Suggestion: Rebalance the MindForce Combat Professions Skill Trees

Captain Jack

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MindForce recently hit the spotlight as "a good skill to boost your HP" due to the MindForce unlocks being given an HP boost. While this was a very welcome change, it has not solved the problem of MindForce lagging behind literally every other combat profession in the advancement of health points. Any avid MindForce user will tell you that by the time you hit about 5K points of Force Merge, you will hit a wall on your HP gains from MindForce and it's actually faster to go back to ranged weaponry even if you're significantly higher level in ranged weaponry than you are in mindforce. And melee even moreso, since melee not only integrates the traditional HP skills but also includes Melee Combat and Martial Arts on top.

Three possible solutions I propose to remedy this problem.

Solution #1: Reduce the burden on the primary skills (electrokinesis, pyrokinesis, cryogenics) and increase the gains on the side skills.
The MindForce (Hit) professions lean 50% of their profession exclusively to their primary skills. This results in massive primary skill gains that don't give HP, while the secondary skills come up very slowly due to the reduced emphasis on their professional advancement.

Solution #2: Add an HP gain to the primary skills of Electrokinesis, Pyrokinesis, and Cryogenics. This would give the MindForce users the added HP they are lacking from the gains of primary skills in other professions such as Laser Sniper (from Rifle) or BLP Pistoleer (from Pistol).

Solution #3: Integrate Coolness, Combat Sense, and Commando into the MindForce skill tree. The (damage) side of the MindForce professions already have two Combat category skill unlocks (Ranged Damage Assessment and Wounding), while the (Hit) side has no Combat category skill unlocks at all.
Solution 3 is honestly the most logical and most beneficial of all 3 solutions. Not only does it offer to give the HP that the MindForce user is lacking, but it also helps balance out the (hit) with the (damage) side of the profession, since the majority of players with high MindForce skills are substantially higher in (damage) profession than they are in (hit), this would help close the gap.

Even just reading the descriptions of the skills themselves, they seem highly appropriate to be integrated into the MindForce professional skill tree.

Coolness: "Coolness is a measure of how well you perform while under duress."

Combat Sense: "Combat Sense is a familiarity with combat that allows you to successfully deal with combat situations."

Commando: "Commando is the ability to use extreme combat skills reserved for true combat veterans."

Thanks for the read.

Very respectfully,

Captain Jack
 

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Yes, absolutely, I agree with solution 3 as a minimum.
 

Darth Revan

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While they are at it, add in some mindforce chip BP's please, it's silly that we cannot craft these.
 

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Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.

It has always been the case that skilling across different professions has been the way to get the most HP gains, and that's all that's happening here.

The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.
 

Rock Stone

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Make The damn ammo work right, and quit using UA first. :dunce:
Ill never use this.
TT it All!

Rock
 

Darth Revan

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Make The damn ammo work right, and quit using UA first. :dunce:
Ill never use this.
TT it All!

Rock
Whats wrong with the ammo?
Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
Same with mining, UA then probes.

Or is there some other issue?
 

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Whats wrong with the ammo?
Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
Same with mining, UA then probes.

Or is there some other issue?
I did read OP very quickly so not sure if this is on topic, but just want to say that indeed this (also) has been asked many times.

For many reason, every weapon/item SHOULD USE their default ammo FIRST.
And UA only after.

This is so much more logical.

For example it would allow to manage how much ammo we want to use for this or that tool during a run.
That is just impossible when each of your tool will use the same UA first.

Oh wait, am I talking about logic to MA..?
I'm afraid I'm already wasting my time.. :rolleyes:


A Logician. :tiphat:
 

kingofaces

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Whats wrong with the ammo?
Doesn't it use UA first, then synthetic?
Which is the way weapons work, UA then Ammo.
Same with mining, UA then probes.

Or is there some other issue?
In mining, probes are used first. It helps for tracking costs when you use UA for hunting instead in that case. I do wish we had a toggle that let us choose which gets used first. Then I could switch it up and still be able to take out a stray mob without needing to use UA if I was wanting to use it for mining instead.
 
