Question: Loot waves, are they good or bad?

Gopher

Guardian
Joined
Nov 20, 2021
Posts
240
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Gopher Goofer Bless
Just gonna ask this since I have been thinking about this for a while, and want to get others opinions. Do you think loot waves are good or bad for the game? Would the game be better off with a set or average % to loot stuff, or is it fine with the 0-very low chance of looting something off-wave but higher % on-wave? IMO, I think loot waves aren't good, and they don't feel good as well. Different items should be able to be looted at any time without having to wait for a wave. This especially hurts the players that don't have a lot of time to play this game, waiting/farming for waves to get items that instead should be able to be looted at any time. I think it would feel better if wave stuff was able to be looted randomly since it would be unpredictable and provide a chance for all people to get the items, no matter how much time they can play. No, not having waves wouldn't affect MU that much if MA balances loot fine. I know the people that farm waves will have a bias, but try to think for all players, and the game itself. Please try not to start a war in the comments, for all of our sakes.
 
Last edited:

Katie Chalmers

Prowler
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Posts
1,393
Location
Australia
Avatar Name
Katie Chalmers
Kinda depends on the timeframe of the wave. If its on a daily cycle then that is extremely bad as it gives a huge prejudice against players in non compatible time zones. Something like 30m-1hr cycle is ok although I still would rather zero waves at all. Then people can't game the system. its fair for everybody.
 

Deemer

Prowler
Joined
Apr 18, 2018
Posts
1,019
Some time ago, I asked for telescopes to track astronomy in the game, but I don't think they would add new astronomy skills, or telescopes to better navigate the phrase that "Entropia has always rewarded personal skills and knowledge."

If this is a game with sinusoids... waves... and all kinds of curves and straight lines, they must provide a tool in the game, through which even a player who does not have Program skills with which to extract information from the "chat.log", to have the opportunity for equality.

I will soon make 1000 ignored players, which I call earth pirates... there are space pirates, so I call them earth pirates... they jump from one hunting ground to another, and their hunting is limited to 10-20 mobs, but only where there are "green dots on their radar"... and their goal is "Lucky loot"... nonsense... their only goal is the pool of the one trying to play... and that's 99% of the players here. Therefore complete removal of these waves will be better.
 

SoberPhil

Dominant
Joined
Dec 20, 2019
Posts
461
Location
Long ago and far away
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Philippus SoberPhil Maximus
That's a good question. I'd say that the wave system is smart, entertaining and fair IF it weren't for BOTTERS, to whom the current system provides a clear advantage over those who aren't disabled and are able to use a mouse and keyboard with their hands. both hands, and are willing to actually play the game like any other game.

Sadly, there's no solution to this, they can change the wave system somehow yet botters will still have a massive advantage at least in hunting, and they cannot make it completely random for several reasons. I would just like to add that botters are treated as cheaters and banned in any respectable game even in indie MMOs, maybe MA will step up one day, maybe after UE5. One can hope.
 

mastermesh

Mutated
Joined
Apr 21, 2007
Posts
16,249
Location
FOMA SHOP # 22
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Maria Mesh
They aren't gonna stop botters because they don't care...
I can watch an avatar running around clearly F spam auto hunting. Is it a macro? Is it a third party software? Is it a person watching a movie and not looking at the screen? Do they have a complex series of pulleys tapping his keyboard? I do not know, and thus, will likely do nothing

As for waves, it's not good or bad. It just is the way the system works at the moment. It may change eventually or not. Yes, it's annoying that some do exploit by timing waves, botting, etc. but Mindark doesn't care so why should we. Enjoy it or don't. There are much better games out there.
 

Art Jennifer

Elite
Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Posts
2,537
Location
England
Avatar Name
Lady Jennifer Art
Kinda depends on the timeframe of the wave. If its on a daily cycle then that is extremely bad as it gives a huge prejudice against players in non compatible time zones. Something like 30m-1hr cycle is ok although I still would rather zero waves at all. Then people can't game the system. its fair for everybody.

I agree with this.

I play such random times. E.g. one day I could play 4hours straight. Another I would do 30mins here, 1 hour later, 30 mins and then I often don't play at all for 3-4 days in a row.

I've never noticed a negative return because of this play style. Average TT return of 95%+ so.... Some how the system must work it out....

