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Question: Should botting & use of macros be allowed?

Kristoliquid said:
Once I was saving peds because I would just dmg the mob to a little more than half and the macro man or botter would kill it for me and I would loot. And I even profited. I did that all night long. In this kind of situation I think it’s ridiculous.
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what you said here was my solution, bots have a weakness, they are not smart, and this stupididty is protected when they are in an insatnce completely cut off from the world, you give players the ability to enter a bots insatnce, the problem resolves itself, every plyer wants to profit, so the legit players have incentive to find stupid bots, becouse they are free money :D
 
Xen said:
I don't know why this needs to continue to be discussed.
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Although this is off topic but seems to be repeated so it's worth stating the obvious. This will continue being discussed as long as it's officially not allowed and there are people who do not cheat. So it's actually a good sign as there are still players who do not cheat.

Xen said:
MA cannot fully condone automated play for public perception reasons.
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This is not quite true. Some members of the public will perceive it as a positive. That's hundred percent guaranteed and some may perceive it as a negative. This category of people I'm not too sure about so would appreciate it if you elaborated on that.

jetsina said:
Possible negative consquence of allowing:

apparently EU is not seen as gambling because of many skill elements integrated into the game. This was some time ago.
It may be that officially allowing bots would counter the argument of skill being used (even if it debatable) - and relying more on luck (or sheer amount of time) for desired outcomes. MA may not want to be too obvious, but still want to secretly see more and more botting.
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Decided to leave this out of the table as botting does not change anything in the loot algorithm.
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
Decided to leave this out of the table as botting does not change anything in the loot algorithm.
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No but if you’re cycling 24/7 as a macro/bot. You have way more lottery tickets to get mu than someone who has to sleep.

Botters don’t miss loot waves (clearly confirmed with mecha lupine event)

Shit some have macro/bot set up JUST to do loot waves.

You know what I had to do? Set a continuous alarm throughout the night, losing sleep if I wanted to get the full benefits of the mecha lupine(or any mu wave)

And when theres a finite amount of resources, then yes, bots/macroers DO negatively effect loot for others as well as the in game economy.
 
Angela Draniie Cloud said:
No but if you’re cycling 24/7 as a macro/bot. You have way more lottery tickets to get mu than someone who has to sleep.

Botters don’t miss loot waves (clearly confirmed with mecha lupine event)

Shit some have macro/bot set up JUST to do loot waves.

You know what I had to do? Set a continuous alarm throughout the night, losing sleep if I wanted to get the full benefits of the mecha lupine(or any mu wave)

And when theres a finite amount of resources, then yes, bots/macroers DO negatively effect loot for others as well as the in game economy.
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This is a different issue. Will add this to the table.
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
Decided to leave this out of the table as botting does not change anything in the loot algorithm.
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i mean even in a game like wow, what do you think if bots go unpinished happens with the currency, it becomes inflated, meaning a normal player wont be able to buy much with the gold he finds, becoouse everything is expensive, due to the bots generating gold all the time :D
 
didn't the new UI resolve this issue?
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
It's not possible to make sense of this opinion without making assumptions. So would appreciate it if you clarified under what circumstances these things would occur. Thanks.
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i think he means, the hunting loots will be lower ergo less stuff on auc. assuming that mining and crafting stay the same. prices would go up.

just look at nanocubes. less low mu stuff to convert thus less nanocubes avaible for ep4 crafters ergo prices go up of nanocubes , the rest will follow.

however if there will be less hunted people need less L stuff ( not that many botters use L stuff i think ) so prices of crafted parts could go down. on the other hand less L items will be lootet ( at least i hope ) so more more demand for crafted items, so this is the big grew area.
 
We are far to down the rabbit hole as far as allowing botting to turn back now.

Removing it would reward the cheater who botted so far as they will have the most skills to sell to new players who want to progress and skilling while botting is not avaliable anymore.

I have hinted before at a possible solution for this, let me know when you guys are ready to discuss it seriously.

