Exploit in Gold Rush 2023 event cat 04

[Thorns Rose]

you know why Air traffic is so save? Most air lines got a "bug bounty" program where they get rewarded if they do mistakes, so those can be taught in training and thus prevented in future.

when you punish the messenger, everyone just stays silent

Sorry, I ran out of likes on PCF..


The messenger is a hero to me..............

 

[niteflite]

To summarise, the Ark team are aware of all the bugs resulting in potential exploits. They have decided to go ahead and warned that they will assess the results of the winners, and I suppose disqualify those who they deem used the exploit. Won't that leave them yet again able to pick and choose the winners, like in the previous GR? How will they be able to tell whether, say, 120k points is not ok while 110k is? The lack of a public, real-time leaderboard is a major issue with transparency.

I have no idea what role MA play in PP's events if any, who knows, but the only thing we can say is that Gold Rush previous event did undermine confidence in the system and this one, despite the change of management is possibly worse.

All very sad.

 

[addz]

Its going to be easy for them to check this too. Max bosses spawned in a 12 hour timeframe is 36 so if you see people with 40+ boss kills, hit em with the banhammer. Also you only really need to manually check the top 5 finishers of each category, shouldn't be too hard.

 

[tBANNA]

They do nothing, people complain, they do something, people complain, is there any win for them with this community?

Oh and BTW, their decision has positive impact on people not doing the "special tactic" giving us a chance for a placement. I don't see why people not using it should complain

i've seen this kind of "fix" when they rewarded one side on one hand and, to be "fair", they rewarded the other one aswell, both sides involved in the issue
this was used 2-3 GR ago ( if i recall right )

based on that logic then

if they will let it go as it is then why the fuck to bother to fight fair when is no penalties? why not trying to do whatever the fuck u want or can to win it, cause what bad thing could happen beside to get a prize for it?


..........................
for fuck sake!

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Its going to be easy for them to check this too. Max bosses spawned in a 12 hour timeframe is 36 so if you see people with 40+ boss kills, hit em with the banhammer. Also you only really need to manually check the top 5 finishers of each category, shouldn't be too hard.

Things are rarely that simple. Someone who is not exploiting could in theory get more than 40+ boss kills without cheating e.g. they go for repairs etc and spend a bit of time there and to complicate matters further someone rings their doorbell in real life they go to answer the door and things escalate they take too long to come back to computer for no fault of their own without any intention of cheating.

If someone in top five is disqualified after checking then they would need to check other people who now make it into top five. Again in theory this could go on and on indefinitely...

 

[tBANNA]

Things are rarely that simple.

someone rings their doorbell in real life they go to answer the door and things escalate they take too long to come back to computer for no fault of their own without any intention of cheating.

If someone in top five is disqualified after checking then they would need to check other people who now make it into top five. Again in theory this could go on and on indefinitely...

........................................
One time is a chance
Two times is coincidence
Thee times is an enemy action
..........................................................
first is a mistake
second is a coincidence
third is a pattern
................................

 

[PreyNaika]

Did want to go hard on it,
Did read that boss stuff
Did finish 1x 12 hours
Back to fleshrippers for skilling.

Next time pls make shure that everyone got a fair chance to win without the use of exploits/bugs

Or make it a token type event like fen Was, with with the adition : tokens for the cat

Example
Cat 1 cat 1 token
Cat 2 cat 2 token
Cat 3 cat 3 token
Cat 4 cat 4 token

All categorys shud have a rar token drop chance, the rar token shud be account bound and tied to the category the normal tokens not (tradeable)

Example: cat 1 drops normal tokens and cat 1 rar token but not cat 2 3 or 4 rar token

Put a vendor with the top price like 100.000 tokens + max two rar for (weapon)
100.000 tokens + max two rar for
(Armor)
100.000 tokens + max two rar for
(Plates)
100.000 tokens + max two rar for
(Pet)
Every category got theyr own high class price , tied to the rar token
Put skill gain pills and other pills
Limited items... give it a great Mix.

Put a waypoint to the map every 20 min to defend , even if mobs dont attack the waypoint( you have to be inside that location) . if timer runns out, the instance ends before the Boss who spawns after 25 minutes.

This actualy does fix every Problem.
Hit me up here or on discord if you need more help @mindark and any PP

 

[Svako]

i've seen this kind of "fix" when they rewarded one side on one hand and, to be "fair", they rewarded the other one aswell, both sides involved in the issue
this was used 2-3 GR ago ( if i recall right )

based on that logic then

if they will let it go as it is then why the fuck to bother to fight fair when is no penalties? why not trying to do whatever the fuck u want or can to win it, cause what bad thing could happen beside to get a prize for it?


