Developer-Notes--2

Too many people believe that "efficiency" is a way to get more from the lootpool while in fact it's basically the way to give less into it.
 
Yes, I also agree. Give the oldschool unlimited weapons an actual use, but make sure (L) and unl. SIB has enough of an advantage to still be more useful.

no way,and fuck all the guys that grinded hardcore to get to level 100 ?
 
What a crock of poo.

So you are saying that when you pick up your gun, run out into the field, you are confident that you will hit good loot?

Personally I think that you have "zero" clue what your returns will be when you enter the hunting field and being your hunt.

It is simple as this, you use a gun that you know wil take down a mob...click the loot button and wait for it to open.

However the stupidity comes in when you don't know when to stop. I used to have a 200 ped rule, if no global then stop. even so with 1000 peds that give you 5 chances, and if all 5 x 200 ammo runs are really bad...then what? Blame oursleves?

please do not talk smart unless you got evidence please.

Rick

By stupidity i mean they tend to see patterns when there is none. Have you seen movies like PI or similiar. It's all about what human mind can make of things.


Mate, i'll write MINDLESSLY in caps next time so people with poor intelligence can understand what i am saying.

As of MINDLESSLY ( yeah, specially for you, cheers ) it's like.... you're better off with scips with mu loot than dasps with occasional esis and 1k hofs considering the costs. You don't know if loot will be good or suck terribly, but you are well aware of market and drops. If you wanna hunt for oils, go ahead, i'm going for x5.
 
i dont belive this statement....

i will still my believe in my 90% since my Excel say that :)

oke checked now 2011 using Foeripper maxed and got 90.66992 wtf u say now

i say "law of big numbers "..if the system pays out on average 90%(not personal..on average..so the house(ma) takes 10%)
then if you hunt long enough(like in your case) the returns wil be close to that 90%

the less you play the more the % will deviate from the average return(thus explaining the noobuberhofs of the lucky avas that hof very much or the unlcuky avas that never hof)

when playing long enough all avas will get to that 90%
 
Actually I think it is a good idea. There are a lot of junk unusable weps out there that no-one with high skills would consider using due to their low dps, but no-one with low skills can use efficiently.

I agree you need to adapt to the game, but I don't see anything wrong with suggesting improvements to the game too.

I agree as long as this is done with weapons similar to tt weapon's class.

Remember that market value exist because of need of L items. You flood game with unlimited items in all professions and sudennly all loot is just tt food (apart special items).
 
i say "law of big numbers "..if the system pays out on average 90%(not personal..on average..so the house(ma) takes 10%)
then if you hunt long enough(like in your case) the returns wil be close to that 90%

the less you play the more the % will deviate from the average return(thus explaining the noobuberhofs of the lucky avas that hof very much or the unlcuky avas that never hof)

when playing long enough all avas will get to that 90%
And that's all the system is. Unfortunately, it has been (and apparently even still is) all too common for people to misconstrue this as the system "compensating" losses. It's not compensation...it's simple long-term evening out numbers.

The system does not think, therefore it does not care about your losses. It's simply programmed to include volatility that levels off in the long run.
 
no way,and fuck all the guys that grinded hardcore to get to level 100 ?

I am sure I will not be able to convince you of the actual benefits of doing this (to the game at large and without hurting those people), so I will not try :) I stand by my point though, I think it would help the game. A lot.
 
I've been sayin this for years, it's simply not NECESSARY to track everything in a system to set up odds. OFC eco counts, why would mod mercs exist otherwise and why would MA have limited so much. Imp/Mod faps, i2870, i can go on and on. I don't need to rig a game of die to get a 1/6th odd. The universe we live in isn't trackin my every dice roll. Mu and cost to kill compared to another andhte system unfolds itself. OFC u get outliers, things that trigger odd phenomenon in the system, doesn't make it law nor necessarily repeatable. Having a database that tracks all and acts accordingly to even ur loots even with silly decisions is just not even fair, by any logic, why would it be.