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Legends

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Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.

It has always been the case that skilling across different professions has been the way to get the most HP gains, and that's all that's happening here.

The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.
Also very true.

Every system in a video game is usually some form of Rock-Paper-Scissors. It makes sense that one should look over all of the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon category and choose carefully.

However it seems that the advantages are not very much, e.g. Melee doesn't require ammo, but when you look at your cost to kill, it's basically the same so who cares right? I think the way things are now, melee could be overhauled so that the average melee weapon has approximately 10% higher efficiency than the average gun (look at the ArMatrix series and you'll see this is not currently the case), since the melee hunter has to fight up close and generally has higher defensive costs, and since those are only compensated for at a rate of ~95%, it will pull down a melee hunter's long-term returns from the expected 97%+, which will add up to a lot over time.

So if melee gives more health, guns give you range (lower defensive costs in general), what does MindForce have as a distinct advantage? Mindforce is really similar to guns; It also has range, it can use TT ammo now, within the main category, you can specialize into sub-categories (Laser, BLP, Plasma, Gauss, which further break down into Carbines/Rifles and Handguns/Pistols. Mindforce breaks down into 3 main categories: Electro, Pyro and Cryo, 2 of which further break down...) which each has benefits and drawbacks, but you somehow end up with a lot less health than guns when specializing in Mindforce... I don't get what the advantage of using Mindforce is.

The Rock-Paper-Scissors proposition for the major weapon categories should probably look something like this:

Category
Defensive​
Offensive​
Costs​
Versatility​
Efficiency​
Skilling​
Melee
X
-
-
-
Guns
-
-
X
-
MF
-
-
X
-

X means all things considered, you are at a disadvantage
means all things considered, you are at an advantage
- means has no distinct advantage or disadvantage

It may not look like it at first glance but this table is very well balanced, there's something there for any strategy or play style and a drawback for each, the rest being neutral. For example, if you want to go cheap, you go guns, if you want a wider range of options and versatility in your hunting and weapons, you go Mindforce, if you want higher DPS or higher base Efficiency, you go melee...

For the Defensive column, consider your exposure to the mob's attacks and your overall Defensive costs while hunting.

For the Offensive column, consider the DPS for a given level.

For the Costs column, consider the availability of weapons, how long they last before breaking, their drop-rate, markup, etc...

For the Versatility column, consider the number of available types of weapons, the variety of specializations available, etc...

For the Efficiency column, consider the average Efficiency rating of weapons and DPP (though DPP is different than Efficiency, it is somewhat tied to it)

For the Skilling column, consider how easy it is to skill up these weapons, what side-skills can be gotten along the way, opportunities for specialization within that skill tree, etc...

Note that this is related to the big picture of that weapon category. It can be a bit dizzying to try to work out the details of this because within each weapon category you have sub-categories with each their own benefits and drawbacks. For example, since this thread is about Mindforce, here's how the sub-categories of MF Attack breaks down:

Balance between Damage, Speed and Range:


D = Damage (per hit).
S = Speed (uses per minute).
R = Range (in meters).

Each gauge goes from 0 to 100.
The chips used for this diagram are Nanochip IV (L)s.
So, circling back to what Oleg said, the only distinct 'advantage' I see right now for Mindforce is that every Attack chip that you skill in does have an AoE chip available (Strike version) which you can use right away, whereas for Guns, this is a separate specialization that you must skill from bottom.

Are there other advantages I'm not aware of?

Legends
 
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Captain Jack

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Different professions have different advantages and disadvantages, and that's how it should be. Mindforce has some advantages that other combat types don't. I don't see any need to change the profession, and I don't think making everything more generic and homogeneous is a good way forward.
Unless I'm missing something (entirely possible) the only advantages offensive MindForce currently offers are the Damage over Time and a run speed debuff.
The damage over time is a wonderful advantage, although it is also not unique to MindForce (as it is available with BLP rifle on flame throwers).
The run speed debuff is only available on one low-DPS chip and is so short lived that it expires before you could get a shot off with a different weapon, so hardly an advantage.
The "melee mindforce" buff in one specific Mayhem instance could be viewed as an "advantage", but the lack of range so characteristic of MindForce weapons eliminates any actual advantage to be had there.

