Fine lines

[Peezle]

I sometimes wonder at the levels of anger we get on this forum, at the insane levels of anger of bitterness we can manage over a stupid game.

Actually, my wonder is of another kind; that we are a generally accepting and sensible bunch of people.

One only has to surf Youtube comments for 5 minutes to see this right?

We all have different opinions, sometimes varying by a nth degree, sometimes 99.9 nths.

But rarely do I see real bitterness. Yes, people can be unpleasant... so can I. But compared to the usernet horseshit in general?

Edit: not deliberate, just have a memory of a basin of water.

The real point is this: you can affect the people around you by banning them, by cheating them, by lying to them. Also, you can co-create a world where new people get to feel accepted onto a new way of playing games. Think of noobs corner at its best; nothing like some bullshit nub forum on bullshit games that rely on dominant alpha male assholes.

yes, you might be slightly afraid of being banned. I am not so worried about this.

I think perhaps ( and with a great deal of disclaimers ) this is a place to attract more people, not so much even about the game in the first instance, but as a secondary means of engaging people who are just. Angry? Frustrated?

I like EU because there are grown-ups here. Maybe others too?

 

[Farmer Smurf]

I like EU because there are grown-ups here. Maybe others too?

Most sensible thing I have read in awhile...

 

[Peezle]

The forum has potential.

It might, if they had enough spirit of self-reliance, make things happen.

That they are owned by MA is not significant.... history show us the Boston Tea Party for one example/

The point is, as ever, do people care about change or only about their loose change?

 

[Zenzile]

I like your optimism (?) Peezle. I feel there is a... fine line... between censorship and trying to make newbies feel welcome.

On one hand, this game is in such a poor condition, it would be almost censorship to attempt to attract newbies to the game. I feel the core to this problem is not just how we talk to the players, but the state of the game. Certainly the core of this is in our... anger? Our frustration?

We need to grow as a community, as a people, and work together to make this game reach its full potential. It's full potential is not a large playerbase, but more a highly dedicated medium sized playerbase in my oppinion. The game is a ways from this now, but we can do it.

As we grow as a community and improve this game, so will newbies take interest. We must stop waiting on Mindark to provide us with excuses. We must be assertive and improve this game no matter what people try to hold us back, intentionally or unintentionally.

Again, good luck Peezle.

 

[BaronNuss]

It always feels like MindArk created the most awesome game in history by accident, I´ll always love it no matter how pissed of it makes me sometimes and deep in our hearts we love the creators of EU, too



But I can also understand the anger side, cause it´s not just a game for lot´s of us, it´s basically a way of virtual life.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

What's the point of this post? Are you trying to correct the behavior of others?

Good luck.

We have rules regarding negativity, meant to protect the interests of the developers as well as promote positive community. Yet most of the posts on the forum are basically whining, accusations against MA, bets on when the company will go out of business, etc. Plenty of negativity.

Then we have users who although they avoid using taboo words or phrases (swearing), they are really quite abusive, snide, and derogatory in their remarks. This actually promotes a negative, holier than thou culture, where people earn stripes by attacking the linguistics of others. You've fallen prey to this many times.

That situation will never be moderated because ultimately it falls to the moderator to act as an interpreter, and in doing so they open themselves up to extended conversations with the abusers, where the abusive individual continues their game of one-upsmanship with the moderator. Moderation staff has no desire to participate, so they avoid the role of interpreter and stick to enforcement of rules by the letter, rather than by the intent. This actually exacerbates the problem.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

double post.

 

[Pyhä Antero]

Then we have users who although they avoid using taboo words or phrases (swearing), they are really quite abusive, snide, and derogatory in their remarks. This actually promotes a negative, holier than thou culture, where people earn stripes by attacking the linguistics of others. You've fallen prey to this many times.

That situation will never be moderated because ultimately it falls to the moderator to act as an interpreter, and in doing so they open themselves up to extended conversations with the abusers, where the abusive individual continues their game of one-upsmanship with the moderator. Moderation staff has no desire to participate, so they avoid the role of interpreter and stick to enforcement of rules by the letter, rather than by the intent. This actually exacerbates the problem.

Then we have those, who like to point fingers and see everything as conflict of interests between players and developers, and the most definitely these people don't miss McCormick humor at this forum. I'm not saying names, but you know who I mean.

 

[Peezle]

Then we have those, who like to point fingers and see everything as conflict of interests between players and developers, and the most definitely these people don't miss McCormick humor at this forum. I'm not saying names, but you know who I mean.

Don't sweat it. Magyar is a bulldog who likes to see the fails in everyone. Often he is correct imo.

Another one of those annoying people who has opinions.