*slightly off topic

I have the same sentiments as you in a way about eco counting, but the thought that lead me to this belief was tiering. It seems that cost to tier is a function of eco and not the destructive force of the weapon.

Take for instance mkVME, tier 3 is 1.1k peds while a DOA strikerhammer is 300 ped TT. The strikehammer will blow the mkVME out of the water minus the range and dpp but same goes for the Isis rifles, same dmg/sec as mkVME but cost of tiering is considerably lower. Many examples but these ones I know hence referencing them.

I am sure other factors play into the cost though.
 
I can't see how saying there is no individual lootpool makes suddenly EU a (total) gambling game. (?)
To compare with RL : there is no pre-defined destiny, everyone can succeed with knowledge, hard work, relations, good decisions. Luck is a very small portion of success in RL.

Belief in an individual lootpool inevitably leads to believing that the system owes you something and will pay back eventually (if only partially). Such a system really isn't a gambling in any way, because the main factor here is not luck but only hard work and patience.

And considering RL, that's your belief that there is no pre-defined destiny. Extending the situation with "individual loot" believers to RL: imagine you're a good Christian, all your life you keep the commandments and resist temptations, knowing that for all that you're guaranteed eternal life and then suddenly all your "good decisions" turns wrong when Odin himself tells you from the sky that since you didn't spend your life crushing skulls in his name - there is no place for you in Valhalla :).
 
By stupidity i mean they tend to see patterns when there is none. Have you seen movies like PI or similiar. It's all about what human mind can make of things.

... and has nothing to do with stupidity.

Collecting data, looking at the data, interpreting the data and developing a theory or model is for example what scientists do, and some of them are considered to be pretty bright guys and gals.

If you've seen some kind of "compensation" often enough while playing and know from experience that you end up somewhere around 90% most of the time, it's not far-fetched to assume there is something like a personal loot pool.
 
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i say "law of big numbers "..if the system pays out on average 90%(not personal..on average..so the house(ma) takes 10%)
then if you hunt long enough(like in your case) the returns wil be close to that 90%

the less you play the more the % will deviate from the average return(thus explaining the noobuberhofs of the lucky avas that hof very much or the unlcuky avas that never hof)

when playing long enough all avas will get to that 90%

Exactly. It also does not mean others could not end up at higher or lower TT return percentages, but a very simple static system that simply paid back 90% of cost on average for all activities and did not track anything at all is sufficient to explain all and any people who track returns and get 90% on average in long term.
 
Poor returns after a big win, and big wins after a craploot streak are explained by THIS . Personal lootpool is not required to generate these results.
 
LOOL that why after I hit a tower of 25k, i start loosing until i loose around 30k? i pretty sure it gambling loool!
Or when you loose during 1 or 2 month you hit a uber of the same value (-10%) of your loose?&
Now explain us how money each week are given? A monkey roll dice and decide of the return? lol
by the way MA you make my day
 
k makes sense..
I never believed in personal lootpools but I do believe in some personal "luck multiplier" variable, because Ive seen far to much differences in players returns who cannot be explained by personal differences in efficiency.
Differences to great to explain by "chance".
I'm curious if the devs explain that away
 
If MA thinks it does not exist it does not mean it does not exist but rather that MA thinks it does not exist.. :D

Now seriously, I am pretty sure there are sort of ripples or emergent effects in their system MA are not aware of.
 
. OFC eco counts, why would mod mercs exist otherwise and why would MA have limited so much.

That could be the case: however, I am not sure that is what the dev post is suggesting, as it said the efficiency on the weapon, not of it. From personal experience, I've owned an imk2 and ml35me (used at similar skills on both) althougth there was a 15% ish difference in dmg/pec, my tt return rate only differed by a couple of percent between the two.
 
Ofc it's part of what the dev is saying, i never said it was the end all panacea tho. There are many factors in "efficiency" or eco, that is just the most obvious one, blaring us all in the face for over a decade. Because there are many factors that can be affected it's not gambling, if one person can do the same thing as another at a lower cost, ofc that person (not counting extreme cases, out of the ordinary occasions) will make more ped in the longrun clear from his hunting or whatever expenses. He will lose less. A person who loses less by definition has more than the other for the same ped spent...
 
Now seriously, I am pretty sure there are sort of ripples or emergent effects in their system MA are not aware of.

Maybe it has actually become self-aware and developed its own identity, but is hiding that from MindArk so they won't sell it to some AI research firm because it enjoys playing God (Lootius) :silly2:
 
I played on the high eco path for years. Like others, I too had done experiments over the years and come to beleive in a personal loot pool theory.

However, straight from MA's mouth they say I am wrong. I have no choice but to believe them and try to go back to finding out what "high eco" means

I call bullshit on these dev notes. I hunted "eco" for so much it made my ass sore. And did I get what was expected? NO. Eco does not matter. My experience has never shown any advantage of either fun or profit for using eco setups, and it has always shown a personal loot pool.

But forget that, right? Personal experience, feelings, observations? No, let's look at tens of thousands of dollars worth of logs in mining and hunting that show a 90% return rate with corrective loots which match your loss when you go retard mode with 2.0 eco, Mann MPH hunting regen mobs or quadruple bombing for giggles. How much money should we spend to prove there is a personal expenses tracker and eco does not matter?

What I don't get, are two things:
- Why would MA release a public statement denying obvious system designs and various long-term tests made by players that show those system designs?
- Why does everyone agree blindly with these statements and call dedicated players that did the testing work as liars or religious?
 
WOW after 10 years MA actually decides their going to make a comment about certain beliefs regarding how avatar loot works ? wtf :scratch2: Ok lets see : Since the ist day i began hunting the first thing i noticed was all the times i missed.I thought WELL one day when im skilled i wont miss anymore so i plodded on.Now 10 years later not only am i still missing im missing more often:scratch2: I have over 10k in aim skills 9+k in pistol skills and your telling me skills mean something?
As for personnel loots pools i just have to say :Ive seen things:eyecrazy:
 
As for personnel loots pools i just have to say :Ive seen things:eyecrazy:

Tell the fckn story!!!!111 (C) Fear and Loathing in LA
 
Poor returns after a big win, and big wins after a craploot streak are explained by THIS . Personal lootpool is not required to generate these results.

I just wanted to say that I actually felt my brain hurt, as I attempted to digest that link of yours.
 
Too many people believe that "efficiency" is a way to get more from the lootpool while in fact it's basically the way to give less into it.

Svarog, do you read what you write? I say gtfo. You are all happy and giggity that "your theory has been confirmed" or whatever that means, and write bullshit all over this thread.

You put less instead of getting more. AMAZING! Either way, you should get more than the average player. Yet this is not happening. Be my guest and pick the best eco gun out there and the worst eco gun and do some hunting, see for yourself before blissfully show your limited knowledge on this matter.

Why are eco players still losing like everyone else? Why are uneco players getting more globals and hofs?

What is economy in terms of mining and crafting?

Why are there big loots more often given around when you are below expected returns?
 
summary of the dev note as I see it: Hit Ability (HA) counts. In other words, play with maxed sib items because you should miss less, i.e. get more returns... and loot personal loot pool does not matter, so hunt/loot/mine when others do so the most if possible to stand some sort of chance at gaining off of their losses.

That is all.

i.e. Know the casino and which slots are looser, and watch those playing the machines. When they load up the progressive slot machine's loot pool, step in when they move momentarily to go to the rest room or to get a beverage.
 
Ofc it's part of what the dev is saying, i never said it was the end all panacea tho. There are many factors in "efficiency" or eco, that is just the most obvious one, blaring us all in the face for over a decade. Because there are many factors that can be affected it's not gambling, if one person can do the same thing as another at a lower cost, ofc that person (not counting extreme cases, out of the ordinary occasions) will make more ped in the longrun clear from his hunting or whatever expenses. He will lose less. A person who loses less by definition has more than the other for the same ped spent...

