FYI: Return in Shared Loot/Team Hunting is based on Cost+Efficiency+Looter Prof, not just Cost

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
Me and a friend teamed up and shot at Puny Creatures until we encountered one where one of us had a hit evaded, and then had the other deal the killing the blow, then compared our ratio of cost:return, and the result was pretty clear, shared loot/team hunting environments under the new changes perform and are balanced in the same exact way as solo hunting in terms of return rates.

After the first attempt we tried two more just to see, mixing up the order in terms of who was shooting first/tanking the mob, etc.

Neither of us wore armor or used healing tools. Neither of us used any sort of enhancers or attachments or buffs.

Weapon A: Isis LR32 Modified, Cost: 16.413 PEC, 60.2% Efficiency

Weapon B: A-3 Justifier Mk.II Improved, Cost: 15.255 PEC, 90.4% Efficiency


Test A:

Return: 31.16, Cost: 16.413

189.8%

Return: 29.94, Cost: 15.255

196.2%

Test B:

Return: 7.96, Cost: 16.413

48.4%

Return: 7.65, Cost: 15.255

50.1%

Test C:

Return: 28.54, Cost: 16.413

173.8%

Return: 27.41, Cost: 15.255

179.6%


In each test, the 90.4% Efficiency imk2 received about 3.3% more loot than the 60.2% Efficiency mod lr32, which seems to be a bit more than what would be expected from the 0-7% return rate difference spoken of by MA when they introduced Loot 2.0, meaning that the Efficiency scale could be non-linear but, more likely, it is the result of my friend's Looter profession being significantly higher than my own, which affects return rates as well according to MA, which would mean there is a fairly good way of testing the impact of looter professions if you assume the 0-7% return rate thing is in fact linear, and also that looter professions are being calculated for individual players in shared loot/team hunting scenarios, adding to the fairness/likeness to solo hunting.

Thanks for reading, I hope people find this information helpful.


edit: Make sure to continue reading for useful posts on Looter Professions' impact on return rates.
 
Last edited:

Hijacker27

Marauder
Joined
May 14, 2007
Posts
5,011
Location
Mississauaga Ontario, Canada
Society
Payn-Inc
Avatar Name
hijacker Hijacker27 inferno
+rep for actually doing tests and finding out how it works before whining like all those ninnies that just decided to bitch about their uber loot 2.0 shared loot leeching weapons became worthless in the new system!
 

jetsina

Stalker
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Posts
1,632
Thanks for reading, I hope people find this information helpful.
My understanding is that the 7% difference is between zero skill on a weap and maxed skill, so should not be part of a difference on your test if both of you are maxed on your weaps. The efficiency difference of the weap stats themselves makes a difference in loot composition, so is not relevant for sharing shrapnel loot.

I also assume it was a straight shrap share you each got, and not a split of muscle oil or whatever?

My take on the difference is indeed the looter professions. Would you mind giving us more details on how far apart the two of you are? (I fully respect if you don't wish to share that, however).

Thanks for sharing the test :)

Edit: on punies I should add you are so into high cost that I'd only expect shrap loot anyway.
It also looks like overkill on the kill shot is fully counted as you swapped around but the shares stayed virtually the same relative to 100%. Maybe a few more examples and who killed would nail this for sure?
 
Last edited:

Slyk

Old Alpha
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Posts
819
Avatar Name
Havenn Slyk Ragnarok
My understanding is that the 7% difference is between zero skill on a weap and maxed skill
That is not true, MA stated there is a 7% variance between 0-100% efficiency. Having 0-100% skill in using an item would be the difference between a 10% loss to 'miss' and none. AKA if you used a 0% eff weapon that you were 0% maxed on(hit), you would have 10% worse returns on than someone who was 100% maxed on that same weapon & 17% worse return than someone who is 100% maxed on a 100% eff weapon.

Though this post also shows that looter profs clearly do have some influence, so there is additional math at play....but concerning just the Eff%, the above should be how it works according to MA and item descriptions (0/10 HA vs 10/10 HA)
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
My understanding is that the 7% difference is between zero skill on a weap and maxed skill, so should not be part of a difference on your test if both of you are maxed on your weaps. The efficiency difference of the weap stats themselves makes a difference in loot composition, so is not relevant for sharing shrapnel loot.

I also assume it was a straight shrap share you each got, and not a split of muscle oil or whatever?

