Question: Quantity vs. Condition

Zacariaz

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Ok, so UBER's done while crafting on full condition keeps showing up.
I have yet to make a crafting hof, but then again, I always craft on full quantity to ensure best chance of success, but now I start to wonder whether this is the right thing to do.

i've always thought that, in the end, it shouldn't make any difference as long as you're doing tt food at least. I mean, sure, you get bigger returns when you're actually successfull, but success are very rare.

What are your recomendations?
 
Just because you global or hof, doesn't mean you profit. So, craft on quantity, and add residue if you do an (L) item
 
I didn't say that hof != profit. All I asked was if, in the long run, one was better than the other.

Anyway, I did an experiment crafting MA101 lights on full condition and got my first and almost second hof in 3+ years, which was nice. I don't know if I profited, probably not, but where I thought that you would succeed 1 in a 1000 tried or something like that, it is now clear that the COS on full condition is not that bad.
 
I didn't say that hof != profit. All I asked was if, in the long run, one was better than the other.

Anyway, I did an experiment crafting MA101 lights on full condition and got my first and almost second hof in 3+ years, which was nice. I don't know if I profited, probably not, but where I thought that you would succeed 1 in a 1000 tried or something like that, it is now clear that the COS on full condition is not that bad.

No, it's not quite as bad as 1/1000 successes, but it is still a very large gamble. I know I've done the OA-101 runs on full condition and gone 20+ clicks in a row with 0 successes. I'm sure others have longer failed runs as I only dabble in crafting now and again. Also we're talking about lower level crafting where the cost of materials is low. I imagine those that are crafting higher lvl stuff that costs hundreds of ped/click will always click on condition
 
Its rather simple...

Over the long term, Quantity and Condition will theoretically provide "equal" TT returns. Quantity results in more successes, but smaller successes (and near successes). Condition results in less successes, but much larger successes (and near successes). Although, the larger successes are made up of more components (up to a certain # of components) or a higher conditioned item, and then the rest will be residue (Or less residue used to complete the item to max TT in the case of item crafting).

This means that Quantity crafting will give you more component-heavy results, or more of the items you are trying to craft. While Condition will make your (supposedly equal TT) results very residue-based.

So if you are crafting anything with more MU than the residue you are looting, then you will want to be on full quantity all the time. For components you are TT'ing, you might want to go to condition if you are doing a large enough run for the TT of the return to even out, because then you at least get MU on the additional residue.

Hope this helps. ;)

-Omega
 
I think I get the idea.

Thanks for the help.
 
Its rather simple...

Over the long term, Quantity and Condition will theoretically provide "equal" TT returns. Quantity results in more successes, but smaller successes (and near successes). Condition results in less successes, but much larger successes (and near successes). Although, the larger successes are made up of more components (up to a certain # of components) or a higher conditioned item, and then the rest will be residue (Or less residue used to complete the item to max TT in the case of item crafting).

This means that Quantity crafting will give you more component-heavy results, or more of the items you are trying to craft. While Condition will make your (supposedly equal TT) results very residue-based.

So if you are crafting anything with more MU than the residue you are looting, then you will want to be on full quantity all the time. For components you are TT'ing, you might want to go to condition if you are doing a large enough run for the TT of the return to even out, because then you at least get MU on the additional residue.

Hope this helps. ;)

-Omega

He is on the right track, though points to consider.

The crafting machine works with TT values only to produce the TT returns, yet loot outcomes are based on your overall contribution to economic flow ...
(paying markups & LA-tax amongst other things out to others throughout your participation across all spheres of activity, see end of post for more info on this)
... so you will need to consider the markups involved with materials your using.

Large crafting hofs and very large globals consist of a residue component and a gems component, moreso the gems in very large hofs which sell for 0% markup.

So if your low skilled, take a balanced approach to moving towards condition, don't just go for condition lol, you will need a lot of ped to support the highly sporadic returns if you do.

Getting the balance right is very important if your looking to become a successful crafter in Entropia Universe.

Here is a breakdown to your approach you will need to consider.

A. Is Red to Orange-Yellow for you ?

If your looking to produce less product and skill faster this is for you.