I guess it's how you define eco: I thought you were referring to the dmg/pec of the gun. I still dont believe the dmg/pec of a tool will produce a better return rate percentage. The notes says the avatar efficiency on the tool, which I believe simply means their hit rate.
 
Anyone seen the mobs get stronger in the last week or so? Damn my fap is on overdrive, on the same mobs I faped once or twice. If I could stick my fap in some water, I'd here a hiss sound and see some steam for sure.

Maybe the whole point of this thread is for MA to find out what we are thinking, and adjust the system again so maybe we should shut-up.

sssushhhhh.
 
I believe these notes are largely misunderstood / misformulated.
MA never denied the ~90% tt return. Nor did they say dmg/pec mattered.
They said
  • avatar skills and efficiency on the tools used do indeed matter a great deal
  • I interpret this as "not maxed on your tools will cost you" and "higher skills are better"
  • it is wrong to assume that the “system” will eventually provide a sort of compensation to avatars who have been operating in an inefficient manner
  • the question is what is inefficient manner. knowing you get ~90% return with 0.5dmg/pec guns, I guess it means shooting in air, using unmaxed tools
  • There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars
  • This might just mean no predefined avatar luck
  • there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars
  • Why should they be tracking each avatars return over time if the tt return is 90%? And it depends on what is meant by compensation. If someone getting 90% tt return and still losing peds is expecting to get a compensation, it should be clear that won't happen

What I don't get, are two things:
- Why would MA release a public statement denying obvious system designs and various long-term tests made by players that show those system designs?
- Why does everyone agree blindly with these statements and call dedicated players that did the testing work as liars or religious?
 
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  • There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars
  • This might just mean no predefined avatar luck
  • there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars
  • Why should they be tracking each avatars return over time if the tt return is 90%? And it depends on what is meant by compensation. If someone getting 90% tt return and still losing peds is expecting to get a compensation, it should be clear that won't happen

You can't have 90% and the stuff above at the same time. If you change "economy" (whatever that means nowdays) and still get 90% return, there has to be some tracking of the 100% somewhere, say.... a personal "loot pool value"?

If we spend 10 peds or 20 peds for the same mob, and loot is 9 peds or 18 peds depending on which "economy" was used, how would the system know to give the 9 peds or the 18 peds loots if not by tracking our expenses individually? If there were no tracking, then a mob should have a normal loot distribution curve no matter how you hunt it. If there were no tracking, then MA would either rake in 40% losses from uneco players or give out over 100% tt return to very eco players. I don't see how you can get 90% returns without being tracked on the 100% expenses (across ANY item like faps and armor).
 
Damage per pec means something too. For example with some guns u can loot a mob spending 50 pec to a ped less and u get the same loot as the other hunter. Now u have to consider regen, armor decay, mu and other factors as well, it's not all cut and dry. For example with a much lower eco on a weapon, a person can still do well comparatively to another player who pay out the ass to hunt the same mob, even tho he has an eco of say 3.0. If his dps forces his armor decay up by a couple peds then the eco he gains in dmg/pec is completely meaningless. Many, many examples of this can be given with actual numbers, i just don't have the patience this exact second, but it's mathematically easy to show.

Why do people keep equating dmg/pec with bigger loots, i'll never understand. People fail to realize how many variables are in action at every lvl of this. Even goin so far as to completely misunderstand the 90% loot bk deal.
 
I think you missed the point that I interpret "no personal loot pool" as something entirely different than you do. No "individual tracking" is needed if the corporate tt return is static.
You can't have 90% and the stuff above at the same time. If you change "economy" (whatever that means nowdays) and still get 90% return, there has to be some tracking of the 100% somewhere, say.... a personal "loot pool value"?
 
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