My take on the difference is indeed the looter professions. Would you mind giving us more details on how far apart the two of you are? (I fully respect if you don't wish to share that, however).

Thanks for sharing the test :)
Your first paragraph is completely incorrect, I recommend re-reading these two posts:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298019-Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2-0


https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298429-Developer-Notes-12-Loot-2-0-Follow-Up

Efficiency is tied to return rate at, according to MA, a different of 0-7% between 0-100% efficiency.

Loot composition is tied to DPP.

All pre-2.0 weapons have DPP/Efficiency tied together, but they are not the same thing.

Being unmaxed in Dmg is irrelevant for return rate as loot is calculated on cost and efficiency, however it will hurt your loot composition by increasing kill cost (lowering DPP)

Being unmaxed in Hit, however, will hurt your return rate because unmaxed HA (Hit Ability) results in Skill Misses which go into the Bonus Loot Pool (seen in double shrap loots)

As for the makeup of the loot, yeah, it was 100% shrapnel in the three tests, and my Animal Looter is 25.5 while his is 41.35.
 

Haruto Rat

Elite
Joined
Jul 9, 2013
Posts
3,341
Society
fode et fuge
Avatar Name
Cunning Haruto Rat
Me and a friend teamed up and shot at Puny Creatures until we encountered one where one of us missed, and then had the other deal the killing the blow, then compared our ratio of cost:return, and the result was pretty clear, shared loot/team hunting environments under the new changes perform and are balanced in the same exact way as solo hunting in terms of return rates.
I corroborate. We accidentally performed the same test while one-shotting punies (10 HP shy vixens) with Kinetic Nanochip II (L) (11.0-22.0), and the loot was split exactly in half - both the authors of the evaded shot and the killing shot got the same amount of shrap.
 

Xen

Mutated
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Posts
10,121
Society
Payn-Inc
Avatar Name
Xendar Xen Xal
I don't understand this, your cost is the same in every test, mob evades/dodges count for cost. Your cost is not just the one that does the damage. So I don't think this test shows anything...
 

Slyk

Old Alpha
Joined
Sep 6, 2016
Posts
819
Avatar Name
Havenn Slyk Ragnarok
I don't understand this, your cost is the same in every test, mob evades/dodges count for cost. Your cost is not just the one that does the damage. So I don't think this test shows anything...
Or they prove you can kill 3 mobs without any dodges :)
 

Darth Revan

Prowler
Joined
May 10, 2016
Posts
1,122
Location
Canada
Society
Love Craft Academy
Avatar Name
Darth Reven Reborn
Loot return may work....however loot composition does not. Lower dpp weapons will get more items in teams than they would solo hunting.
So essentially there is still an issue with shared hunting.
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
Some additional testing based on same weapon same cost on mobs in team hunting/shared loot with varying Animal Looter levels:

A: 25.5

B: 41.35

C: 2.2


Test 1: A vs B

[Team]: A received [Shrapnel] (3055).
[Team]: B received [Shrapnel] (3090).

B received 1.14% more loot than A

Test 2: B vs C

[Team]: C received [Shrapnel] (6378).
[Team]: B received [Shrapnel] (6564).

B received 2.91% more loot than C

These tests show a very clear and very visible impact on return rates based directly on Looter Professions :thumbup:
 
Last edited:

Angel O2 Mercer

Marauder
Joined
Mar 1, 2010
Posts
6,112
Location
Spain
Society
Rangers
Avatar Name
Angel O2 Mercer
Loot return may work....however loot composition does not. Lower dpp weapons will get more items in teams than they would solo hunting.
So essentially there is still an issue with shared hunting.
Proof? test? data? source? That's precisely what this thread is about.
 

jetsina

Stalker
Joined
Sep 28, 2010
Posts
1,632
Your first paragraph is completely incorrect, I recommend re-reading these two posts:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298019-Developer-Notes-11-Loot-2-0


https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?298429-Developer-Notes-12-Loot-2-0-Follow-Up

...
As for the makeup of the loot, yeah, it was 100% shrapnel in the three tests, and my Animal Looter is 25.5 while his is 41.35.
Thank you for quickly, politely and clearly showing me I was wrong. The bit that clearly shows loot value being affected is: "The Efficiency parameter is a relatively small component in loot calculations (no more than 7% of total loot value)."
..and thanks for the additional looter skill info as well. Very cool :cool:
Edit: and ty Slyk too!
 
Last edited:

Suza

Old
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
78
Avatar Name
Suza Suze Rider
I am a bit confused by your description of your test and the posted results. If one of you was evaded and the the other killed it, the cost should be the same for every kill as evades add to the input, therefore 31.668 pec per test.

Did both of you receive loot or only the one who killed it?
 

Darth Revan

Prowler
Joined
May 10, 2016
Posts
1,122
Location
Canada
Society
Love Craft Academy
Avatar Name
Darth Reven Reborn
Proof? test? data? source? That's precisely what this thread is about.
Already tested and gave data in another thread somewhere, feel free to do your own testing though.
This thread doesn't test loot composition, only tt return, so just pointing out that its not all sunshine and rainbows.
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
I am a bit confused by your description of your test and the posted results. If one of you was evaded and the the other killed it, the cost should be the same for every kill as evades add to the input, therefore 31.668 pec per test.

Did both of you receive loot or only the one who killed it?
We both received loot...
 

Evey

Stalker
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Posts
2,129
Society
ROUA
Avatar Name
Evey Eve Everglades
Shouldn't the first test be done by two avatars of same looter prof? Because in the 3.3% you have the looter prof advantage AND the higher eff. Or, in your additional test with 2 similar cost weapons, the difference being 1.4%, you can say the difference in return as a result of efficiency difference is ~ 2%?
 

Suza

Old
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
78
Avatar Name
Suza Suze Rider
Shouldn't the first test be done by two avatars of same looter prof? Because in the 3.3% you have the looter prof advantage AND the higher eff. Or, in your additional test with 2 similar cost weapons, the difference being 1.4%, you can say the difference in return as a result of efficiency difference is ~ 2%?
They could also do the test again by swapping weapons. The person with the lower looter skill should then get a slightly higher return (est .4-.5%).
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
Shouldn't the first test be done by two avatars of same looter prof? Because in the 3.3% you have the looter prof advantage AND the higher eff. Or, in your additional test with 2 similar cost weapons, the difference being 1.4%, you can say the difference in return as a result of efficiency difference is ~ 2%?
As you can see in the post that followed, we repeated the test with these two avatars using the same number of hits with the same weapon with the same efficiency and also encountered a difference in return rate there, however, lower, meaning that that difference was based entirely on Looter Profession while the other difference was based on both Looter Profession as well as Efficiency.

There is something noteworthy to mention here though, since it is possible the test could have been skewed in the possibility that Efficiency's effect on loot return is non-linear, however, given that the first test yielded a ~3.3% difference and the second test yielded a ~1.14% difference we can see that:

3.3-1.14 = 2.16

14% efficiency = roughly 1% return rate if linear

2.16*14= 30.24

difference between mod lr32 and imk2 in efficiency = ~30.2%

This pretty much proves that the Efficiency number does exactly what they said it does without any trickery and follows a linear scaling.

Of course, the numbers are slightly off, but that's to be expected since they weren't 1 million shrapnel loots, and Efficiency only goes to one decimal point.

I think this info is very useful, and I think it would be great to further test the difference in return rate this way between avatars with various Looter levels to see exactly what kind of impact on return rate it can have and at what kind of level the impact starts to lessen. :)
 
Last edited:

GoNi

Slayer
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Posts
7,564
Location
Calypso, Sakura City
Society
freelancer
Avatar Name
Gloria GoNi Nicestyle
To sumurize these results:

avoid hunting with players that have better efficency
avoid hunting with players that have higher looter proffessions

Impact:
Even more solo activity than we actually have, as you rarly will find other players that have exactly your efficence + your looter skills :)

Well grinding solo is what most do anyways.
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
To sumurize these results:

avoid hunting with players that have better efficency
avoid hunting with players that have higher looter proffessions

Impact:
Even more solo activity than we actually have, as you rarly will find other players that have exactly your efficence + your looter skills :)

Well grinding solo is what most do anyways.
No, that conclusion is entirely incorrect...

The conclusion is that loot is split based directly on how much loot you generated with your Cost, Efficiency, and Looter Profession also factored in. Your performance and results in Solo hunting and Team/Shared hunting should now be exactly the same, apart from a bit of added randomness caused by Item Split.

These results aren't caused by leeching, they're caused by players being given their share of the loot based on their Cost after Efficiency and Looter Professions taken into account.
 

Evey

Stalker
Joined
Oct 7, 2006
Posts
2,129
Society
ROUA
Avatar Name
Evey Eve Everglades
To sumurize these results:

avoid hunting with players that have better efficency
avoid hunting with players that have higher looter proffessions

Impact:
Even more solo activity than we actually have, as you rarly will find other players that have exactly your efficence + your looter skills :)

Well grinding solo is what most do anyways.
No, actually, your loot in TT will not be influenced by your team mate's efficiency or loot level. It can actually have a positive impact in your hunt by looting more quality stuff.
 

bigPaul

Guardian
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Posts
202
Avatar Name
Paul Ray Spinn
Being unmaxed in Dmg is irrelevant for return rate as loot is calculated on cost and efficiency, however it will hurt your loot composition by increasing kill cost (lowering DPP)

Being unmaxed in Hit, however, will hurt your return rate because unmaxed HA (Hit Ability) results in Skill Misses which go into the Bonus Loot Pool (seen in double shrap loots)

Hi Darkaruki, that's interesting (because I wasn't sure about unmaxed damage).

Also do you know if overamping (example: using an A106 amp on a small weapon) has a negative effect on the return rate ?


Thanks ,
Paul
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
Hi Darkaruki, that's interesting (because I wasn't sure about unmaxed damage).

Also do you know if overamping (example: using an A106 amp on a small weapon) has a negative effect on the return rate ?


Thanks ,
Paul
It won't negatively affect your return rate but it will hurt your loot composition by adding a ton of unnecessary costs, and even if it might look like it's better due to the higher Efficiency rating, that is misleading because the efficiency is only going up relative to the useless costs you're adding, which I can pretty much guarantee will not be returned at ≥100% long term return, so you will just be killing mobs at a greater cost and damaging your loot composition at no benefit if you overamp, just as with hunting in unmaxed (Dmg).

This also applies to Scopes and Sights, but if you think they do something, which I'm not entirely sure they do(excluding the crit ones), feel free to use them.
 

Suza

Old
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
78
Avatar Name
Suza Suze Rider
To sumurize these results:

avoid hunting with players that have better efficency
avoid hunting with players that have higher looter proffessions

Impact:
Even more solo activity than we actually have, as you rarly will find other players that have exactly your efficence + your looter skills :)

Well grinding solo is what most do anyways.
There is no real evidence to prove this as the calculations are only known to the devs.

While you may be correct that the calculation runs (input(player a)+input(player b))*mob multiplier = loot(out), loot(player a) = loot(out)*((player a(looter %)+(player a(eff %)/(player a(looter %)+(player a(eff %)+(player b(looter %)+(player a(eff %), loot(player b) = loot(out)*((player b(looter %)+(player b(eff %)/(player a(looter %)+(player a(eff %)+(player b(looter %)+(player a(eff %) which awards a higher % of generated loot to the more efficient/skilled player.

It is also possible that the calculation is player a(loot)= input(player a) * mob multiplier * (1+(player a(looter %)+(player a(eff %)), player b(loot)= input(player b) * mob multiplier * (1+(player b(looter %)+(player b(eff %)).

If player a were awarded say 1% from looter skill and 1% from efficiency while player b had 2% from looter skill and 3% from efficiency and both spent 10 ped ammo on a 2x multiplier mob you would either have:

(10 + 10)*2 = 40 ped total loot split 19.7101 (102/207) to player a and 20.2899 (105/207) to player b.

or

(10*2) = 20*1.02 = 20.4 to player a and (10*2) = 20*1.05 = 21 to player b.

I tend to believe the latter is the case otherwise the eff and looter skills would only benefit you in a team setting and do nothing solo, which runs contrary to the posted info on them.

You also have the consideration that player b's higher DPP has an effect on the loot composition, so the minor loss in the former calculation may be more than made up from higher MU loot overall.
 

M Rufen Power

Marauder
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Posts
5,726
Location
UK - London
Society
How To Survive
Avatar Name
Mark Rufen Power
This also applies to Scopes and Sights, but if you think they do something, which I'm not entirely sure they do(excluding the crit ones), feel free to use them.
What would you suppose would happen if I were to use TT Pistol + ZX amp + Longreach 4 + Bullseye 8 x2? The reason I give this example is that the TT+ZX combo is quite eco 2.981 DPP with an efficiency of 65.2%. However, due to its low-level nature, would it be that beneficial to increase the efficiency to a possible 80%? Higher TT returns, however, this seems counter-intuitive considering the DPP is taking a sacrifice, so less MU loot, more TT gains? I am quite confused on how to balance the two aspects. Could use some help on answering this dilemma for me, cheers. In my head, I am saying add them, but my gut is screaming at me telling me don't do it! :laugh:. What if I were able to get 2 ZX Rod's + ZX Eagle Eye, would it make a difference at all?
 
Last edited:

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
What would you suppose would happen if I were to use TT Pistol + ZX amp + Longreach 4 + Bullseye 8 x2? The reason I give this example is that the TT+ZX combo is quite eco 2.981 DPP with an efficiency of 65.2%. However, due to its low-level nature, would it be that beneficial to increase the efficiency to a possible 80%? Higher TT returns, however, this seems counter-intuitive considering the DPP is taking a sacrifice, so less MU loot, more TT gains? I am quite confused on how to balance the two aspects. Could use some help on answering this dilemma for me, cheers. In my head, I am saying add them, but my gut is screaming at me telling me don't do it! :laugh:. What if I were able to get 2 ZX Rod's + ZX Eagle Eye, would it make a difference at all?
Just read the post I wrote...

They don't add damage, they do add cost, they increase your efficiency relative only to the amount of cost they add, and the cost they add is necessarily returned to you at ≤100% return and the cost they add is necessarily also returned to you as sub-optimal loot (Shrapnel).

Adding them makes no sense unless you think scopes/sights do something, which I'm pretty skeptical about, but if you think they do, that's up to you then depending on what you think they do.
 

Xen

Mutated
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Posts
10,121
Society
Payn-Inc
Avatar Name
Xendar Xen Xal
I don't understand this, your cost is the same in every test, mob evades/dodges count for cost. Your cost is not just the one that does the damage. So I don't think this test shows anything...
I am a bit confused by your description of your test and the posted results. If one of you was evaded and the the other killed it, the cost should be the same for every kill as evades add to the input, therefore 31.668 pec per test.

Did both of you receive loot or only the one who killed it?
No answers?
 

M Rufen Power

Marauder
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Posts
5,726
Location
UK - London
Society
How To Survive
Avatar Name
Mark Rufen Power
Just read the post I wrote...

They don't add damage, they do add cost, they increase your efficiency relative only to the amount of cost they add, and the cost they add is necessarily returned to you at ≤100% return and the cost they add is necessarily also returned to you as sub-optimal loot (Shrapnel).

Adding them makes no sense unless you think scopes/sights do something, which I'm pretty sceptical about, but if you think they do, that's up to you then depending on what you think they do.
Sorry that info must of went over my head. You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Darkaruki again.
 

Darkaruki

Banned
Joined
Jul 8, 2009
Posts
1,797
Location
Sweden
Avatar Name
Formerly "Darkaruki Dorkaruki Kakiro"
No answers?
I have no clue what you're even asking but I did respond to the other person who asked something that made no sense:



We both shoot a mob with two different guns with different efficiency levels.

We both incur costs.

We both receive loot, however, at different return return rates, due to loot split taking into account the Costs AND Efficiency AND Looter Professions of individual players involved in kills.

That is what this thread is about, and that is what the test is looking for, and is what the test proves.
 

Suza

Old
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
78
Avatar Name
Suza Suze Rider
What would you suppose would happen if I were to use TT Pistol + ZX amp + Longreach 4 + Bullseye 8 x2? The reason I give this example is that the TT+ZX combo is quite eco 2.981 DPP with an efficiency of 65.2%. However, due to its low-level nature, would it be that beneficial to increase the efficiency to a possible 80%? Higher TT returns, however, this seems counter-intuitive considering the DPP is taking a sacrifice, so less MU loot, more TT gains? I am quite confused on how to balance the two aspects. Could use some help on answering this dilemma for me, cheers. In my head, I am saying add them, but my gut is screaming at me telling me don't do it! :laugh:. What if I were able to get 2 ZX Rod's + ZX Eagle Eye, would it make a difference at all?
I used those sights/scopes on my Herman ASI-R and got a lot more skill hits than I did with the gun alone. I later used them on a Breer M3a and a full run from full TT on weap to broken cost me an extra 15 ped and the did a run with no sights/scope followed by anothe run with and compared. 1522 skill hits with, 1429 without 1580 with. I also got more points as well, 413.6861 with, 370.7997 without, 452.6652 with.
 
Top