see the effect of it. Just give everyone a unl weapon very close to each other in efficiency and then wait a while while the majority reaches level 100 looter. It will practically achieve the same thing really.

I have hope that we can continue discuss this in a civil manner, without judging each other.
 
When you look back at old project entropia and now, MA have done a lot to open up how system works to some degree.

Along with player experiments and findings over the years (thanks JimmyB, John Capital, Jedgre, and others), almost all is out there if you look around.

Game has always been about making enough mark up to cover the "rake", which with enough looting instances will even out to expected returns more or less.

Even with newish looter and efficiency people have plotted returns over large samples and posted expected returns with skill levels and efficiencies that i have seen and read (thankyou btw :) ).

Do i think things can be improved? Sure i do.
Do i follow religiously to profit? Used to play to profit, nowadays just play for fun. My cash is in stock market 100% so time is pushed to research/news. Simply not worth my time in EU, can play low budget while maintaining/researching portfolio and trends.

Is information more available now than ever before? For sure.
 
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Its a global loot Pool, thats it
Thats all about

There is no Personal loot Pool
There is no gamble
There is no high complicated math

Mindark does theyr things right

The reason why 90% fail, keep complaining is because they completely ignore every Parameter that got to do wirt efficieny

Few month ago someone did ask me if its ok to go with a weapon that got 50 efficiency, i explained him that its a very Bad idea and explained him dps dpp effi and looter

He still bought the weapon, lost his ass, didnt log since 60 days gg i wasted my time talking to him.

Upgrade Efficiency
Upgrade looter
Upgrade dpp
Develop your Avatar.

There is a reason why a weapon with 50 efficiency costs 100 ped and why a weapon with 90 costs 180k ped
 
Personal Lootpools - Many of the theories which suggest - inaccurately - that efficiency is unimportant will often employ the concept of a “personal lootpool”, claiming that the “system” will eventually provide a sort of compensation to avatars who have been operating in an inefficient manner. Such theories are very much misguided. There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars, and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars. As a result, long-term results in Entropia Universe are directly related to the choices made by each participant, and those who approach their chosen profession in an efficient manner will find more success than those who do not.
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I would just like to leave this here for those of you who still seem to have missed it.

For context, this was in dev notes 2. I believe it was (at least partly) in response to a fairly high traction topic on the forums at the time.

The efficiency mentioned in the quote has nothing to do with the parameter currently in game with the same name.
 
Ferial said:
I would just like to leave this here for those of you who still seem to have missed it.

For context, this was in dev notes 2. I believe it was (at least partly) in response to a fairly high traction topic on the forums at the time.

The efficiency mentioned in the quote has nothing to do with the parameter currently in game with the same name.
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To be fair, this dev note is from all the way back in 2012, so it could have changed by now. Its been 11 years.
 
Gopher said:
To be fair, this dev note is from all the way back in 2012, so it could have changed by now. Its been 11 years.
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The issue is these notes are pre loot 2.0.
2.0 was described as an "overhaul" of the loot system. Which likely means many new systems were put in place to accomplish their goal of better/more stable returns for players.
Ferial said:
I would just like to leave this here for those of you who still seem to have missed it.
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Thanks for posting this though. 2012 MA... wow. What a difference in communication quality.
 
ZPF said:
The issue is these notes are pre loot 2.0.
2.0 was described as an "overhaul" of the loot system. Which likely means many new systems were put in place to accomplish their goal of better/more stable returns for players.

Thanks for posting this though. 2012 MA... wow. What a difference in communication quality.
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I would have liked more clarification from the MA official if this was the definition of "no personal lootpools" that they were talking about when they posted in the loot 2.0 thread. We do know for a fact that MA does indeed track returns of players now since they put out that statement regarding the averages of loot return % within cycled ped increments.
 
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Gopher said:
I would have liked more clarification from the MA official if this was the definition of "no personal lootpools" that they were talking about when they posted in the loot 2.0 thread. We do know for a fact that MA does indeed track returns of players now since they put out that statement regarding the averages of loot return % within cycled ped increments.
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That's still cumulative, not individual. I don't think this is unclear at all. At some point, every individual's data has to go into the calculation or no accumulation is possible. What they do with the raw data after this is done, is another matter. Theoretically and technically, anything is possible, including not telling the truth. Would it be wise, or plausible, or anywhere near economical to keep such massive amounts of information for tailoring individual experiences? Any and all talk is futile when people choose to believe what they want to believe.
 
Gopher said:
I would have liked more clarification from the MA official if this was the definition of "no personal lootpools" that they were talking about when they posted in the loot 2.0 thread. We do know for a fact that MA does indeed track returns of players now since they put out that statement regarding the averages of loot return % within cycled ped increments.
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If we look at this section of the devnotes...
"There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars,
and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time,
or which provides compensation to individual avatars."

This statement seems to imply that personal lootpool and tracking/compensating are two different things, so we still don't have a reliable definition. But maybe we're just being nitpicky at this point.

Does anyone have a link to this 2.0 thread that MA commented on?

San said:
information for tailoring individual experiences?
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Personally don't think anything is being "tailored", too much effort, doesn't really make sense. However I do think 2.0 put various systems in place to protect avatars from catastrophic loss. I don't think they're relying purely on "law of large numbers" or whatever.
 
The article is a bit old but it gives a good overview of loot tables and variables associated with them. Mindark has had 20+years to develop and tweak their loot tables, associated algorithms, and game balance so there could be a lot of variables at play when determining loot.

It's a short read but it might give a little insight. Game developer is always a great read.

Defining Loot Tables in ARPG Game Design

So if you have an idea of the types of affixes and weighted actions MA might have in place at any given time a player might be able to increase the likelihood of looting great items or higher value loot but then you are competing with other avatars at the same time with the same snippets of knowledge. There are also timers at play, one only needs to look at the macro miners on certain LAs to see that in action.

The RCE makes EU a bit more personal because it carries real world consequences more so than a subscription MMO or sandbox RPG.

It may not work for me all the time but I try to mitigate expenses while maximizing loot opportunities in EU and that might mean doing something I don't normally do based on feedback I am seeing from the system. I don't macro nor do I have the ability to play 8-12 hours a day so I have to really pay attention or I risk draining ye ole ped card.
 
For the vast majority of players the system is level and probably pretty much by the numbers.

There are a small handful of influencer-players who receive (or have received) some special treatment either through insider connections or special accommodations, which if that bothers you, could understandably give you sour grapes. On the other hand, if we are keeping with the casino analogies people like to use, you could also argue that this is equivalent to comping a high roller. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Then again, communication and being up-front with people about the way things work can make a big difference.

If you want to tie certain types of perks to total account lifetime depo (or cycle) I'm not opposed to that. As long as those things are communicated.
 
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