That being said, there is significant room for improvement here. For example, they could make all Combustive chips have a damage over time option. All Cryogenic chips could have a run speed debuff. All Electrokinetic chips could have a reload speed debuff inflicted on the target, etc.
If MindArk were to expand the advantages to MindForce then I would agree it would not be necessary to level the playing field. But as it stands the advantages offered by MindForce are far outweighed by the advantages offered by other professions. Melee has lifesteal amps and massive HP gains. Ranged weaponry give HP on their primary skills and give the option for long ranged weaponry. The absolute longest range options on MindForce on any chips that still drop consistently are less than half of what is available in the ranged professions.

At present, the only real advantage to offensive MindForce is for damage over time from Arsonistic chips (which are more often paired with non-MindForce weapons anyways) or the short-lived HP boost gained from skilling previously low level MindForce up to the 5K Force Merge level. By that point all your other MindForce side skills will be so high they will progress too slowly to be worth continuing, and most players will return to other weapon styles until their HP gains slow down sufficiently to be worth pursuing MindForce again which, at present time, appears to be greater than level 150

The main thing that could be improved for mindforce is the availability of weapons. Even at Level 40 it gets hard to source weapons to match your level, at 60 it's near impossible, and beyond 70 the weapons simply don't exist. To some extent that is because people TT them due to perceived lack of demand, but it's also due to drop rate.

I'll definitely agree with that. I do think that Raven's previous solution is the answer though. Add MindForce ArMatrix blueprints to the mix and the problem is solved.
 

Captain Jack

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the only distinct 'advantage' I see right now for Mindforce is that every Attack chip that you skill in does have an AoE chip available (Strike version)
Unfortunately the strike chips do not appear to drop anymore - and if they do it is rare enough that they are not a viable weapon option. Consequently I excluded them from the advantages stated above.
 

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Unfortunately the strike chips do not appear to drop anymore - and if they do it is rare enough that they are not a viable weapon option. Consequently I excluded them from the advantages stated above.
Interesting, MA must be planning on going a different way with Mindforce then....
 

Captain Jack

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Interesting, MA must be planning on going a different way with Mindforce then....
Truthfully it doesn't seem they are planning anything at all. FEN chips were the most recent update and they are pretty generic, no special abilities or "advantages" beyond that of a pistol.
 

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You forgot something, with mindforce you can unlock intuition (lvl 80) really easy and it's what i did.

I stopped mf because with my lvl 87 cryo and 75 blp sniper, i'm in cat 8 for mayhem but there is no cryo chip above 60 to help me.
Before change everything, they should:
- Add armatrix mindforce chip who could be crafted by bp
- Add amp for each element (cryo, pyro, elec) not only for kinetic (those amp could add effect like slow, decrease regen or something like that)
- Add mindforce chip above lvl 60 (why put ingame neopsion for chip lvl 100 and above if there is no chip for?)

I think also mindforce could be a way to add buff to player to complete with pills.

Just what i think.

Leya
 
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Lovely Bella

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You forgot something, with mindforce you can unlock intuition (lvl 80) really easy and it's what i did.

I stopped mf because with my lvl 87 cryo and 75 blp sniper, i'm in cat 8 for mayhem but there is no cryo chip above 60 to help me.
Before change everything, they should:
- Add armatrix mind force chip who could be crafted by bp
- Add amp for each element (cryo, pyro, elec) not only for kinetic (those amp could add effect like slow, decrease regen or something like that)
- Add mindforce chip above lvl 60 (why put ingame neopsion for chip lvl 100 and above if there is no chip for?)

I think also mindforce could be a way to add buff to player to complete with pills.

Just what i think.