It is a snowball effect:

- If low budget depositors (L users) no not see the incentive to buy L gear there is no economic cycle.
- If there is no economic cycle, unL users do not have an argument to the exotic prices of their guns as there is no economy to milk.
- If its common knowledge that unL is the meta, everyone uses unL and there is no economic cycle again.

In a zero sum game its proposterous that there are so many ways to cycle around the game economy to progress the game as a single player... in a RCE game, economic PVP.. now how dumb is that?
If the argument is I want to play single player.. there are plenty better games to do that. If you want to engage in a RCE game you damn well should be prepared to engage with other participants!

Turn the game into a mega cycling project where the only outside input from TTs is ammo and everything else has to be crafted (created from economic cycle).
Link the "gambling" crafting chains to something usefull and needed and make them have a reason to do it. Make it that all loot has to go by the crafting machine for the game to continue.

In an environment like this botting could possibly be "tamed" and not be as harmfull as currently is to the game since they would not be able to rely purely on the TT/repair terminals to progress.

The ideas I put forward so far are as simplitic as the nanocubes solution and work only on the frame of the pile of crap we have at the moment. trying to make something out of nothing in a way. Better more worked out solutions can be found probably if put some tought into it.

If there is something the nanocubes change proved is that this aproach makes sense and that the more confined the cycle of TT/loot is within the game (outside of tt/repair terminals) the more the markups will rise. This can be controled by the developers to not allow prices to go to absurd prices in many ways, but at least brings the economy to a more reasonable and realistic price frame for stuff in a game that is raked at about 5%. Currently its just slots play as the av.MU avaliable is way below the rake price. And this stems from the TT/repair avaliability issue.

Another way to improve cycling of materials, maybe more in UE5 time.
Create a new profession. Building. In field crafting of barricades, outposts. Maybe with new AI for mobs these could make sense along with new game mechanics.
Maybe a bit like the fort lahar bots attacks missions etc. Build fortifications to stop the bots from reaching the fort.
Even for PVP purposes. Maybe a bit like fortnite/rust mechanics.

The secret will always be in making the game rely as little as possible on tt/repair terminals and much, much more in the crafting profession to pick up the generated loot and tranform it in somthing actually needed for the game to move forward.

Yeah its offtopic about the botting issue but we discussed this to many times. Its time to find solutions to move forward. Not reinvent the wheel!
 
Subject: human skills that still make a difference.
The Mind said:
Honestly i cant think of any.

Overkill is compensated.
Armor is compensated (+leeching).
0 targeting and aiming value.

Whats left?
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:). Areas of the main world outside instances do still have bits where I think human skill counts, but I think the time advantage of hrs per day, plus automatically being around for waves instead of planning them in, are a massive advantage overall compared to most playstyles I think.
So yes, I pretty much have to agree.
 
A personal reflection..I've stopped trying to compete in the various Mayhams for Rare/M tokens, I take out pills instead..using when I log in and hunt for fun !! I've realized that I can't compete against 24/7 bots/macroplayers in terms of more even loot and items/Rare tokens ! Not everyone can hunt for 5 hour sessions around the clock! and it's quite disheartening to see/hear about all the Rare Token being looted by avatars who are afk ! It is Mind Ark that sets the rules and as long as I cannot compete on the same terms, I choose not to participate !! and since the loot will be very concentrated to Mayham mobs, there won't be much hunting for me during Mayham.

Regards!Flash
 
Flash said:
A personal reflection..I've stopped trying to compete in the various Mayhams for Rare/M tokens, I take out pills instead..using when I log in and hunt for fun !! I've realized that I can't compete against 24/7 bots/macroplayers in terms of more even loot and items/Rare tokens ! Not everyone can hunt for 5 hour sessions around the clock! and it's quite disheartening to see/hear about all the Rare Token being looted by avatars who are afk ! It is Mind Ark that sets the rules and as long as I cannot compete on the same terms, I choose not to participate !! and since the loot will be very concentrated to Mayham mobs, there won't be much hunting for me during Mayham.