..........................
for fuck sake!

That "fix" was after they handed the prizes wrongly and then rewarded true winners on top, my understanding of their statement is, they will do the opposite, identify true winners, then hand out the prizes... so no prize for exploiters

Now interesting question would be, whether they want to disqualify people, or runs

I might be wrong, we'll see when scoring will be out

 

[Killahbee]

That "fix" was after they handed the prizes wrongly and then rewarded true winners on top, my understanding of their statement is, they will do the opposite, identify true winners, then hand out the prizes... so no prize for exploiters

Just want to point out that this is wrong. It took them over a week to get the correct scores tho. Prices to the wrong (me included) winners and to the right winners were handed out the same day.

 

[Tony T-Man Coop]

This is laughable, an objective event just now became subjective and the winners deemed appropriate by what exact standards? I would be too scared to go into the time off zone for more than a couple of minutes knowing all of this because it would subjectively disqualify me. I have a newborn baby, dog, wife, a life to attend to outside of playing a game, to think you must be at the computer playing the entire time is just insane (oh wait, I forgot if you have a bot program running you can do that).

TLDR; don't participate because you will be pissed either way - side note - I haven't logged in to the game since doing mayhem a few instances and do not plan on participating in a subjective biased prize pool.

 

[Svako]

Just want to point out that this is wrong. It took them over a week to get the correct scores tho. Prices to the wrong (me included) winners and to the right winners were handed out the same day.

Then this is completelly different situation, my bad

 

[jetsina]

So, some ***** (5-star) dev added code to stop the timer when in the central area, but the boss counter doesn't stop?
Is the event management now telling us that we mustn't spend any time there because of that? Seriously?

I've not noticed this here, but I imagine when people enter, the timer is still stopped (first time or reentry). Whenever I enter new areas it can take a while for my EU framerate to be playable, sometimes a minute or so. Is management saying that this 5% 'improvement' to boss spawning is cheating? Where is the cut-off? No, I don't expect you've thought about it, whether it is relevant or not.

I've heard there's something called an ig-nobel prize for the poorer end of the human spectrum. Or is it the Darwin awards? EU is in some ways a paradise, but to see such poor governance is more than just saddening.

 

[atomicstorm]

........................................
One time is a chance
Two times is coincidence
Thee times is an enemy action
..........................................................
first is a mistake
second is a coincidence
third is a pattern
................................

What is 100 times? Because that's kinda where we are right now.

I judge Mindark fairly and the result is harsh because of my background. I would not have accepted any of this as a manager.

(Senior software manager with 25 years IT background)

 

[Hego Damask]

So, some ***** (5-star) dev added code to stop the timer when in the central area, but the boss counter doesn't stop?
Is the event management now telling us that we mustn't spend any time there because of that? Seriously?

The ammount of peoples dont understand the difference between:

Intentionally waiting 80 minutes at middle, kill the 4 boss only than return to middle for additionally 80 mins afking.
vs
Taking a 2 mins bathroom break than continue normal gameplay.


I dont say anybody trying to defend his exploiting friend at this way, but if i would want to defend my exploiting friend, i would act the same.

 

[atomicstorm]

The ammount of peoples dont understand the difference between:

Intentionally waiting 80 minutes at middle, kill the 4 boss only than return to middle for additionally 80 mins afking.
vs
Taking a 2 mins bathroom break than continue normal gameplay.


I dont say anybody trying to defend his exploiting friend at this way, but if i would want to defend my exploiting friend, i would act the same.

The design creates an unfair advantage that now has created a subjective line that no one knows where it lies. An extra boss kill is an extra advantage over someone who is doing it the way "they wanted it done". That extra boss kill can come from a variety of ways, just by 4 5-minute pee breaks (I drink a lot of water ya know....) in a six hour instance in a twelve hour span.

 

[Pi-]

.

 

[robber]

Can we have a event wo any issues!? NO! haha jokes

 

[jetsina]

If my slowly gleaned info is correct:
the instance has the 4 boss areas known from previous events, with a light going on at the top of it to mark the spawn.
What if you go to the middle after 18ish mins to take a bit of a breath before tackling each new boss? I can surely claim I'm waiting to see which light will go on and be closer to it. Is that a 10% timer advantage that is exploitative? It's so very arbitrary on top of what others have said here too.
Is it exploiting if the lights stay on once lit, I decide to leave the instance and return straight away to continue to benefit from the light signal?