"Tin Foil Hat" *Cough* Personal lootpools *Cough* "Remove Hat"
 

Vadio

Alpha
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Posts
568
Location
Space
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Jhan Delarea Freitas
I know .. waves need exist because mindark is lazy to fixing this game core

Yes we talk about economy... and link between hunt - mining - craft

I hate waves... its control you gameplay time... its damm boring gameplay with 5min of good loot and another 55min with low mu / no loot (Just remind sometimes waves extend up 20min duration and Cooldown can be 2h or 3h in worst days)
if you realy want min/max any kind profit you need sit down 55min and only play in this 5min

Maybe mindark not realize that genereta massive cut off in decay and per said lost of revenue
i shock if mindark not yet did internal graph/plot about this correlation

I still believe in Skill Game mix between Real Skills , and Numbers Skills(aka in game) and bit RNG
Like D&D(can cite others but its going out this topic) With actual Wave System , whole skills turned to oblivion... dont matter how skilled you are you going get shit if you go wrong timing... you wonder why? invest? time . money to acquire not only skills itself but gear? if you not play exact timing

and Finaly....
Util mindark have balls enough to fix Economy of game ,. waves going still exist , going still painfull and not fair solution
and not much else us can do , embrace , or leave , or play(if you not care profit or good items)

https://startraders.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_Tests & https://startraders.fandom.com/wiki/Dice_Mechanics
 
Last edited:

TheOneOmega

Elite
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Posts
2,834
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Marie TheOne Omega
There are a few posts in a similar vein here that I could quote, but I think this one is concise and representative of the others.
Kinda depends on the timeframe of the wave. If its on a daily cycle then that is extremely bad as it gives a huge prejudice against players in non compatible time zones. Something like 30m-1hr cycle is ok although I still would rather zero waves at all. Then people can't game the system. its fair for everybody.
I think we should strongly reconsider the thought that it's unfair for people to be able to game the system, because, well, the system just is a game! Okay, perhaps there's a subtle connotation shift between those two uses of the term "game," but the deeper point is that strategic elements, when implemented well, are the backbone of sound game design. I think this post is spot on to identify daily cycles as an example of poor implementation; granting an arbitrary advantage based on a player's time zone is undesirable. However, granting an advantage based on a player's ability to learn and strategize around a game's elements is a major game design goal, and results in a much richer entertainment product for everyone in the long run. Such an advantage is fair in the sense that everyone has the capacity to learn and participate in that strategic process.

With that said, I'm not married to loot waves. They're just one possible implementation of such a strategic element, and maybe not even a very interesting one. My main ask here is not that we necessarily have to love loot waves, but that if we don't, we at least consider modifications or replacements for the mechanic that would result in an overall strategically richer loot mechanic, rather than getting distracted by the false dichotomy of "Loot Waves VS Nothing" and flattening the system into an agency-irrelevant RNG-fest. Any casino can provide the agency-irrelevant RNG-fest experience for folks who prefer it, or whose notion of fairness is so restrictive that 90+% of games fail to meet the threshold. As for EU, I say we strive to keep some game in our game! (Yes, it's another equivocation on "game")
 

Katie Chalmers

Prowler
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Posts
1,393
Location
Australia
Avatar Name
Katie Chalmers
There are a few posts in a similar vein here that I could quote, but I think this one is concise and representative of the others.

I think we should strongly reconsider the thought that it's unfair for people to be able to game the system, because, well, the system just is a game! Okay, perhaps there's a subtle connotation shift between those two uses of the term "game," but the deeper point is that strategic elements, when implemented well, are the backbone of sound game design. I think this post is spot on to identify daily cycles as an example of poor implementation; granting an arbitrary advantage based on a player's time zone is undesirable. However, granting an advantage based on a player's ability to learn and strategize around a game's elements is a major game design goal, and results in a much richer entertainment product for everyone in the long run. Such an advantage is fair in the sense that everyone has the capacity to learn and participate in that strategic process.

With that said, I'm not married to loot waves. They're just one possible implementation of such a strategic element, and maybe not even a very interesting one. My main ask here is not that we necessarily have to love loot waves, but that if we don't, we at least consider modifications or replacements for the mechanic that would result in an overall strategically richer loot mechanic, rather than getting distracted by the false dichotomy of "Loot Waves VS Nothing" and flattening the system into an agency-irrelevant RNG-fest. Any casino can provide the agency-irrelevant RNG-fest experience for folks who prefer it, or whose notion of fairness is so restrictive that 90+% of games fail to meet the threshold. As for EU, I say we strive to keep some game in our game! (Yes, it's another equivocation on "game")
Thank you for picking my post for your argument, I feel special :D.

You bring up a good point, but maybe our definition of "gaming the system" is a little different. To me, the whole loot wave thing works off of an unintentional exploitation of the loot cycle, its not an official game strategy backed by in-game mechanics. If the rare loots were awarded under some skill or score based system (systems that we don't have), then it would be different and I would have no problem.
 

Waffelking

Provider
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Posts
119
Society
Raumschiff Titanic
Avatar Name
Jannine Esoterika XIII
I think they good ... havent done the math but they feel kinde of not so costly
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
Wave always will exist and do in all games.
When you play EU it does
When you play Diablo X, you will end at a time and say "WTH! Everything dropping"
When you play Path Of Exile you will say at time "Omg! Whats with this map! It's dropping it all"
Loot wave is just the way we explain something that will happen, has to happen and cannot be otherwise or else it would not be random.
 

Gopher

Guardian
Joined
Nov 20, 2021
Posts
240
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Gopher Goofer Bless
Wave always will exist and do in all games.
When you play EU it does
When you play Diablo X, you will end at a time and say "WTH! Everything dropping"
When you play Path Of Exile you will say at time "Omg! Whats with this map! It's dropping it all"
Loot wave is just the way we explain something that will happen, has to happen and cannot be otherwise or else it would not be random.
They dont exist in all games, rng is rng, in entropia, its very obvious theres waves since it happens so much it can't be a coincidence. I know a mob that only drops something on hof waves, it DOES NOT drop off wave, so its not rng in the way you think it is
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
RNG by design create wave. Its a statistical fact of RNG.

As for "mob with no wave" just because they drop often something or have dry loot but end in waves anyway because you either get sometime double the MU items or that its so dry it only happen in hof/global which can be in waves is still a wave, If there was no wave, it wouldnt be RNG and it would be predictable.

Even a coin toss or dice rolls have waves
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
I dunno... It depend what you compare it to but I had similar experience with :
Diablo 2 high rune, hard to find uniques
Path Of Exile high value drop especially currency
Most MMO have as well once you exclude the "progression drops" which are just a thing that would wreck the EU economy as if those existed the market wouldnt.
Just look at the big value items in most MMO. Guy grind 2 months, gain 30 pounds irl ordering pizza with extra topping so he can microwave it to farm more often, shower only when it get *juicy in his underwear*(Funny quote from a Streamer called Zizarian) and end with a triple bypass to get 1 legendary item. Yet, in most cases the player usually find that legendary in a wave of loot that was much better than the others without being a RCE.

But one thing is for sure... EU would never work as a tight RNG or as casino call em "Tight slot". Who want to play that anyway ? Tight slot are way more guaranteed to make 1 winner with so many losers. Loose slots will create big losers and several winners and thats what everyone want. More chance to win.

If you ever played Path of Exile you probably seen how you can find 0 exalts for 3 days and find 4-8 within a few maps.. Same map you did for 2 weeks but it was today.

Same thing can be said for other games. It only give a different perception because only idiots like me spent over 20 years looking at many non RCE RNG and most people playing EU only did it in EU for 1-15 years on a singular game.

I remember
Asheron call 1: OH!!!! That uber chest was good! Lets do the dungeon a few times see if it's a wave.
Dark Age of Camelot: Oh! That dungeon paying tonight! We need to keep doing it!
Ultima Online: Jesus! The champion dropping mad tonight! Let's protect the spawn and keep farming it!
Diablo 2: WoW! Pindle on a roll tonight! people on friend list start to reply "You too ???"

The opposite is also 100% true where we do those and we are all disappointed for hours.
 

Gopher

Guardian
Joined
Nov 20, 2021
Posts
240
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Gopher Goofer Bless
I dunno... It depend what you compare it to but I had similar experience with :
Diablo 2 high rune, hard to find uniques
Path Of Exile high value drop especially currency
Most MMO have as well once you exclude the "progression drops" which are just a thing that would wreck the EU economy as if those existed the market wouldnt.
Just look at the big value items in most MMO. Guy grind 2 months, gain 30 pounds irl ordering pizza with extra topping so he can microwave it to farm more often, shower only when it get *juicy in his underwear*(Funny quote from a Streamer called Zizarian) and end with a triple bypass to get 1 legendary item. Yet, in most cases the player usually find that legendary in a wave of loot that was much better than the others without being a RCE.

But one thing is for sure... EU would never work as a tight RNG or as casino call em "Tight slot". Who want to play that anyway ? Tight slot are way more guaranteed to make 1 winner with so many losers. Loose slots will create big losers and several winners and thats what everyone want. More chance to win.

