Low eff hunting experiment

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
I'm running an experiment that helps me answer 3 questions:
1. Is it possible to survive in regular hunting with low eff setup (=low budget setup) but deep knowledge of the game mechanics and good looter skills?
2. Is it possible to achieve good tt return (98%-99%) using low eff setup (55%-60%) but mid looter level (L55+)?
3. Do we really need to cycle 1M+ peds to achieve stable TT return?

I will try to keep the loot volatility as low as possible to get more stable results:
- i'll stuck on one mob and one maturity
- i'll try to reduce my unefficiency and keep my armor decay, healing cost and overkill damage below 5% (= long range weapon, 10-12 shots to kill, resto chip or lifesteal buf)
- low regen mob
- 500+ kills per hunting session
- non-shared regular mob
- non-taxed area
- maxed gear
- i'll concentrate on hunting only and stop any other activities

Runs 1-8: [Combustive Attack Nanochip 7] + [Mayhem MF-Amplifier Gamma (L)] + 1% crit + 13% reload ( 59.5% eff / 3.13 dpp / 57.5 dps )
Runs 9+ : [Combustive Attack Nanochip 7] + [Mayhem Kinetic Amplifier 2] + 1% crit + 13% reload ( 61.8% eff / 3.0 dpp / 61.3 dps )

My looter L54,8 at the beginning of the experiment.
I expect very stable 98%+ tt return after 5-7 runs, but we will see...
 
Last edited:

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
TT in
TT out
TT +/-
%
acc. TT in
acc. TT out
acc. +/-
acc. %
HOF
1​
3 953,98​
4 468,88​
514,90​
113,02%​
3 953,98​
4 468,88​
514,90​
113,02%​
0​
2​
2 905,96​
2 690,23​
-215,73​
92,58%​
6 859,94​
7 159,11​
299,17​
104,36%​
0​
3​
3 515,35​
3 176,74​
-338,61​
90,37%​
10 375,29​
10 335,85​
-39,44​
99,62%​
0​
4​
3 420,79​
3 216,68​
-204,11​
94,03%​
13 796,08​
13 552,53​
-243,55​
98,23%​
0​
5​
3 581,63​
2 986,95​
-594,68​
83,40%​
17 377,71​
16 539,48​
-838,23​
95,18%​
0​
6​
3 536,08​
3 283,70​
-252,38​
92,86%​
20 913,79​
19 823,18​
-1 090,61​
94,79%​
0​
7​
3 408,60​
3 201,38​
-207,22​
93,92%​
24 322,39​
23 024,56​
-1 297,83​
94,66%​
0​
8​
3 050,61​
2 898,18​
-152,43​
95,00%​
27 373,00​
25 922,74​
-1 450,26​
94,70%​
0​
9​
4 106,55​
3 696,11​
-410,44​
90,01%​
31 479,55​
29 618,85​
-1 860,70​
94,09%​
0​
10​
3 374,15​
2 922,79​
-451,36​
86,62%​
34 853,70​
32 541,64​
-2 312,06​
93,37%​
0​
11​
3 066,39​
2 947,95​
-118,44​
96,14%​
37 920,09​
35 489,59​
-2 430,50​
93,59%​
0​
12​
4 330,42​
6 593,54​
2 263,12​
152,26%​
42 250,51​
42 083,13​
-167,38​
99,60%​
2 602​
13​
4 252,52​
3 953,25​
-299,27​
92,96%​
46 503,03​
46 036,38​
-466,65​
99,00%​
0​
 
Last edited:

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
Day 5 of the experiment: 17,3k cycled in total on 1k+ HP mob, L55 looter. I'm getting really bad return today prob. bec. these EP 113k ATH has some side effect on all of the universe. I expect x150 - x200 equalizer in the next 2-3 runs, but we will see...
 

buckaroobanzai

Stalker
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Posts
2,093
Location
Spain/France/Italy
Society
Shaolin
Avatar Name
Buckaroo Buck Banzai
I see you overall have 95% return, therefore it seems to me that you already had your “equaliser”: it equalised down the 113% of your first run 🙂

Take care,
BBB
 

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
Yep, i heard this many times "dude, you can not get more than 95% TT back with low eff setup" ( from the 'ped printer' sellers mosty LOL ). I strongly believe EU is a skill-based game ( as it stated by MA ) and the skillz and the knowledge of the game mechanics are just another way to get good results. That is why i set this experiment for.

Thanks for your opinion anyway.
 

Vadio

Alpha
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Posts
570
Location
Space
Society
Freelancer
Avatar Name
Jhan Delarea Freitas
Look foward for this
 

minim

Elite
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Posts
3,596
Location
Bergen, Norway
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Mini MiniM Mine
Is this manually calced or with loot trackers?
 