Dunno if the above is in any way correct now. I just recall it from a previous GR.

The ability to think should be advantageous, not result in potential disqualification for using programmed features, even moreso for explicitely added ones.

edit: on the max bosses being 36, isn't it 34 due to 2x no time left after final boss spawn, UNLESS you spend enough time for 1 boss kill with the counter stopped on each 6-hour run? I don't want to be pedantic, but that is what understanding systems and rules is all about - or should be! So, where in their wisdom, is the cut-off against so-called exploits? It could be as little as somehow managing to get those 2 extra bosses, or what?

 

[Hego Damask]

What if you go to the middle after 18ish mins to take a bit of a breath before tackling each new boss? I can surely claim I'm waiting to see which light will go on and be closer to it

Anybody who played the instance for like 2 hours as it was intended to do, know the boss always spawn the same position at the beginning of the instance and the rotation where the 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 5th and so on spawns is always the same too, no one need to watch lights or anything else to know where the next boss spawns after 2 hours of gameplay.

Exploiters who afk 80 mins and botters exluded ofc.

 

[jetsina]

I know plenty of even intelligent 'anybodies' who don't manage to notice some recurring patterns (by themselves), myself included (at whatever level of intellect I may be classed at). We often find more complicated solutions when a simpler one would often work out fine too.
The TLDR should be: we have a wide range of features here. Using them (and in combination) should never be considered an exploit.

 

[Tony T-Man Coop]

The ammount of peoples dont understand the difference between:

Intentionally waiting 80 minutes at middle, kill the 4 boss only than return to middle for additionally 80 mins afking.
vs
Taking a 2 mins bathroom break than continue normal gameplay.


I dont say anybody trying to defend his exploiting friend at this way, but if i would want to defend my exploiting friend, i would act the same.

It isn't just a 2 minute bathroom break, it could be to feed a crying newborn who just woke up unexpectedly, or get caught up while just trying to do a 2 minute bathroom break, and now all of a sudden you've lost hours of time because someone subjectively says you cheated by being afk.

If this will be judged subjectively, draw the line in the sand and spell out exactly what is acceptable and what isn't. If I can't go afk for however long I want to, tell the community that no AFK is allowed at all.

Again, I reiterate I am not playing Entropia at this time, but do check forums to see what nonsense is happening (aka this).

I am also a director of software development for over 12 years now, and add more years being a developer (this kind of thing shouldn't happen if coded correctly and tested). Someone got it wrong, spell out the subjective rules now that you deem them necessary.

 

[Simpleton]

It isn't just a 2 minute bathroom break, it could be to feed a crying newborn who just woke up unexpectedly, or get caught up while just trying to do a 2 minute bathroom break, and now all of a sudden you've lost hours of time because someone subjectively says you cheated by being afk.

If this will be judged subjectively, draw the line in the sand and spell out exactly what is acceptable and what isn't. If I can't go afk for however long I want to, tell the community that no AFK is allowed at all.

Again, I reiterate I am not playing Entropia at this time, but do check forums to see what nonsense is happening (aka this).

I am also a director of software development for over 12 years now, and add more years being a developer (this kind of thing shouldn't happen if coded correctly and tested). Someone got it wrong, spell out the subjective rules now that you deem them necessary.

Subjective rules are unacceptable.

We are seeing total lack of accountability from MA and PP.

 

[Art Jennifer]

Let’s see who wins.

Think we all know

 

[jetsina]

I agree with the basic point Hego makes on what is clearly misusing a feature, whatever it was actually programmed in for.

being a developer (this kind of thing shouldn't happen if coded correctly and tested).

I also disagree with Tony, because coded correctly and tested may well have happened, but this is an environment where multiple threads combine. It is the joined up thinking that seems to be lacking, so whatever management devs decide on functions, they themselves need to test/think for even simple consequences of adding a stop timer (although I've known several programmers who have had to do thinking for the management when they know enough about the field they are in, even though it's not their actual job).

It seems to me a quick solution would be to end a timer either when it runs out or following a mission counter for 36 bosses (+ 1min to make sure loot is obtained) that then starts the next complete attempt with boss number and timer reset.
Can't say for sure, but if sitting at a table thinking of any changes to the system and what needs to be considered, I'm 90% sure even I would have foreseen this one!