If you ever played Path of Exile you probably seen how you can find 0 exalts for 3 days and find 4-8 within a few maps.. Same map you did for 2 weeks but it was today.

Same thing can be said for other games. It only give a different perception because only idiots like me spent over 20 years looking at many non RCE RNG and most people playing EU only did it in EU for 1-15 years on a singular game.

I remember
Asheron call 1: OH!!!! That uber chest was good! Lets do the dungeon a few times see if it's a wave.
Dark Age of Camelot: Oh! That dungeon paying tonight! We need to keep doing it!
Ultima Online: Jesus! The champion dropping mad tonight! Let's protect the spawn and keep farming it!
Diablo 2: WoW! Pindle on a roll tonight! people on friend list start to reply "You too ???"

The opposite is also 100% true where we do those and we are all disappointed for hours.
EU waves are pretty much once an hour, those examples are 1 off's and have a way bigger chance to just be coincidence. They changed mining on caly in december and it removed waves in areas, so there is a decent chance of a wave system being in the game
 

halftoasted

Provider
Joined
May 17, 2014
Posts
199
Avatar Name
Frank Halftoasted Redhot
That's what Im saying. You take tiny samples and create expected fact based on a small statistical anomalies in RNG to stabilize into something that aint RNG at all if you can explain it.

A few players tried to cover this aspect, especially ubers in many thread and the best part I think we can take from all of them is that they will all say it may not happen because there no predicated waves or hour or days. We seen thread like "Risk of Ruin - Bankroll Management" from atomicstorm that clearly show that there is no way to stabilize on purpose and it's always a unpredictable risk or other thread like one I cant find or remember who but had a fen mace where he lost his shirt thinking it would eventually pay and after losing thousands and thousands of peds it never showed even if hunting the same mayhem kerbs.


As a quick example. A season of Path of Exile duration is 4 months. Often in that 4 months there a or a few unique that just doesnt want to drop regardless of them no having tweaked the drop for that specific item. It become so rare that it has 10 times the value. 1 month, 2 months, 6 months. Its just a anecdotal observation where human beings try to rationalize the irrational. Doesnt mean you are stupid or anything. It's a human behavior where people try to fill the blank with rationalized intent on something that is all but.

If I say part of sentence and you need to figure what word is *blank*

If I say:
I have a big *blank*.
My *blank* is going banana!
*Blank* is how I like it!
Each *blank*, I eat *blank* with my coffee and put *blank* and *blank* in it.

*blank* will be a different word for many that read it and yet it doesnt even mean someone will be right. It's the hardest thing to get past when you get involved in RNG.

ROCKtropian saying does apply here: The only thing that make sense here is that nothing make sense.
Proof ? NeverDie never been so dead... <-- Ok, little side joke and poke at him..

Just notice as you probably and most others will read the sentence and fill the blank as you/they read it. Is it a statistical observation or just a human thinking fluke that is in us by design for us to seek the truth and evolve ? I think it's what brought us where we are so there is no shame in this behavior. It's just hard to toss it aside and is the reason this computer age control us so much because they create a world by giving us *blank* and making us fill it with the direction they want us to go. But that is another topic on social engineering.






















I have a big *brain*.
My *brain* is going banana!
*Steaming* is how I like it!
Each *night*, I eat *cookies* with my coffee and put *condensed milk* and *egg yolk* in it.
 
Last edited:

DaisyColdFinger

Stalker
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Posts
1,898
Location
UK / SPAIN / RSA
Society
In Game Daisy Terminated.
Avatar Name
Bam Bam SuperFly
As i understand it MA implemented a new loot distribution scheme, removing timed lootwaves back in 2017 with patch 15.150
 

infamousH4

Alpha
Joined
Jul 28, 2012
Posts
698
Location
nunYAbuznezz
Avatar Name
h4mmer 4nd s1ckle
I hate the loot wave system, it's probably the worst thing about this game,. Very bad design if they want keep new players or old player from quitting. I hope Mindark has some new ideas, the wave system screws over the new ppl the most because they are clueless and lose their deposits and swear off the game for good. Loot waves ruined mining for me and actually ruined the entire feel of the game. i used to think mining was fun and relaxing, all i get now is frustration from not being able to find particular mineral when i set out to look for it because its a wave mineral. took 10 years of losing before someone finally explained how loot waves work. 10 years of depositing and losing and then i find out 90% of ppl are wave based players. its a hush hush subject, the less ppl know of waves the more others can exploit it, a lot like the macros hunters. the 2 big things that need a change.
 
Top