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
I dont use any 3rd-party software. I just add all the decay and ammo used vs loot TT into my spreadsheets at the end of the day. It takes 20-30 secs.
 

minim

Elite
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Posts
3,596
Location
Bergen, Norway
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Mini MiniM Mine
I dont use any 3rd-party software. I just add all the decay and ammo used vs loot TT into my spreadsheets at the end of the day. It takes 20-30 secs.
Just asking because I always get better results with those softwares VS the old school spreadsheet method :) Many trust them and “profit”. Ignorance is bliss I guess :p

good luck on the project. Subscribing :)
 

Hego Damask

Prowler
Joined
Jun 26, 2019
Posts
1,311
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Hego Damask II
A sum row would be awesome to see the actual standings.

GL and have fun with the experiment.
 

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
4,598
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
I expect very stable 98%+ tt return after 5-7 runs, but we will see...
Dude, if you get a stable 98%+ TT return with mentioned gear, the sky will be falling for all the money printer weapon owners.
And although I would love to see that, I won't believe it will happen.

But lets get some :popcorn: and see where this goes
 

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
Dude, if you get a stable 98%+ TT return with mentioned gear, the sky will be falling for all the money printer weapon owners.
Well... I don't think so... High eff weapon is absolutely needed for getting high looter skillz and for the event and shared mobs. IMO you just can set some hunting constaints at some level of the looter skill and get good results using mid/low eff gear. High eff gear allows you to relax these hunting constaints.
 
Last edited:

wizz

Elite
Joined
May 29, 2005
Posts
4,598
Location
Brabant
Society
The Ministry
Avatar Name
Wizzina Wizz Pale Moon
Well... I don't think so... High eff weapon is absolutely needed for getting high looter skillz and for the event and shared mobs. IMO you just can set some hunting constaints at some level of the looter skill and get good results using mid/low eff gear. High eff gear allows you to relax these hunting constaints.
This totally goes against all that is written here on PCF.

But, I would gladly be surprised by you, so I will be following this closely ;)
 

miathan

Dominant
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Posts
466
Location
Sweden
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Alindrina Alli Golden
It's actually quite easy to observe the effect of efficiency. First you can read the official statements, secondly you can observe how MA "values" efficiency based on tiering cost of weapons and cost in token trader.
Another way is to actually run the test but this has to be done very carefully, just calculating the TT in/out after a each hunt requires huge amount of data due to the nature of the loot system (100x multis and 1000x multis). I don't think even 10000 loot instances will bring down the variance below 1%, probably more like 2-3%.
One way to do this though is to observe TT in/out of *every* mob you loot. If you do this you can filter out, let's say, only multis below 1x and observe the difference in returns between different setups. With this method it's possible to see a clear effect of efficiency with as few as 1000 data points. And the effect correlates well with the official statements about efficiency.
 

Jhereg

Stalker
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Posts
2,129
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Feng Huan SecretAznMan Zho
It's actually quite easy to observe the effect of efficiency. First you can read the official statements, secondly you can observe how MA "values" efficiency based on tiering cost of weapons and cost in token trader.
Another way is to actually run the test but this has to be done very carefully, just calculating the TT in/out after a each hunt requires huge amount of data due to the nature of the loot system (100x multis and 1000x multis). I don't think even 10000 loot instances will bring down the variance below 1%, probably more like 2-3%.
One way to do this though is to observe TT in/out of *every* mob you loot. If you do this you can filter out, let's say, only multis below 1x and observe the difference in returns between different setups. With this method it's possible to see a clear effect of efficiency with as few as 1000 data points. And the effect correlates well with the official statements about efficiency.
^ This
 

Ivo Jahrumble

Guardian
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Posts
282
Location
Porto, Portugal
Society
The Great Pretenders
Avatar Name
Ivo Jahrumble Rocha
I expect very stable 98%+ tt return after 5-7 runs, but we will see...
I put my bet on 96.5% - All In!!

95% base + 0.75% looter skills + 0.75% 55% eff.

From what I understand looter skills and eff. both maxed give 3%+ long term result.

Having 0% on looter and eff. will return base, that is always 95% or 90% for some weapons/items/bps.

On a simplistic aproach ofc
 

Nutbar

Old
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Posts
79
Location
UK
Society
Kaos
Avatar Name
Archibald Nutbar Lucruze
I can tell you with absolute certainty that it is possible to achieve greater than 95% TT return with lower efficiency, but if you you think you will even out at 98% after 5 or 6 runs or even 1000 runs I would urge you to manage your expectations.

I’ve been running 62% efficiency for the last year and have only just hit 50 animal looter and I have log tracking 930k cycled thus far with well over 150k looted instances that paints a very different picture to the one you are trying to illustrate.

At my lowest point I was at 96% and my highest well over 98%, but on a month by month basis it fluctuates quite dramatically, my best month was 109% and my worst was 92%, right now it’s around 97.6%… but I’ve been bleeding PEDS since my last big hit which is hardly surprising.

The point is there’s a lot of volatility on a month by month basis, I can tell you first hand 92% on a 1OOk cycle hurts almost as much as stubbing your little toe.

There is also a much more extensive log on the forum that has run for many years demonstrating that even with the best available gear in game, some months are just dog shit.

I think the wider issue is that peoples expectations of high efficiency gear are vastly disproportionate to the reality of using such a weapon. It’s pretty hard to generate the kinds of mark up needed to justify such a purchase on a 1-2k hp mob.

Spending 30k on 30-40 dps is like buying a Ferrari to drive the corner shop and the difference between what can be achieved with one of those pea shooters and an LP100 is night and day which is probably why there’s plenty of salt sprinkled around the forums.

That being said I am interested to see how you get on if you can keep it up.
 

SuperFly

Guardian
Joined
Aug 1, 2019
Posts
272
Society
LCA>TKoE>CoTS>Freelancer
Avatar Name
Leo SuperFly Phoenix
u waste your time with that 59 % eff
I do! And i do really like it :D

It's actually quite easy to observe the effect of efficiency. ... and observe the difference in returns between different setups
I dont observe the effect of the efficiency and dont compare the difference of different setup in this experiment.
 

Gopher

Guardian
Joined
Nov 20, 2021
Posts
327
Society
Victory
Avatar Name
Gopher Goofer Bless
I am excited to see the results of this experiment, especially since I mostly hunt low lvl mobs in 30-100 hp range stuff apart from events like mayhem and theres no loot 2.0 weapon in the dps range I need, so I am stuck in 60% eff. gl
 
Last edited:

minim

Elite
Joined
Dec 15, 2010
Posts
3,596
Location
Bergen, Norway
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Mini MiniM Mine
I am excited to see the results of this experiment, especially since I mostly hunt low lvl mobs like exa young n stuff and theres no loot 2.0 weapon in the dps range I need, so I am stuck in 60% eff. gl
Mod 30, argo Seal claw and 40 FEN thats for sale on pcf now would suit those :)
 

Slyk

Old Alpha
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Posts
983
Avatar Name
Havenn Slyk Ragnarok
Yep, i heard this many times "dude, you can not get more than 95% TT back with low eff setup" ( from the 'ped printer' sellers mosty LOL ). I strongly believe EU is a skill-based game ( as it stated by MA ) and the skillz and the knowledge of the game mechanics are just another way to get good results. That is why i set this experiment for.

Thanks for your opinion anyway.
I strongly believe MA developer notes which state efficiency can attribute 7% for loot returns, I also strongly believe that over 2mil ped cycle with m83 (64% eff amped) at looter 25 > 55 was 93.8% while 10mil+ with 80% has been 96.8%
 

atomicstorm

Slayer
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Posts
8,060
Location
Blockchain
Avatar Name
MeLoveYou LongTime FiveDolla
One way to do this though is to observe TT in/out of *every* mob you loot. If you do this you can filter out, let's say, only multis below 1x and observe the difference in returns between different setups. With this method it's possible to see a clear effect of efficiency with as few as 1000 data points. And the effect correlates well with the official statements about efficiency.
This is the effect of looter, my friends - over 400,000 data points. Take it from it what you will.
 

Rocket192

Elite
Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Posts
2,880
Location
Michigan
Society
Classified
Avatar Name
Sean Rocket Connors
I strongly believe MA developer notes which state efficiency can attribute 7% for loot returns, I also strongly believe that over 2mil ped cycle with m83 (64% eff amped) at looter 25 > 55 was 93.8% while 10mil+ with 80% has been 96.8%
i believe a lot of that m83 cycle occurred before looter profs when even imk2 users were at 95% or less iirc?

i can tell you with certainty that looter level can compensate for at least some of the TT lost due to low efficiency. though i don't believe 100+ looter 60% eff will achieve the same tt as 100+ looter 90% eff.

probably diminishes over time but if you have at least decent looter levels you can use dogshit weapons, maxed, and get around that 97% figure MA cited years ago.


tl;dr skill up as much as possible and use the best gear as possible. shortcuts don't reward you over time.
 
Last edited:

miathan

Dominant
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Posts
466
Location
Sweden
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Alindrina Alli Golden
This is the effect of looter, my friends - over 400,000 data points. Take it from it what you will.
Not sure what you mean. The only variable I changed during these experiments was efficiency. My looter was the same.
 

Jhereg

Stalker
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Posts
2,129
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Feng Huan SecretAznMan Zho
The test specified by Miathan should be done in the following way to satisfy everyone :ROFLMAO:

You need at least one avatar with low looter, and one with high looter level.

You need at least two weapons, one with low efficiency and one with high efficiency.

1) Run both of the weapons on the low and high looter level avatar, ideally on something that you can get lots of kills, and not have to heal or take armor decay. Lifesteal would help here.

2) Compare difference in the mean of the small multipliers. This will tell you the effect of efficiency at high versus low looter level if there is even any difference. It can also tell you the scaling function of looter skill by comparing same weapon on different avatars.



My hypothesis is that there's no reason that efficiency and looter doesn't both impact tt returns, as MA suggests...
 
Top