Regards!Flash
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If there wont be any macro we are going to have 2-3 people playing same account, talking about a top player that used to "play" like this before he quit, nothing will be fair for everyone, so ill say just ignore this and go with the flow.

Personally im happy how it is now, only people that want chances are the ones that have options to have other people access their account, those are the only winners and ofc they will be happy with no macro change.
 
Alina said:
If there wont be any macro we are going to have 2-3 people playing same account, talking about a top player that used to "play" like this before he quit, nothing will be fair for everyone, so ill say just ignore this and go with the flow.

Personally im happy how it is now, only people that want chances are the ones that have options to have other people access their account, those are the only winners and ofc they will be happy with no macro change.
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You forget the fact that multiple people playing on the same account is way easier to regulate and the other fact that you are trusting your whole account to other people.
 
Gopher said:
You forget the fact that multiple people playing on the same account is way easier to regulate and the other fact that you are trusting your whole account to other people.
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Exactly, there's programs that can identify you just by your mouse movement, keystrokes etc.
 
Personally it does not matter because people are already doing it especially in mining. I myself have completely stepped back because of it and play every now and then because i see it kinda pointless when these bots can easy be programmed into something like entropialife looking for markers when to activate.

Its already an issue and has been for years granted the ui change might have set them back a few weeks but it wont take long to reprogram. They are already using or at least used to use radar and when you chase them down they log off before you can grab names in certain places that dont display names in nearby. some of them are quite sophisticated in their implementation.

Question i ask is who is going to fund mu when all the real players are long gone because they cant compete and see any activity as rather pointless exercise unless they can wait around for waves and rush places.
 
Updated upto this point except for the issue/response below.

Killahbee said:
Markup would go up, turnover across the board would take a massive hit
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romi impi said:
i think he means, the hunting loots will be lower ergo less stuff on auc. assuming that mining and crafting stay the same. prices would go up.
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Thanks for explaining romi. Very much appreciated. However, I'm still not certain under what conditions he and yourself are referring to. If I assume he means if botting is allowed since that what this thread is more geared towards then I don't see hunting loots going lower but the opposite hunting loots would be more in abundance since more people will be botting.

If he means botting is not allowed and effectively enforced then that would make more sense. So does he mean that scenario? or some other scenario?
 
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Alina said:
If there wont be any macro we are going to have 2-3 people playing same account, talking about a top player that used to "play" like this before he quit, nothing will be fair for everyone, so ill say just ignore this and go with the flow.

Personally im happy how it is now, only people that want chances are the ones that have options to have other people access their account, those are the only winners and ofc they will be happy with no macro change.
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Hi and thank you for your response to my post ! I think you misunderstood me..I'm not "demanding" any changes, I'm just talking about how I feel about competing against 24/7 players.

You say I should ignore this and go with the flow, do you mean that just because Mind Ark has created a contest that encouraged players to cheat, I should accept this and cheat along? No thanks ! If the function to "auto hunt" was in the game, I would probably use it sometimes! would be a useful function when I have to make more coffee or go to the toilet ;)

After I stopped believing that I will be able to hunt to collect the Rare Token needed for a weapon I want, I bought one. I pay to play and always have been, I play to have fun !

So if my post is to have any other meaning than my view of 24/7 players in various competitions.. it is perhaps that it should be an eye opener for Mind Ark to design a better competition where online players are rewarded !

I'm sorry if my answer floated away a little from the original meaning of the thread !

Regards/Flash
 
It's not the bots. It is the world they made and how it works.

The creatures...

The robots...

NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY BRAINS.

It's an offense to call the kill grind "hunting".

We know where everything is, nothing ever moves around, creatures don't go off into the night & cross breed with each other to make new creatures, they all have basically the same behavior pattern in combat, and when not in combat, what are they doing? Yep...incessantly walking in place with thumbs up their butts unable to ponder the complete lack of purpose contained within their own existence, leaving us to imagine what Boorum society is like prior to mindlessly slaughtering a hundred of them for a few daily tokens.