Or if your here to use Entropia as a cheap frills mechanism at potentially great short term expense (ie. Gambling) then this setting is also for you.

- Potential of very nice recipe drops can be found here, higher than the recipe level of the item your crafting, usually of higher market value and are your primary cost offset.
- Faster rate of Profession level skilling and BP QR
- Low quantity of successful production of product is made here with moderate to higher or full TT values on each successful outcome.
- Residue makes up a small portion of the HoF/Global, Gems makes up the majority of the HoF/Global at 0% markup.

End result, your ped is consumed primarily into the form of skills & BP QR and with less returned product or residue to sell in an attempt to break even or profit. If your lucky you will however receive a nice BP.

B. Is Yellow moderately tinged with green for you ?

If your looking to progress your profession levels at a moderately even rate with a moderately even return on product and residue without too many gems, then Yellowie-Green is for you.

-Potential of good quality and value recipes can be found here, usually of or just above the current item recipe level being crafted.
- Moderate rate of Profession level skilling and raising BP QR
- Moderate quantity of successful production of product is made here with moderate TT values on each successful outcome
- Large globals and small HoFs are primarily residue, the rare occassional drop of a gem will occur at 0% sale markup.

End Result, your ped consumption is balanced in skills, QR and product/residue return, this is the *best setting for progressing with produced items of value* to sell to break-even or close to breaking even.


C. Is green as the grassy green hills for you ?

If your looking for a higher rate of product return with a slightly slower rate of profession level and BP QR skilling, then green is for you.

- You won't find any gems here, well once in a blue moon when the system generates a unexpected return event.
- Product is guaranteed over the long-haul (1-in-3 clicks guarantees product) to be at the highest return rate for your skill level and BP QR level.
- Greater quantity of successful production of product is made here with lower TT values on each successful outcome
- Profession level and QR skill at a slightly slower rate.
- Residue is returned at a rate by the system in an attempt to assist in balancing markups paid for resources (within reason)
- Naturally this is the setting to use for best rate of success on very high valued product requiring very high markup resources, using residue as a filler if the item is (L)imited.

End Result, less ped is consumed in skilling your profession level and BP QR, more is returned in the form of product and residue offset. Gems are extremely unlikely on this setting


A note on residue and loot outcomes.

The return rate and the rate at which you skill at in profession level and BP QR will be different for everyone depending on the choices you make along with the contributions you have made to flow of the economy.

Residue is allocated by the system in such a way as to level out the cost of your participation experience, it is balanced between the sale value of the product being produced, the skills acquired & BP QR increases produced in the manufacturing process.

The system does treat everyone fairly and does balance out the costs based upon markups paid out to others within reason (promoting economic flow) for those whom take a consistent approach to participation/spend rate.

Blueprint (L) drops.

These only occur from level 2 crafted recipes and up for end-products and textures.

Hope that helps with any of the missing gaps :)

Cheers and good luck,
Sparkz
 
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That was some post, very nice.

Anyway, it's more or less all as I expected it too be, however, one question remain.

Components, that is item without variable tt value. Does I make any sence to craft those at full condition? Will the number of, lets say sheet metal, recieved upon a succesfull attempt increase proportionally?
 
Components, that is item without variable tt value. Does I make any sence to craft those at full condition? Will the number of, lets say sheet metal, recieved upon a succesfull attempt increase proportionally?

Not exactly,

Entropia is dynamic in the way it returns loot to you while consuming resource TT (ped) to skill up your profession level skills and BP QR.

From my above post you can see as you move closer to condition, more of your resource TT (ped) is being used in the process of being turned into skills and BP QR rather than into returned product.

However ... (Full quantity, not condition example)

As you skill up in profession level and also blueprint quality, you will notice that the condition bar if you have it on full quantity, slowly moves up, getting greener as your profession level and BP QR increase.

This means if left at full quantity setting, less of the resource TT goes into skilling up your profession level skills and BP QR and more of the resource TT is returned in produced product.