Leya

Leya good suggestions, as for skills gains it ok we dont need to change anything there
 

Ludvig|MindArk

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Thank you for the constructive feedback, Cap'n (and everyone else who has posted since)! I've forwarded the thread/suggestions to the dev team to look at. We of course want all the main combat types to be viable and fun to use.
 

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Thank you for the constructive feedback, Cap'n (and everyone else who has posted since)! I've forwarded the thread/suggestions to the dev team to look at. We of course want all the main combat types to be viable and fun to use.
Nice to hear :yay::yay::yay:
 

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I did read OP very quickly so not sure if this is on topic, but just want to say that indeed this (also) has been asked many times.

For many reason, every weapon/item SHOULD USE their default ammo FIRST.
And UA only after.

This is so much more logical.
A Logician. :tiphat:
perhaps,
on the other hand some hunters prefer to use all of the UA first, since it cannot be put back into the tt, and regular ammo can
 

forgo

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I disagree. I spent 7 years getting to level 100 in blp, and 2 years for level 120 in pyro. (80 in elec and cryo without really trying)

IF anything MF skills a bit too fast.....All of my MF skills are in excess now.

Not to mention intuition is an amazing game changing skill, which is now easy to get and skill with MF. And no, I did not unlock intuition with the fen chip, it was done prior with (L) chips in about a year.
 
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jetsina

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We of course want all the main combat types to be viable and fun to use.
Thanks for the appearance here to show you are reading. Can you ask the team to look at space too, please, especially the occassional unwanted shot bug (which costs ped becasue space is pvp), better looting options of mobs in space and better loot pill range. Ty.
I guess the on-topic part would be to ask if we can soon use something like MF on space mobs too, not only use of ship guns?
 

~ Cirrus ~

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perhaps,
on the other hand some hunters prefer to use all of the UA first, since it cannot be put back into the tt, and regular ammo can
If you would want to use all shrap first, then you would just DON'T buy ammo.. :)
Or you could put your ammo inside a vehicle or a container.

If all items would use their default ammo first, then every situation would be possible, use BLP ammo for your gun, and shrapnel for your laser for example.

Or ammo for guns and shrap for heal chip only. (you could easily see how much you used for weapon and for heal)

Whith items using default ammo first you could do whatever you want.
With items using shrap first, you can't choose what to use whith this or that, you have no other choice than using shrap for everything or nothing.
 

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Comparing this to other games, the ‘wizard’ generally has lower hit points but deals higher damage than most others.
I guess this could make sense if there were 120 dps mindforce chips.
Until then, it basically doesn’t make sense, like much of entropia.
 

Captain Jack

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Thank you for the constructive feedback, Cap'n (and everyone else who has posted since)! I've forwarded the thread/suggestions to the dev team to look at. We of course want all the main combat types to be viable and fun to use.
Thank you! That is much appreciated.


I disagree. I spent 7 years getting to level 100 in blp, and 2 years for level 120 in pyro. (80 in elec and cryo without really trying)

IF anything MF skills a bit too fast.....All of my MF skills are in excess now.

Not to mention intuition is an amazing game changing skill, which is now easy to get and skill with MF. And no, I did not unlock intuition with the fen chip, it was done prior with (L) chips in about a year.
That's because 50% of your profession is banked on the primary skill (pyrokinesis in your case), causing the profession to rise quickly while HP and auxiliary skills fall behind.

Comparing this to other games, the ‘wizard’ generally has lower hit points but deals higher damage than most others.
I guess this could make sense if there were 120 dps mindforce chips.
Until then, it basically doesn’t make sense, like much of entropia.
Completely agreed. If MindForce offered a significant DPS advantage then it would totally make sense for the HP to lag behind. But as stated, it doesn't.
 

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I disagree. I spent 7 years getting to level 100 in blp, and 2 years for level 120 in pyro. (80 in elec and cryo without really trying)

IF anything MF skills a bit too fast.....All of my MF skills are in excess now.