I would rather this than someone who barrel rolls into oblivion without asking questions.

 

[Spawn]

The point is, as ever, do people care about change or only about their loose change?

People generally hate change. For whatever reason, change may be good, but it's not what we are used too, what we've always done, and how it's always been.
And this game is about loose change. Yes, we care. It's the only RCE out there.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Then we have those, who like to point fingers and see everything as conflict of interests between players and developers, and the most definitely these people don't miss McCormick humor at this forum. I'm not saying names, but you know who I mean.

As I said, a game of one-upsmanship. Thanks for illustrating my point.

 

[Farmer Smurf]

What's the point of this post? Are you trying to correct the behavior of others?

Good luck.

Then we have users who although they avoid using taboo words or phrases (swearing), they are really quite abusive, snide, and derogatory in their remarks. This actually promotes a negative, holier than thou culture, where people earn stripes by attacking the linguistics of others. You've fallen prey to this many times.

Indeed, I have fallen victim to this in a recent post exchange with users in this very thread..

 

[Spawn]

Indeed, I have fallen victim to this in a recent post exchange with users in this very thread..

I hope it wasn't me. I avoid swearwords like the fkn mofkn plague.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Indeed, I have fallen victim to this in a recent post exchange with users in this very thread..

He's implying that I'm abusing him.

What he doesnt want to admit is that its his whining which provoked me. His incessant whining, for over a year now. Like I said earlier, we get that people are unhappy. We even get that some of their points may have validity.

The near constant whining on this board though is disrespectful to everyone here. A year of whining is too much. Couple it with accusations of 'fanboi' bias, etc and you're basically begging for a fight.

I called him out on it. He got what he was asking for. It took a year for me to finally tell him where to cram it, because ultimately though I like the fellow and though I do agree with him on some very fundamental issues, I think non stop whining is wrong, and it does not just ruin one persons experience, it ruins the experience of all who hear it.

Enough said.

 

[Farmer Smurf]

He's implying that I'm abusing him.

What he doesnt want to admit is that its his whining which provoked me.

The near constant whining on this board though is disrespectful to everyone here. A year of whining is too much. Couple it with accusations of 'fanboi' bias, etc and you're basically begging for a fight.

I called him out on it. He got what he was asking for. It took a year for me to finally tell him where to cram it, because ultimately though I like the fellow and though I do agree with him on some very fundamental issues, I think non stop whining is wrong, and it does not just ruin one persons experience, it ruins the experience of all who hear it.

Enough said.

I don't whine, I chat. I can not help it that you find my positive posts negative or my negative posts positive. however I have as much right to chat as anyone else. I post as often on GTA boards as I do here as its the only other game I play. I still maintain if reading chat posts by others, ruins your experience. then your looking for an experience a forum for a video game, will not provide you.

And yes I was referring to that exchange. but in a positive way, as I was totally agreeing with you and the point you were making. however once again I can not control or even know how you will choose to hear what I say. Some people just look for the negative in everything.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

I don't whine, I chat.

I'm going to level with you. That is patronizing. At least cop to what you do. Don't try to twist it. When folks lie, or attempt to play word games it speaks very poorly of both their own character and what they think of the people they are communicating with (not just directly, but those who may read the statement as well). It demonstrates an expectation that the author expects the average reader to buy into their bullshit.

I have no problem coming forth and saying very clearly that the vague accusation you made was about me. It's called responsibility.

Take some for your own actions.

Cheers

 

[Farmer Smurf]

I'm going to level with you. That is patronizing. At least cop to what you do.

Cheers

your perceptions are false. I mean of course the post was refering to you, it was a reply to you..your perceptions about my overall happiness level and or the "quality" of my posts.

again I don't whine, I do sometimes have a complaint, there are other times I am really over joyed. ups and downs, that's what EU is to a lot of us. Perhaps I reply to your posts to often, my fault for finding them some of the most intriguing on the board, possibly only tied with peezle for capturing my interest.

But to infer that because you personally perceive my posts to come from a position of whine or whatever, that I some how destroy the forums. is just absurd....even if you were correct, whiners have a voice too.

Now as the famous whiner fez says on that 70's show..I say good day to you!

 

[Talania]

Isn't there a rule about personal disputes on this forum?

 

[Farmer Smurf]

yeah what was expected to receive an LOL, instead got a blah blah blah, leading to blah blah blah..anyway I am done. my fault.

But I belive it was on topic, a case in point of

I sometimes wonder at the levels of anger we get on this forum, at the insane levels of anger of bitterness we can manage over a stupid game.

 

[Neuromancer]

Another excellent thread hijacked.

 

[Peezle]

Another excellent thread hijacked.