The choices you make in moving the condition bar down will determine your rate of product return based on your profession level and blueprint quality level at that time

Sorry to have used the word dynamic in this explaination, though other factors are involved with your rate of product return within any one crafting session.

Entropia is one giant accounting platform, so if you have buffered PED to be returned to you from loses in other spheres of activity.

This ped to be returned can influence the outcome of your rate of return for the crafting session your current undertaking.

To directly answer your question ...

No, the Entropia Universe system does not use proportional linear based algorithms, it uses exponential curve based aligorthms.

That is of course if you were to plot the data and then normalise the data plotted.

Hope that helps a little, it is a very hard system to explain properly in a single post. Been there tried it, failed :D
 
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Well, it's a hard system to explain in anycase as noone really knows exactly how it works.

I any case, I understand what you are sayint like this:

The greener the bar, the more of the input are turned in to output.
The Redder the bar, the more of the input is turned in to skills/qr.

Seems more or less correct. i have experienced more skill/qr gains while crafting on full condition, so I'll believe that. As for the lower return, I don't really know, but it would make sence.
 
Well, it's a hard system to explain in anycase as noone really knows exactly how it works.

I any case, I understand what you are sayint like this:

The greener the bar, the more of the input are turned in to output.
The Redder the bar, the more of the input is turned in to skills/qr.

Seems more or less correct. i have experienced more skill/qr gains while crafting on full condition, so I'll believe that. As for the lower return, I don't really know, but it would make sence.

Aye,

If you were to plot the exponential product return curve at various points of condition along with plotting the skill point and BP QR skill rate at those same points using several large runs to iron out an inconsistences (for the most part)

Collate that data for each run through a process of mean averages

Super impose both the skill curve and BP QR curves to produce a single curve then normalise the data for both the product return curve and combined skill/qr curves

... and using scaling geometric (congruent) curve comparison

They should be close to exact opposites, putting them together producing a somewhat equal result for each condition test point.

Well in theory anyway :)

Never got off my arse to put in such effort to working such things out as I have come to trust the Entropia system over the last year and a half since I started.

The point being,

All PED eventually turns into skill points, and BP QR with crafting in Entropia Universe. (MindArk's service fee taken out in the process naturally)

Cost of Participation (CoP) is balanced out to be the same for everyone over the long term (Or very close to the same),

It is the balance between the rate at which you wish to turn this PED into skill points across the spheres of activity and QR in crafting that is the question you need to ask yourself.

What PED spend rate are you happy with converting into skills for the period you wish that PED to last before your next deposit ;)

Keeping in mind,
EU is a world of Entertainment or game as some refer to it.

Answer :
To quote McCormick : The Choice is yours, how far will you go :D
 
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The return rate and the rate at which you skill at in profession level and BP QR will be different for everyone depending on the choices you make along with the contributions you have made to flow of the economy.

Residue is allocated by the system in such a way as to level out the cost of your participation experience, it is balanced between the sale value of the product being produced, the skills acquired & BP QR increases produced in the manufacturing process.

The system does treat everyone fairly and does balance out the costs based upon markups paid out to others within reason (promoting economic flow) for those whom take a consistent approach to participation/spend rate.

So you're saying that return rates are affected by the markup of the crafted item? The way I understand your statement is that success rate as far as the component or item you are producing is the same regardless of what you are producing, then of course there is residue, which along with the components, left-over materials from near successes, BP's, and gems makes up the rest of your return. The part I'm not sure I'm understanding correctly is you then go on to say (I think) that the amount of residue you get is partially determined based on the mark-up of the component/item you are producing?

If this is what you are trying to say, then I disagree. From my experience the TT return has been completely unrelated to what I am clicking on. Of course the amount of residue varies on each run, but this is because of 1 or more "above average" clicks.

I've found that the % of your return on mats as far as components goes is always the same, within 4 or 5%. Then the rest of your return is residue. If you get enough residue, you break even or profit. If you don't, you lose. If you have more markup in your component vs. markup in the cost of the run, then less residue is required to break even.

For me anyways, there has been no variance in the long term return % on TT from one component to the other, regardless of component MU, or material MU.