However, we don't know where the line is, so are stuck with something unpalatable, as so often. No matter that I wasn't in hunting anyway for other reasons given about levels, but it's crazy that even bigger players have to put up with this sort of thing time and time again. Yes, time and time again.
Entropia could still become a massive hit, but we can't get past the 's' invariably added to that word instead...
I look forward to UE5 less and less.

edit: bit of correction and an added bit in brackets.

 

[TheOneOmega]

This philosophy of using points (or the objective function in any game) as a single-metric proxy for cheating is so unbelievably negligent that I might begin advocating for aborting planet partners' event creation permissions if it became their norm. I don't even think it's reasonable to infer that a policy violation has occurred from points alone, let alone establish whether the violation was performed intentionally and for the sake of gaining an unfair advantage.

If planet partners tried to impose some arbitrary cutoff score, then both non-cheaters and cheaters would try to score as high as possible without exceeding it. If the cutoff turned out to be any higher than the maximum possible legitimate score, then cheaters would still outperform non-cheaters. If the cutoff turned out to be any lower than the maximum possible legitimate score, then non-cheaters could shade their score to avoid misclassification, but there would still be no reason to predict that they would outperform cheaters. If they made the cutoff score private, then both problems would be even worse, the latter because non-cheaters could no longer reliably avoid misclassification, and both the former and the latter because non-cheaters are on average more risk adverse than cheaters. And all of this is in a world with only two types of players, cheaters and non-cheaters. When we add in elements like unintentional policy violations, players AFKing for real-world obligations, etc., the model quickly becomes useless.

 

[Simpleton]

Why wont MA and ARK come and say "this is the event you get, try to score as much as possible, good luck"? Instead they are constantly on the other spectrum of outright punishing the participants.

Well, here is a thought. The reason why in this case is because if the best approach to win is to stay afk most of the time then they (MA+Ark) will not receive as much income as they were expecting from this event. This right here is probably the #1 (and only?) reason why they will call any activity an exploit, is because it will reduce their income/profit.

 

[Tina Walther]

you know, when you need to go afk you can always leave the instance too. don't know why they had to implement that safezone when you could just leave the instance to repair/TT/afk

 

[Arm]

I don't see a rule forbiting staying AFK. What if you need to stay on the toilet a lot?

How dare you not play in the toilet?

 

[atomicstorm]

you know, when you need to go afk you can always leave the instance too. don't know why they had to implement that safezone when you could just leave the instance to repair/TT/afk

Yes, you are correct. It was an unnecessary mechanic. Unless of course, there was an incentive.... such as planet partners having to pay for each spun up instance or something of that nature. It's the only reasonable situation I can think of outside of just being negligent with the design.

 

[TheOneOmega]

Why wont MA and ARK come and say "this is the event you get, try to score as much as possible, good luck"? Instead they are constantly on the other spectrum of outright punishing the participants.

While this is the optimal approach, the only way I see to cut past the current discourse and properly argue for this conclusion involves traversing several incredibly deep rabbit holes. The potential entertainment value online games throw in the trash can as a result of antagonistic attitudes toward glitches is an online gaming problem, not just an Entropia problem (although it is probably much more important for Entropia to somehow find a solution). It is also not a standalone problem, either in Entropia or generally, but a special case of broader failures in modern game design trajectory. One does not need to take a pro-glitch stance to accept arguments for the right design principles for Entropia, but once those principles are established, recognizing the absurdity a broadly anti-glitch policy falls out almost effortlessly as a corollary. But to make the arguments for the right design principles for Entropia, one might have to answer several other incredibly difficult questions, like what game design principles are best suited to what game design goals, and what the nature of the Entropia concept actually is.

In place of writing a short book, I'll just vaguely gesture at the intuition that no one thinks Gen 1 Pokémon games would be better if Mew or Missingno. weren't in them. No one thinks SM64 would be better without backward long jumping or parallel universes or any of the other unintended content whose discovery and use have led to maybe hundreds of thousands of hours of Youtube content and kept the game fresh and its multiple communities thriving for over 25 years without a single ounce of top-down development.

When we move from offline to online gaming, and especially from online gaming to online RCE, something clearly does have to change. If Missingno. kills someone's cartridge, the harm is localized. If someone finds a glitch that automatically multiplies the PED on their PED Card, maybe the entire platform collapses. But surely policies more narrowly tailored than "all glitches/actions which lie outside developer intent are banned" could also solve the problem, just as surely as restaurants do not need to resort to policies of "sorry, the quarter pounder must come with exactly cheese and mustard and the big mac must come with exactly cheese, catchup, and pickles to be compliant with store owner's intent" just because they might have to restrict someone from asking for particle board as a topping.