I didn't see it. People always struggle with other's opinions.

Magyar thinks my OP to be a self-interested load of naïve crap.

I would argue there is a comment to be made there.

I would also argue for a broader look at the internet in 2014 as opposed to when we entered in 1999 or whatever.

It need not only be a place to argue, but to co-operate is the point.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Magyar thinks my OP to be a self-interested load of naïve crap.

No, I dont. I just dont think there's any way we can change it. It's a perfectly valid discussion point, which is why I replied initially the way I did.

I think those are legitimate problems with the forum, and contribute to your fine lines.

Ultimately it goes like this: The forum community will show more appreciation to posts that blatantly lie or promote self interest, as long as the topic is appealing to a few others. Its a popularity contest, like high school, except anonymous.

People pull the same shit. I guess I do too. I was known for fighting with the jocks and the snobs. I thought they were disingenuous, shallow people.

I guess we are who we are, regardless of where we are.

 

[Peezle]

Ultimately it goes like this: The forum community will show more appreciation to posts that blatantly lie or promote self interest, as long as the topic is appealing to a few others. Its a popularity contest, like high school, except anonymous.

People pull the same shit. I guess I do too. I was known for fighting with the jocks and the snobs. I thought they were disingenuous, shallow people.

Always, I accepted this in 2000 as I do now. People always prefer a buzz to a thought because one is easily taken in and used directly. But I always thought I was not alone in thinking the internet could become a place of co-op activity. Think the Arab spring.

Our Western internet activities need not be different from this spirit, but we only have to get over being jaded and paranoid ( Yes, this over-used term is applicable ) about other people.

I personally have spent too much time being aloof from other internet users, but their oft simple natures and honest activity has cooled my wrath.

I think after 16/17 yrs, the internet is potentiate for a new usage. I have seen it in Egypt and Syria, so now maybe Europe and North America? And why not here.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Always, I accepted this in 2000 as I do now. People always prefer a buzz to a thought because one is easily taken in and used directly. But I always thought I was not alone in thinking the internet could become a place of co-op activity. Think the Arab spring.

Our Western internet activities need not be different from this spirit, but we only have to get over being jaded and paranoid ( Yes, this over-used term is applicable ) about other people.

I personally have spent too much time being aloof from other internet users, but their oft simple natures and honest activity has cooled my wrath.

I think after 16/17 yrs, the internet is potentiate for a new usage. I have seen it in Egypt and Syria, so now maybe Europe and North America? And why not here.

Why not here? Because the internet is raw human psychology unleashed. Arab Spring talked about real issues with real consequence. The internet has no consequence.

So people will always fall back on their more base natures. Ultimately people are advantageous, self interested, and deceptive. They predate among their own kind socially, beating others down in order to make themselves look larger. The only thing that tames this tendency is the threat of physical harm or resource deprivation. On the internet this is virtually nonexistent. This is why the internet will never change. It will always be a window into raw human psychology.

You can observe a similar phenomenon in primate interaction. Ultimately, it seems, we are still no better than monkeys.

 

[Peezle]

Why not here? Because the internet is raw human psychology unleashed. Arab Spring talked about real issues with real consequence. The internet has no consequence.

So people will always fall back on their more base natures. Ultimately people are advantageous, self interested, and deceptive. They predate among their own kind socially, beating others down in order to make themselves look larger. The only thing that tames this tendency is the threat of physical harm or resource deprivation. On the internet this is virtually nonexistent. This is why the internet will never change. It will always be a window into raw human psychology.

You can observe a similar phenomenon in primate interaction. Ultimately, it seems, we are still no better than monkeys.

Base natures is your last straw as an argument before you leave the Maygar bunker.

I often agree with you and still do, but people will further their self-interest in social progress ( read EU ) and a tendency to physical harm ( read an enhanced ring )..

In EU terms you are regressive because I can think of a better way of doing things, a better way of focusing these natural tendencies and I don't argue about them. They are as real as life and death. The only argument is how profitably and sustainably and healthily we might and can channel them.

You seem to have drawn a base line, one I drew many years ago, but learnt to redraw based on ( yes you may argue ) a sense I am not as omnipient as I thought and many other ( not all: some ARE lost ) people who needed to be pulled into our sense of chaos.

I have a Doctorate in Biology so not a good place to go to argue... I understand our nature very well and it is a disgrace. However, there is always a way out with a frontal lobe.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

Base natures is your last straw as an argument before you leave the Maygar bunker.

I often agree with you and still do, but people will further their self-interest in social progress ( read EU ) and a tendency to physical harm ( read an enhanced ring )..