Not to mention intuition is an amazing game changing skill, which is now easy to get and skill with MF. And no, I did not unlock intuition with the fen chip, it was done prior with (L) chips in about a year.
That what i experinced too. I was only using Arso chip as tagger and managed to get over lvl90+ in Pyro. I think that MF skills were flying MUCH faster than other skill to a degree i thought they were bugged. This was over 3years ago thu... Think the case is same unless MA changed.
 

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TL;DR, intended for MindArk's Dev team:

* Add Armatrix Mindforce chips L10-L110
* Add enough Neopsion in loot so this isn't a constraint (or better: blueprints!)
* Remake the blueprint recipes for MF amps/make ingredients drop alot more. Currently amp are way too expensive to use for Heavy grinding (>1 % cost of the hunt just from the amp's MU) , and no good UL amps around below 5k MU.
* Rebalance the main MF skill so it contributes less to hit and damage. Redistribute skills to support skills + coolness, combat sense and commando (if you're smart, make the three latter skills not unlockable by MF, but still skillable. (When throwing acid you need to be cool!)
* Add to the loot pool a few high level chips (L50+) with buff/debuff effects that are actually useful. These could be rare drops. =Fun to skill up and to use these chips, as well as SOME tactical play (not just F F F F F F F F F ad nauseam)
* Make sure synthetic ME is used before Universal Ammo

Wishlist:
* Remove Decoy Dispenser from TT. Add long range Mindforce chip "Telepathy", a chip that disturbes the mob's brain Waves/Circuits and makes it stop running/change target/attack another mob depending on mindforce Level and chip possibility.
 
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True Juan

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Since I started playing this game it is getting more and more generic... Lets make it even more generic...

Why even have different weapon types. I would remove all and just create weapon named ranged and meele. Lets also have just one skill type - COMBAT...

Why cant some things just be different? Have a different purpose? Its necessary to have more variability. Game is really becoming generic...

All weapontypes should have pros and cons. Every update its getting more generic and simplified...
 

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Well, the whole point of this thread is making MF a viable main combat profession.

MF already stands out with the arson chips, but not much more at the moment. And even less in the earlier days of EU/PE (expensive chips with expensive/useless mind essence ammo).

In the current meta, rifle is the only sensible combat profession if you want to Excel in Mayhem. Rifle offers higher DPS and better range.

Rifle also the fastest profession to skill (except MF - but MF doesn't need skilling above L65 to max out all chips) due to it's range and availability of high damage amps (Mayhem amps spesifically, but also Dante, Mod evil, armatrix amps etc.). Range also reduces defense costs.

In short, for 99 % of player base, Melee is good for HP (and early on - strength), nothing more, Just like MF (i.e.not counting the FEN 25k ped chips, FEN 20k ped amps and 100k ped unique blade With 90+ eff.)

Some people find it more FUN to use melee and MF, but that's not the point. Making MF better won't make this game more generic - and there's plenty opportunity to make buff/debuff chips, AoE chips etc. MA could easily mix Things up With MF - they could for instance make Level requirements for MF chips tied to Psyche and Intelligence instead of Level (or both) to make it more interesting/stand out.
 

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I play mostly with Cryo chips, what bothers me most is that with all the daily tokens I collect I cannot spend it on MF items. I'm solving it by skilling BLP pistols to unlock Coolness, but im collecting more than I spend.

On the other hand, as someone else mentioned too, whats the point of having MF implants for chips up to level 120 but all chips are for level 60 max?

I really like playing with mindforce and I would love to see it becomming a profession that can be as good as the conventional ranged weapons.
 

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We also need mobs that have a mindforce attack, so that the relevant defence profession is Jammer, rather than Evader and Dodger. I've been saying this ever since we had the Jammer prof, years ago now, and it still hasn't happened. Mind Reavers should have had this from the start.
 

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We also need mobs that have a mindforce attack, so that the relevant defence profession is Jammer, rather than Evader and Dodger. I've been saying this ever since we had the Jammer prof, years ago now, and it still hasn't happened. Mind Reavers should have had this from the start.
Yes, this would be very much appreciated.
 
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