Cheers,
Omega
 
I'll have to agree on that one. MU shouldn't have anything to do with it as it is determined by the players and not MA.
 
So you're saying that return rates are affected by the markup of the crafted item? <shortened>

No, you have misinterupted the post.

Simple version.

The system works with TT in what is returned.

There is a balance between how much of this TT is used for skilling your profession skill and BP QR verses how much you get back in product return based on where you have the quantity <----> condition slider.

Loot outcomes, not TT returned, for example, nice blueprint (L) worth 0.02 ped that sells for 600+ped 3mil+ % such as the nano dia-katana (L) blueprint (L) is determined upon your economic contribution to the community in paying markups to others, taxes to land-owners along with other factors.

Rate of return is not quantifable as a constant due to the system returning loses from other spheres of activity throughout your past participation in Entropia amongst using other information within your accounting records in the balancing process of CoP (Cost of Participation) for each participant hence rate of skill gains and return, including portion of product and residue will be different for everyone.

ie. A personal experiencing different to the participant next to you using the same settings as you, the same skill point value and BP QR value

etc etc etc. I hope you can follow this explaination better.

This is why the term Dynamic is used so often to try and explain things that people will misinterupt no matter how many ways you try and explain their complexities.

The system does treat everyone fairly by constantly balancing out the CoP over the long term for everyone who takes a consistent approach to participating/spend-rate in Entropia Universe across all spheres of activity, hunting, mining & crafting.

If your not sure what I mean about loot outcomes and economic flow, I made a few other posts a while back, here is one of the more recent posts which has a link to an even older post upon economic flow observations made in the past.

A lot has been discovered since then but not much talked about, the knocking about process on the forums and explaining things to point of being totally drained in doing so is a past hobby.

Yet here is a post to a chap who was in a somewhat desperate situation, needing an ice-cube :D

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/entropia-universe-press/137573-entropia-universe-sure-has-bad-rep-16.html#post1697636
 
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I'll have to agree on that one. MU shouldn't have anything to do with it as it is determined by the players and not MA.

My point exactly. MU is completely player-controlled.

The greener the bar, the more of the input are turned in to output.
The Redder the bar, the more of the input is turned in to skills/qr.

As for this, this is not true from my experience. I haven't watched QR gains or skill gains too closely from one end of the condition bar to the other, but I can tell you that the TT return from Quantity and Condition is the same.

Components, that is item without variable tt value. Does I make any sence to craft those at full condition? Will the number of, lets say sheet metal, recieved upon a succesfull attempt increase proportionally?

Yes and no. Each component has a max # that can drop from one drop. This is why condition returns are far more residue-filled than quantity crafting returns. At a certain point the return of a click stops being component and gets paid out in residue instead. You will notice in "above average" clicks you will get max or near-max amount of components, then the rest will be several hundred or thousand residue.

For non-SIB BP's, the average number of components looted is higher than the SIB BP's. The max number varies from one component to another but is in relation (not linear) to the number looted on an average success. For example on Electropositive Modulators the average click will yield 9 or 10 Modulators, while the max is 50 or so. But on Simple I Plastic Springs, the average click will only loot 2-4, with the max being somewhere in the 12-14 range. I'm not sure exactly how the # of looted components, avg or max, is determined, but it is in correlation with the CPC vs. TT value of the component, so that an average the TT value success can be close to the TT cost of the click.
 
No, you have misinterupted the post.

Loot outcomes, not TT returned, for example, nice blueprint (L) worth 0.02 ped that sells for 600+ped 3mil+ % such as the nano dia-katana (L) blueprint (L) is determined upon your economic contribution to the community in paying markups to others, taxes to land-owners along with other factors.

Rate of return is not quantifable as a constant due to the system returning loses from other spheres of activity throughout your past participation in Entropia amongst using other information within your accounting records in the balancing process of CoP (Cost of Participation) for each participant hence rate of skill gains and return, including portion of product and residue will be different for everyone.

This, and much of your original post is pure speculation. What you say may be the case but there is certainly no proof you have shown that it is. My "CoP" appears to be considerably lower than most people here yet when comparing my results to others that keep detailed records, my results don't seem to be much different. Hence I am not convinced that if you, for example, hunt in a very inefficient manner you will suddenly be rewarded with better loots and blueprints when you are crafting.

I think you should present that information as theory, not as fact.
 
This, and much of your original post is pure speculation. What you say may be the case but there is certainly no proof you have shown that it is.

I think you should present that information as theory, not as fact.

I don't see an MA Official title near my name lol
I think you are missing what has been bolded in this reply to you.

I thought common-sense and reading the provided links would have clearly spelt that out to you. Even the word conjecture is used if you bothered to read the linked posts on Economic Flow.

Nothing about how the system works can be produced as fact unless directly outlined by an MA Official.

I suggest going back and reading the links provided in the post and the links that are within the linked posted before having a tanty over what common-sense tells you is conjecture and what is fact.

It re-inforces what was posted in this thread;

A lot has been discovered since then but not much talked about, the knocking about process on the forums and explaining things to point of being totally drained in doing so is a past hobby.

Unless your going to read things properly and use common-sense, please don't waste my time, it is a stinking hot summer here with daily temperatures over 40 degrees celsius.

My "CoP" appears to be considerably lower than most people here yet when comparing my results to others that keep detailed records, my results don't seem to be much different.

Yet they are not the same are they.

Rate of return is not quantifable as a constant due to the system returning loses from other spheres of activity throughout your past participation in Entropia amongst using other information within your accounting records in the balancing process of CoP (Cost of Participation) for each participant hence rate of skill gains and return, including portion of product and residue will be different for everyone.

ie. A personal experiencing different to the participant next to you using the same settings as you, the same skill point value and BP QR value

The system does treat everyone fairly by constantly balancing out the CoP over the long term for everyone who takes a consistent approach to participating/spend-rate in Entropia Universe across all spheres of activity, hunting, mining & crafting.


Here are the links again :

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/entropia-universe-press/137573-entropia-universe-sure-has-bad-rep-16.html#post1697636

Which has the included link, clearly stating that it is theory for you :

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/general-economy-discussion/120803-uber-weapon-market-stalling-11.html#post1481308

Hence I am not convinced that if you, for example, hunt in a very inefficient manner you will suddenly be rewarded with better loots and blueprints when you are crafting.

You will find once you have read the above provided links and the included posts in this thread that you have formed judgement (drawn conclusion) upon information you have perceived incorrectly.

My "CoP" appears to be considerably lower than most people here yet when comparing my results to others that keep detailed records, my results don't seem to be much different.[/B]

That is a lot of record keeping, I once kept such detailed records.

Records need to include finite details upon.

1. Every single skill point gained of skill gained in every session of activity and the calculated PED value of those skills per session (Much more complicated than this as all your total skill point counts are involved in recalculations of balancing your CoP - observation/speculation)
2. Every BP QR gained in every session of crafting activity as well. (Same as above)
3. Exactly how much TT resource was used or TT decay spent in ammo, armor, fap, weapon, mining tools, bombs, probes, literally everything down to the last PEC was spent per session.
4. What resources or products were return, their TT value, their sales markup TT or % amount. This also includes in the case of crafting, bvlueprint drops, their TT value that was dropped, the markup value.
5. Every item sold, how much you sold it for vs the markup value.
6. All taxes paid to land-owners down to the last PEC.

All the above down to the last PEC spent & sold, markup vs sale and markup value of items trashed to TT etc.

Markups you should use the decade record as it resembles upto the last 10yrs and includes all the day, week and month figures in it's calculation.

Unless your keeping records to this degree, which I am not sure any sane person would for a very long period, your assumption that your CoP is lower than others may be off.

You very well may have gained more in skill points than others, yes that is correct, rate of skilling is included in the balancing process for everyone as all skills have PED value too ;)

The system does not keep everyone at equal CoP all the time, though it does constantly work to balance it out for everyone every opportunity it is given.

It is done over the long term for those who take a consistent approach to participation over that long term

Either way

It is very much a learning curve most go through on a path of discovery in which eventually you come to trust the Entropia Universe system or you simply leave and never return.

Once you get to this point, you will find you set yourself free, you stop being so analytical about what the system is doing all the time and you actually start to enjoy virtual life in Entropia.

Most of all, you start to make inroads into achieving what you aspire to set out and do with your virtual life, rather than worrying about how the backend systems are all working - this in the end will destroy the virtual life experience that present-day, you may be missing out on ;)
 
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taking this to PM's to avoid polluting the thread any more than it already is.
 
taking this to PM's to avoid polluting the thread any more than it already is.

I felt the need to appologies to Karmic as he felt he was being personally attacked by me indicating that he was lacking simple common sense.

The extreme heat here over the last few weeks has left me with a lack of tolerance recently so again I applogies if you were offended Karmic.

As I replied in your post, your welcome to post and clarify that it is conjecture based on observation, but please do not tell me how to post and what to include, especially since it is already included in the provided linked posts.

He felt the need to tell me to write in my post that it is based around conjecture as to not mislead newcomers.

Having been a subject that has been discussed at length a number of times in the past, with those posts indicating they are theory based on observation, clearly stating the word conjecture;

I feel no need to place this information into every post I make unless discussing a completely new theory on a new set of observations made.

Which due to past experiences here on EF, I no longer do, otherwise there would be a dozen new and insight things I would have already posted about.

Point being made here.

The newcomer must learn rule number 1 when reading posts made by other participants.

All information posted by another participant is based on observations tested such as the armour and plate decay threads (Which are still not entirely correct, so not fact) or conjecture based on observations, tested or not.

Facts are only stated by MA officials, nobody else in reference to such discussions. Common-sense to distinguish the such is learnt quickly by all who survive the first couple of weeks/months in EU and on EF;

If not, they will learn soon enough of which I have no intention to continuously place in my posts every single time that this is based on conjecture.

If people don't like that, and can't use common-sense;

Stiff Shit, I am not here to mother others ;)

And just because I have spent an emmense amount of time and money in EU each day for the past year continually experimenting and testing out new theories and observations, does not mean I am better than anyone else in EU or on EF, maybe a little more experienced with a aspects of Entropia, but not better nor more intelligent than any other.

Everyone has the capacity to do such research for themselves.

Cheers and good luck,
Sparkz
 
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I felt the need to appologies to Karmic as he felt he was being personally attacked by me indicating that he was lacking simple common sense.

The extreme heat here over the last few weeks has left me with a lack of tolerance recently so again I applogies if you were offended Karmic.


No problem, as none of us are completely familiar with the exact mechanisms of the game we must simply make our way through as best we can. Certainly any insight is useful to help us think about it even if we disagree, a coarse word now and then in a heated discussion is understandable.
 
TT return surely is the same for both methods (if you do it 'long' enough). However, it depends on what you want from the run: more product or more residue+bp?

The loot system is really dynamic, we cannot say 'quantity' gives less good bps. However, most crafters do 'condition' crafting to fish good bps.

If you do p1a, p2a..p4a, you may want to do 'condition' crafting to loot residue and good bps. Because the markup of the product is less than the markup of residue.If you cannot afford more than 1k clicks or at least 500 clicks per run, just don't craft at all.
 
Thank you Lavawalker and others for some great information. I knew most of this info., but still learned a few things and I'm sure others will learn much from it.
 
No, it's not quite as bad as 1/1000 successes, but it is still a very large gamble. I know I've done the OA-101 runs on full condition and gone 20+ clicks in a row with 0 successes. I'm sure others have longer failed runs as I only dabble in crafting now and again. Also we're talking about lower level crafting where the cost of materials is low. I imagine those that are crafting higher lvl stuff that costs hundreds of ped/click will always click on condition

my best no succeed rate on oa-101 light was 186 clicks (like 1.3k ped lost) and the 187th was a 2.5k hof ... so was quite funny :D
an advice : if u do on condition be prepared for at least 500 clicks
u won;t regret that .... ofcourse if u do that often u will loose , i lost so far 16k but got lots of hofs .... globals lost the number lol :D is funny lol but u pay for the global or hof , u don;t get it .......:confused:
 
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