In EU terms you are regressive because I can think of a better way of doing things, a better way of focusing these natural tendencies and I don't argue about them. They are as real as life and death. The only argument is how profitably and sustainably and healthily we might and can channel them.

You seem to have drawn a base line, one I drew many years ago, but learnt to redraw based on ( yes you may argue ) a sense I am not as omnipient as I thought and many other ( not all: some ARE lost ) people who needed to be pulled into our sense of chaos.

I dont understand this post. I see alot of big words but without context the statements leave too much to infer.

Regressive, for instance, coupled with you and I in the same sentence. Dual subjects, and a lack of definition of the term.

Regarding thinking of a better way, I can think of a better way too. I just dont see it happening. When people cant even admit to basic faults, and hide behind playground recovery techniques like "I was only kidding" in order to continue to evade responsibility for their actions I really cant see moving forward as an option. In order to remedy a problem all those involved must first be willing to identify all aspects of the problem and accept responsibility for their share.

Until we get to that level, I believe two things.

1) That the rest is pure conjecture.
2) That those involved in perpetuating the problem should be actively engaged, so that they are forced to at least begin to hear how their actions are impacting others.

Ultimately I feel the problem is this: People are motivated by self interest only, thus the consistent whining about things related to personal finance. When challenged they will resort to deceptiveness in order to obfuscate their true intent.

 

[Peezle]

Until we get to that level, I believe two things.

1) That the rest is pure conjecture.
2) That those involved in perpetuating the problem should be actively engaged, so that they are forced to at least begin to hear how their actions are impacting others.

I assume the rest is filler then.

#1 is rejected out of hand since pure conjecture means absolutely anything.

#2 I can work with. Those involved in perpetuating the problem? So we have our hands full. That would be you or me talking to nubs? EU Central? The forum mods? Ubers?

Virtually anyone is included in that premise. And by the way, I agree, we should work on our own ideas. About what the game could and should look like ( with very little problem) as opposed to how it does look like.

I was not banned multiple times for no reason. I was not booted from top positions in good socs for no reasons.

I don't give a fuck for no reason.

You remind me of a drinking pal in the 80s who picked a fight because he could.

An you from Cali-fucking-fornia and all.

Try to imagine a better place only a leap of courage ( not faith or intelligence ) is away.

 

[Magyar_Republic]

You remind me of a drinking pal in the 80s who picked a fight because he could.

I dont pick a fight because I can. I pick a fight because I should, either because something has gone on far too long (see 1 year of whining), or because they are addressing me directly in which case I feel justified in a response. Somebody should be calling these people out. Mod staff, IMHO, is trying to remain as objectively neutral as possible. They are also probably instructed to avoid punishing users with high activity counts in EU. This renders the rules meaningless, which means that since they arent doing the confronting, other people need to.

When I hear people crying about the same thing, day in, day out, and I notice the same names on these threads issuing the same complaints I think back to my first days in this game, and on this forum.

I came here looking for help, and expertise. Instead what I saw were a bunch of people saying how bad the game was. It very quickly eroded my faith in the product, and were it not for a decent person in game who showed me around I probably would have been one of many people who decided EU was a giant scam. Because thats what the players were saying, these people who were supposed experts on the game.

I dont think I am the only person who saw things that way. Who looked to the community for help and was basically told I was better off getting lost. These people who claim to care about the game on one hand, but on the other discourage people from playing with their shit attitudes should be shunned. How many people who would be playing right now are not playing because these folks basically convinced them not to?

I cant issue bans, but I can tell people exactly what I think in very unmistakable language.

 

[Peezle]

I dont pick a fight because I can. I pick a fight because I should, either because something has gone on far too long (see 1 year of whining), or because they are addressing me directly in which case I feel justified in a response. Somebody should be calling these people out. Mod staff, IMHO, is trying to remain as objectively neutral as possible. They are also probably instructed to avoid punishing users with high activity counts in EU. This renders the rules meaningless, which means that since they arent doing the confronting, other people need to.

I cant issue bans, but I can tell people exactly what I think in very unmistakable language.

Not really interested anymore In what you think is right or wrong, immoral or just, or pleasing to your sensibility.

Done all that crap after 17 yrs on the internet. My real interest is in change for the better, for the good:for you, your soc, for me, for everyone.

When your language gets opposed to the talk of freedom, to the language of change... for the sake of some illusion you are free... then you are opposed to freedom.

We cannot afford to imagine ourselves perfect.

Try to imagine yourself 15 yrs younger and what you thought then.

Try to imagine 15 yrs hence and what you might think then.

I have tried to only think the best of potentially good people, and ignored the rest. I see them as well as you.

 

[sostoned]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

very interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder