Minor Scope/Sight Test

[JohnCapital]

Caveat: Yes these were small tests. Feel free to test yourself and see if results vary.

Problem: Look at scope/sight descriptions
"...This sight will increase the shooters aim..."
"...This scope will increase the shooters aim..."

I thought about how other things work in this universe (or how I think they work anyway) and hit upon an idea. What if the descriptions are missing a strategic yet vital word?
"This sight will increase the shooters aim skill."
"This scope will increase the shooters aim skill."

Theory: I believe with sights/scopes you get increased hit profession skill gains in exchange for the decay using them.

Test: Do 2 hunts, 1 with and without sights/scopes. Scan and compare skill gains. If possible do no other activity except shoot that gun.

Action:

1. Scan skills
2. hunt
3. scan skills
4. hunt
5. scan skills
6. Compare skill gains of both hunts

Equipment:

• Ep-40
• A104
• 2x Hunnir Laser Sight (22% skill mod & 0.00098 decay/shot)
• Jzar Precision Scope (14% skill mod & 0.00088 decay/shot)

Each run consisted of 101 peds of ammo, or 1,010 shots each. (10 ammo/shot)

I shot Jason drones never once using a fap, rifle or any other item during the hunts, meaning the skill gains were purely from using the ep-40 + attachments.

Run 1: No scopes/sights
Run 2: Scopes/sights

Difference in skill gains between the two hunts (negative means I gained more skills during run 1)

Skill making the Laser Pistoleer (Hit) Profession
*Attributes: Agility -0.02
Combat: Aim 1.3
*Combat: Combat Reflexes 0.12
Combat: Handgun -0.42
Combat: Marksmanship -0.61
Combat: Weapons Handling 0.11
Construction: Laser Weaponry Technology 0.35
General: Coolness 2.66
*General: Courage -1.28
General: Dexterity 0.12
General: Perception 0.71
*General: Serendipity -1.57
Total = 1.51 gain

Skill making the Ranged Laser (Dmg) Profession
*Attributes: Agility -0.02
Combat: Inflict Ranged Damage 0.37
Combat: Marksmanship -0.61
Combat: Ranged Damage Assessment -1.29
Construction: Laser Weaponry Technology 0.35
*General: Serendipity -1.57
Medical: Anatomy 0.67
Total = -2.1 loss

Total skill gain difference: 0.79 extra on hunt 2 (including dodge skills)
*Also affected by Dodge profession skill gains

Also of note, just to judge my hunting style for both runs
Skill making the Dodge Profession
Attributes: Agility -0.02
Combat: Combat Reflexes 0.12
Defense: Avoidance 1.3
Defense: Dodge -2.01
General: Alertness 0.24
General: Athletics 0.03
General: Courage -1.28
General: Serendipity -1.57
Total = -3.19
Meaning I was getting attacked less in hunt 2, either by not agroing so many at once and/or killing them quicker. (I did note a slight increase in critical hits in hunt 2.)

In short, I got the increased hit profession gains I expected, however, I also got a decreased gain in dmg profession, which was not expected.

Yes this was a very short test. I may do longer tests to verify. However, as things stand right now, unless found incorrect, a few things can be taken from this:

• If you want to improve hit skills, use sights/scopes
• If you want to improve dmg skills, go without

Also, since my theory is based on returns for decay:

• It's perfectly fine to use sights/scopes on maxed guns
• It's also fine to use them even if they are almost broke

 

[kpward]

....i will give this a try. Thx Capital.



darri

 

[Jimmy B]

In short, I got the increased hit profession gains I expected, however, I also got a decreased gain in dmg profession, which was not expected.

I think that in all likelihood all that just shows the test wasn't long enough. One is randomly up a little, the other randomly down a little.

Although, am I right in thinking for your totals you've just added the numbers? To judge profession level gain you should be multiplying by the weightings really (-0.42 handgun has a bigger impact than +1.3 aim). Also all the skills are at different levels, so the gains/losses represent different skill volumes (how much ESI they would fill) depending on the the level of the skill.

And should post the gains per run so we can see the significance of the variance.

I did have that theory myself, not sure it ever got tested properly tbh. Nice to see someone giving it a bash but I think there's a long way to go before any conclusions can be drawn here.

 

[Lord Daedra]

Check this page
http://entropiawiki.com/Page.aspx?page=ChartTalk:Weapon

SkillModifier = 100 + Sight1.SkillModifier + Sight2.SkillModifier + Scope.SkillModifier

HitModifier = HitModifier * (SkillModifier/100)

But HitModifier must be less or = 1. (you agree?) or (0.8 + HitModifier * 0.125) will more than 92,5%...

If this information is actual now, you can use attachments to increase your gun eco.

1/(1+2*0,22+0,14)=0,6329
So on 63,29 lvl+ of your Hit profession with this attachments will 92,5% (as on 100lvl).

IMHO, based on Witte's information...

 

[JohnCapital]

And should post the gains per run so we can see the significance of the variance.

Yeah, I figured you'd want those. Here you go.

Before the hunts

Agility	68.68
Intelligence	48.88
Psyche	29.04
Stamina	9
Strength	43.3
Health	146.51
Alertness	3104.07
Athletics	3629.62
Bravado	751.7
Coolness	2672.23
Courage	3901.87
Dexterity	3338.09
Perception	2895.9
Serendipity	3854.21
Aim	3549.88
Clubs	1
Combat Reflexes	3988.16
Handgun	5923.19
Heavy Melee Weapons	589.6
Heavy Weapons	1
Inflict Melee Damage	614.51
Inflict Ranged Damage	3725.28
Light Melee Weapons	275.31
Longblades	2982.65
Marksmanship	5512.09
Martial Arts	131
Melee Combat	1120.41
Melee Damage Assessment	612.52
Power Fist	614.71
Ranged Damage Assessment	5325.75
Rifle	5096.31
Shortblades	704.13
Support Weapon Systems	1300.7
Weapons Handling	4507.22
Whip	1
Avoidance	475.14
Dispense Decoy	26.34
Dodge	1441.74
Evade	3560.22
Anatomy	5968.8
Diagnosis	1390.22
First Aid	3848.49
Medicine	543.49
Treatment	218.3
Analysis	80.62
Animal Lore	141.3
Animal Taming	63.4
Biology	36.92
Botany	4.15
Computer	666.64
Electronics	205.36
Engineering	120.42
Genetics	2.17
Mechanics	48.35
Zoology	78.64
Mentor	4.55
Probing	53.88
Scan Animal	36.9
Scan Human	169.38
Scan Mutant	6.91
Scan Robot	124.37
Calypso Ground Assessment	504
Drilling	1561.73
Geology	1513.67
Metallurgy	68.75
Mining	2073.79
Prospecting	2073.43
Surveying	1459.08
Armor Technology	32.61
Attachments Technology	41.67
BLP Weaponry Technology	3529.68
Carpentry	11.67
Gauss Weaponry Technology	1
Laser Weaponry Technology	6528.15
Machinery	110.5
Manufacture Armor	71.21
Manufacture Attachments	144.43
Manufacture Electronic Equipment	359.33
Manufacture Mechanical Equipment	105.54
Manufacture Metal Equipment	196.35
Manufacture Tools	11.25
Manufacture Weapons	1.28
Particle Beamer Technology	1
Plasma Weaponry Technology	1368.39
Tools Technology	2.92
Weapon Technology	91.22
Wood Carving	1.74
Wood Processing	1
Color Matching	46.73
Coloring	87.93
Make Textile	131.22
Tailoring	25.53
Biotropy	4.92
Concentration	508.59
Psychotropy	1050.35
Pyrotropy	1
Sweat Gatherer	498.78
Body Sculpting	1
Face Sculpting	1
Hair Stylist	1
Plastic Surgery	1
Explosive Projectile Technology	1572.1
Texture Engineering	65.38
Texture Pattern Matching	1

Hunt 1

Agility	68.7
Intelligence	48.88
Psyche	29.04
Stamina	9
Strength	43.3
Health	146.52
Alertness	3104.07
Athletics	3629.83
Bravado	751.7
Coolness	2674.15
Courage	3903.31
Dexterity	3339.18
Perception	2897.13
Serendipity	3857.45
Aim	3551
Clubs	1
Combat Reflexes	3988.41
Handgun	5925.55
Heavy Melee Weapons	589.6
Heavy Weapons	1
Inflict Melee Damage	614.51
Inflict Ranged Damage	3727.7
Light Melee Weapons	275.31
Longblades	2982.65
Marksmanship	5513.6
Martial Arts	131
Melee Combat	1120.41
Melee Damage Assessment	612.52
Power Fist	614.71
Ranged Damage Assessment	5328.8
Rifle	5096.31
Shortblades	704.13
Support Weapon Systems	1300.7
Weapons Handling	4508.3
Whip	1
Avoidance	475.74
Dispense Decoy	26.34
Dodge	1446.73
Evade	3560.22
Anatomy	5969.64
Diagnosis	1390.22
First Aid	3848.49
Medicine	543.49
Treatment	218.3
Analysis	80.62
Animal Lore	141.3
Animal Taming	63.4
Biology	36.92
Botany	4.15
Computer	666.64
Electronics	205.36
Engineering	120.42
Genetics	2.17
Mechanics	48.35
Zoology	78.64
Mentor	4.55
Probing	53.88
Scan Animal	36.9
Scan Human	169.38
Scan Mutant	6.91
Scan Robot	124.37
Calypso Ground Assessment	504
Drilling	1561.73
Geology	1513.67
Metallurgy	68.75
Mining	2073.79
Prospecting	2073.43
Surveying	1459.08
Armor Technology	32.61
Attachments Technology	41.67
BLP Weaponry Technology	3529.68
Carpentry	11.67
Gauss Weaponry Technology	1
Laser Weaponry Technology	6529.65
Machinery	110.5
Manufacture Armor	71.21
Manufacture Attachments	144.43
Manufacture Electronic Equipment	359.33
Manufacture Mechanical Equipment	105.54
Manufacture Metal Equipment	196.35
Manufacture Tools	11.25
Manufacture Weapons	1.28
Particle Beamer Technology	1
Plasma Weaponry Technology	1368.39
Tools Technology	2.92
Weapon Technology	91.22
Wood Carving	1.74
Wood Processing	1
Color Matching	46.73
Coloring	87.93
Make Textile	131.22
Tailoring	25.53
Biotropy	4.92
Concentration	508.59
Psychotropy	1050.35
Pyrotropy	1
Sweat Gatherer	498.78
Body Sculpting	1
Face Sculpting	1
Hair Stylist	1
Plastic Surgery	1
Explosive Projectile Technology	1572.1
Texture Engineering	65.38
Texture Pattern Matching	1

Hunt 2

Agility	68.7
Intelligence	48.88
Psyche	29.04
Stamina	9
Strength	43.3
Health	146.54
Alertness	3104.31
Athletics	3630.07
Bravado	751.7
Coolness	2678.73
Courage	3903.47
Dexterity	3340.39
Perception	2899.07
Serendipity	3859.12
Aim	3553.42
Clubs	1
Combat Reflexes	3988.78
Handgun	5927.49
Heavy Melee Weapons	589.6
Heavy Weapons	1
Inflict Melee Damage	614.51
Inflict Ranged Damage	3730.49
Light Melee Weapons	275.31
Longblades	2982.65
Marksmanship	5514.5
Martial Arts	131
Melee Combat	1120.41
Melee Damage Assessment	612.52
Power Fist	614.71
Ranged Damage Assessment	5330.56
Rifle	5096.31
Shortblades	704.13
Support Weapon Systems	1300.7
Weapons Handling	4509.49
Whip	1
Avoidance	477.64
Dispense Decoy	26.34
Dodge	1449.71
Evade	3560.22
Anatomy	5971.15
Diagnosis	1390.22
First Aid	3848.49
Medicine	543.49
Treatment	218.3
Analysis	80.62
Animal Lore	141.3
Animal Taming	63.4
Biology	36.92
Botany	4.15
Computer	666.64
Electronics	205.36
Engineering	120.42
Genetics	2.17
Mechanics	48.35
Zoology	78.64
Mentor	4.55
Probing	53.88
Scan Animal	36.9
Scan Human	169.38
Scan Mutant	6.91
Scan Robot	124.37
Calypso Ground Assessment	504
Drilling	1561.73
Geology	1513.67
Metallurgy	68.75
Mining	2073.79
Prospecting	2073.43
Surveying	1459.08
Armor Technology	32.61
Attachments Technology	41.67
BLP Weaponry Technology	3529.68
Carpentry	11.67
Gauss Weaponry Technology	1
Laser Weaponry Technology	6531.5
Machinery	110.5
Manufacture Armor	71.21
Manufacture Attachments	144.43
Manufacture Electronic Equipment	359.33
Manufacture Mechanical Equipment	105.54
Manufacture Metal Equipment	196.35
Manufacture Tools	11.25
Manufacture Weapons	1.28
Particle Beamer Technology	1
Plasma Weaponry Technology	1368.39
Tools Technology	2.92
Weapon Technology	91.22
Wood Carving	1.74
Wood Processing	1
Color Matching	46.73
Coloring	87.93
Make Textile	131.22
Tailoring	25.53
Biotropy	4.92
Concentration	508.59
Psychotropy	1050.35
Pyrotropy	1
Sweat Gatherer	498.78
Body Sculpting	1
Face Sculpting	1
Hair Stylist	1
Plastic Surgery	1
Explosive Projectile Technology	1572.1
Texture Engineering	65.38
Texture Pattern Matching	1

If you can make any better sense of it, that would be great.

Hopefully, someone else is willing to take this idea and test it out a bit better. Or maybe I will, when I have the chance.

 

[Jimmy B]

Its just too short a test to deduce anything from JC I'm afraid.

The lower weighted skill gains will be very random over this length of test. We can see that in the results, the ones like Handgun and LWT which have a high weighting and hence will occur more regularly have less volatility than the ones with lower weighting.

I'd say it really needs to be a the very least 10 times longer I'm afraid.

 

[Zacariaz]

Yes, sry, kinda useless, but it would be interesting if scopes/lasers has any impact on skillgains.

I will not make that test though. I already planned a long the of what that damn skill modifier really mean. People have done this before, but every single attemp, something seems to be missing.

Anyway, I'll make sure to dertermine it when I get the time and of course the results, if interesting, will be poste here.

 

[paduguy]

well done,ty for ur info,although there is a long way before i will go huntig with scopes or sights

 

[Executor]

Nice concept

Very interesting concept, indeed. +Rep.


So far, I believe that the common understanding was they were increasing the skills effects, not the skills themselves, as you say. (Or at least my own understanding )

And since it could never be proven, I was only considering these atatchments are bugged items which decay and give nothing back. A gift form MA.

If you can test more and prove that they actually are some SIB items, that will become very intersting for the skill-addicted people.

 

[Immortal]

DO more tests. Preferably same mob, 1kped min. Do ten of them each. There are some assumptions you have stated like "i assume this means it works on maxed weapons". THere's nothing from your data that suggests that

What was your:

armor decay
time spent hunting
number of mobs killed
loot return

these are variables that need to be stated and considered when doing such tests. There have been no counter tests to suggest these factors have no influence. You eliminated fap decay and mob type and limited mob maturity, and that is helpful, but for a meaningful analysis you need to do take into account all factors (especially atm where we are getting double skills it's also a bit iffy- what does double skills even mean? to me it means double the TT value of skill per hunt, but it might mean something else to a nother avatar)

 

[Arto]

Probably just incidental

I have always kept the best scope and laser sights I have available bolted onto my non SIB weapons in the belief that they improve the effect of the skills you already have re:Hit Ability.

Just to say that in my skills the hit professions are higher than damage by about 2-4 pro levels on weapons which have sights capability. (I'm just over 30 laser hit)

In my melee the hit and damage are pretty close, within one pro level I think.

This may not be right but perhaps they could increase the skill you receive as well as reduce the quantity of misses.

With the current SIB based system I can't see much of a future in this area of the game apart from a scope used to zoom in on target and inspect it.

Nice work though JC as a fan of Non (L) stuff it would be nice to know.

Arto

 

[jcfuller]

I'll state what I have before ( I think). Scopes and Lasers increase the hit box size. It really doesn't mean too much but MA's ass is covered if ever called to task(very doubtful) and there is no way we can prove it one way or another.
That's why no tests have ever been conclusive.
James

 

[JohnCapital]

There are some assumptions you have stated like "i assume this means it works on maxed weapons". THere's nothing from your data that suggests that

If I'm right, and you get skill gains in exchange decay, (as is the current theory regarding weapons, crafting, etc.) then maxed or non-maxed is irrelevant.

Also, I've discussed this long ago with Stryker, after he maxed the mod merc. He said he talked to MA support and their response was that sights and scopes always help.

What was your:

armor decay
time spent hunting
number of mobs killed
loot return

these are variables that need to be stated and considered when doing such tests. There have been no counter tests to suggest these factors have no influence. You eliminated fap decay and mob type and limited mob maturity, and that is helpful, but for a meaningful analysis you need to do take into account all factors (especially atm where we are getting double skills it's also a bit iffy- what does double skills even mean? to me it means double the TT value of skill per hunt, but it might mean something else to a nother avatar)

I did this test during the 2x skill gain precisely because it would be easier to see gains. I will try to test more, but fact is, my wife clicked away my latest hof in her push for BPC.

Most of the factors are irrelevant to this test IMO. I'm going out with the exact same ammo. I placed all looted light ammo in a storage box to make sure I didn't use them. This means that I'm doing the exact same 1,010 shots per run.

As for armor decay, it was minimal. Kobold+6A (of course ) I don't normally go running into big herds. At worst I have 3 bots at once on me (due to not using any rifle to pull them) but that was quite rare. I'm aware that dodge affects some skills in this test, so I try to make sure this is as low as possible.

So far, I believe that the common understanding was they were increasing the skills effects, not the skills themselves, as you say. (Or at least my own understanding )

And since it could never be proven, I was only considering these atatchments are bugged items which decay and give nothing back. A gift form MA.

Why do so many people think that MA would allow laser sights to offer no benefit whatsoever for years on end? And why would they remove the bug that allowed me to place sights/scopes on nerve blast and firestorm chips? (Version Update: 8.9) If they were "free decay money", why not let that "bug" stay?

I will try to repeat the tests with higher ammo runs. However, don't feel shy about testing this yourself as well.

 

[JohnCapital]

I'll state what I have before ( I think). Scopes and Lasers increase the hit box size.

I partially agree with the hitbox issue, but not in the way you think. I've shot the same mob and taken off the attachments mid-mob and continued shooting. I saw no difference in the hitbox whatsoever.

However, scopes do in fact increase the size of the hitbox when zooming in, thus making "sniper shots" much easier.

This may not be right but perhaps they could increase the skill you receive as well as reduce the quantity of misses.

I believe the same thing. Tests have shown that there does seem to be increased hit accuracy, but I'm also personally sure that the hit profession skills do gain an increase as well.

 

[jcfuller]

I partially agree with the hitbox issue, but not in the way you think. I've shot the same mob and taken off the attachments mid-mob and continued shooting. I saw no difference in the hitbox whatsoever.

NO NO not the VIEWED size, the box size the actual code uses to determine if a hit has taken place. It would be impossible to test. What caused the miss? A normal miss,lag.....

James

 

[Legion]

easiest way to test this would be to make a new ava (yes i know ur only allowed one, but for test purpose i think it would be ok ;P) and then go do a hunt without and do a long hunt ie like an hour atleast. check skillgains and then extract all skills and redo the test with stuff attached.