It's a dead world plagued by static cling, the fear of immorality, moldy wiki, and the lack of beer.

But don't just stop at scripting their actions to make them more life-like. Plug some AI into all the mobs and give them the social abilities needed for us to one day log in to see a bunch of robots attacking the Boorum and probing their dead corpses in an attempt to understand it's anatomy.

We're long beyond eye candy folks. It's been done and it wears out quickly.

Mind candy, and a metric shit ton of it, is what is needed here.

Like...Caperon's with the ability to change the situation in an instant by simply whipping the weapon right out of your hand. Or Atrox that will run away from you in an attempt to lure you into a pack of thirty waiting around the bend.

Nothing about combat in EU forces you to think. It's a mindless grind and it is that very mindlessness that breeds the bots.

To attempt to ban those who do it without addressing the root cause of the problem is the same as putting a band-aid on your jugular after it's been slashed.
 
Gopher said:
You forget the fact that multiple people playing on the same account is way easier to regulate and the other fact that you are trusting your whole account to other people.
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No rule against it though, just that you do so at your own risk.

They would have to change the stance on - a human can only have one avatar, an avatar can have many humans.
 
GeorgeSkywalker said:
Updated upto this point except for the issue/response below.





Thanks for explaining romi. Very much appreciated. However, I'm still not certain under what conditions he and yourself are referring to. If I assume he means if botting is allowed since that what this thread is more geared towards then I don't see hunting loots going lower but the opposite hunting loots would be more in abundance since more people will be botting.

If he means botting is not allowed and effectively enforced then that would make more sense. So does he mean that scenario? or some other scenario?
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i'm pretty sure he ( and i ) means no botting allowed.

as you said if botting is allowed then more people will bot since its becoming more public whats is good to bot with then people will bot more. ergo more loot will result in lower prices.
 
I think the biggest negative to botting is how easy it is for Mindark to generate revenue. Why make unique and engaging content when you can build an AFK instance. Mayhem is a prime example of boring yet lucrative easy to make and maintain content. The longterm problem is Mindark will end up with a product that is bland, will not retain many new players, and they will slowly lose their active recreational players. I'd like to see game built around engaging content like the RDI Labs than AFK instances like Mayhem.
 
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I hope booting will be hardcore restricted , if that make sence . I mean i want it to be forbidden and that MA realy do there best to hunt the booters and stop them.
 
LAZZ said:
I hope booting will be hardcore restricted , if that make sence . I mean i want it to be forbidden and that MA realy do there best to hunt the booters and stop them.
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Wasn't MA that made the game playable with only one key pressing? Also they implemented life steal and auto loot.

What you guys asking is contradictory with the path MA followed the last years. :dunno:
 
Also when people say booters most of the time is just macro users. (Pressing F repeatedly) The mayhem and instances are perfect for that, no need to worry about interfering with others gameplay. How you think so many people do redulite??? Dang this last Mayhem even got inflation. It's generating many ped burn per hour for MA. PED that they don't need to pay out anymore, markup is other story cause it's not payed by MA.

Did you know that now if a mob is unreachable you don't even auto select it anymore by pressing F? This was after the new UI. It's perfect for macro user. C'mon how can we be so blind? Mindark is telling us that this is the way!

So many threads created about this topic, so much energy spent around this discussion when Mindark is clearly telling us that this is the future.
 
just like auto clickers used to be bad and now auto loot pills are sold in thr webshop...MA should make macro commands and sell script pages you can put the commands into and use like a pill. target, move to pos, loot, teleport, heal, would all be commands and the script could hold a certain number of commands based on script size (cost)
 
Farmer Smurf said:
just like auto clickers used to be bad and now auto loot pills are sold in thr webshop...MA should make macro commands and sell script pages you can put the commands into and use like a pill. target, move to pos, loot, teleport, heal, would all be commands and the script could hold a certain number of commands based on script size (cost)
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It would be easier for them to stick the mobs in crafting machine tbh. I mean all these macro ideas you might as well just go next step.
 
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