The problem with EU's economy

[Corey 'Greyfox']

DISCLAMER, SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS AHEAD.
Okay just some thoughts floating around my head on the problems with EU.
1-A real economy functions on consumption, if their is no consumption of goods then their is not an economy. How this relates to EU is simple, items decay so their is consumption. Where the problem is, UL items are simply repaired at a terminal, consuming no materials to repair. This then leads to a hole in the economy balance. In real life their are entire buisness' dedicated to repairing and manufacturing parts for repairing items, this in turns creates demand for components, wich inturn creates demand for base materials. With the repair system being controlled by MA, an entire industry and all the demands created by that industry are lost.
2-Crafting is borderline gambling, sure in real life even the most skilled cratsman will screw up from time to time, but not nearly as often as in EU. Perhapse a solution to this would be to greatly increase the success rate in crafting, but also increase the number of materials required by the same multiple. Another option would be to make crafting more successful, but limit the number of any one item allowed to be in play at one time, based on population.(ya I know this would cause problems with UL items)

Thoughts? Opinions?
(And no, I don't care about conspiracies about MA/PP's/Secret avatars/etc..)

 

[RobBuona]

1-A real economy functions on consumption, if their is no consumption of goods then their is not an economy. How this relates to EU is simple, items decay so their is consumption. Where the problem is, UL items are simply repaired at a terminal, consuming no materials to repair. This then leads to a hole in the economy balance. In real life their are entire buisness' dedicated to repairing and manufacturing parts for repairing items, this in turns creates demand for components, wich inturn creates demand for base materials. With the repair system being controlled by MA, an entire industry and all the demands created by that industry are lost.

This is mostly true. I don't know if you've checked out Afterworld at all, but there are no unlimited items in that game. From what I hear, the person who started Afterworld was an Entropia player, which would make sense since limited items bolster the economy much more than unlimited items in general. Obviously at this point there is no going back as far as unlimited items in Entropia go. I don't think things would work out too well if people logged in and their Mod FAPs had disappeared.

To look at the other side of this, though:

While unlimited items do slow down the flow of PEDs to a degree, which is bad for the players, they are good in some ways for MindArk. Particularly uber items: these items are an investment from the players, and in most cases players are depositing thousands of real dollars to acquire these items. While this does not help other players directly, it certainly helps MA. This could trickle down and indirectly benefit the players.

Going back to your side of things, there are many unlimited items though that don't require a huge investment to acquire. Thus, they do not necessarily benefit anyone at all. Take the ME/05 SGA Excavator. This is a great item for miners, but doesn't require that big an investment to obtain. As a result, the player never needs another excavator, and if he/she is a trader or something of the sort, it may be the case that no depositing is required at all. In this case, as you said, the opportunity for consumption is indeed lost.

That said, I think the "investment" items such as the Mod FAP were a good move, but MA did not properly balance "investment" items with "consumption" items. But at this point, things are so well-established that I don't think there is any going back on any of it, especially with how touchy some players are.

 

[whiteknut]

1-A real economy functions on consumption, if their is no consumption of goods then their is not an economy.

There is consumption of ammo when hunting, so there is economy. And cause items decay there is consumption of peds (tt value is going down). Take it as in real life you buy yourself a land, it will be yours forever(same as UL items), you can use your land to plant forest there (buy ammo) and sell wood later (loot mobs). UL items are as big part of economy as L items.
I think UL items are great investment for anyone who is really interested in being part of this unique economy.

 

[Svarog]

With the repair system being controlled by MA, an entire industry and all the demands created by that industry are lost.

The greatest advantage of an UL item is that you don't depend on availability of this item wherever you go, especially on other planets. If MA would introduce a special repairing profession or complicate the repairing in any other way (e.g. you'd need special materials for the repair), soon you would spend half of your time looking for a repairer (or for the materials) instead of hunting . Also fees to those repairers (or MU on the materials) would kill the advantage of not paying MU on L.

Perhapse a solution to this would be to greatly increase the success rate in crafting, but also increase the number of materials required by the same multiple. Another option would be to make crafting more successful, but limit the number of any one item allowed to be in play at one time, based on population.

The first would kill MU on the materials, the second would make the economy even less real.

 

[Mega]

How I'd describe Entropia's economy on a micro scale.

When I'm waiting for my stuff to sell, I'm hunting small stuff or just logging in to check if it has and logging back out if it hasn't.

When my stuff is sold I can decide to hunt big, medium or small.

I'm mostly a hunter and the above is my personal perspective. Whether I remain a hunter is very dependant on what Mindark do to missions come August.

 

[Infinity01]

ASFAIK, the main problem MA identified as to the reason for leaving EU is ... poor loot/no looter..

MA has addressed the no looter... but it appears that the main reason... cost to play/poor loot has not been addressed..

If you dont' have players you can't have economy... no matter how you try to tweak it....
Second life and EU, if I'm not mistaken, started almost at the same time..based on my understanding both are linked to real money...

Now, I've just searched the web for their player base... and this is what i've found....

Those are real time concurrent log-in number (dont' miss the date and time at the top)


Thats the the main problem MA is facing... very small player base (cash-cow)
After CLD sale MA should have enough to adress this issue ..

and to start with should be the balancing of the loot...
MA should stop giving back <80% and >100% TT RR for the short term!!

I also think MA should put extra tax on money players are withdrawing out of EU above their deposited amount!

That's the only way forward... and not by suppressing the cash-cow by calling them whiner, troller, complainer, blah blah blah

All others, are secondary or tertiary... infact that's also the result of the survery!!

 

[Dave Stevens]

Thoughts? Opinions?
)

The real world economy is broken...why do you expect EU's to be perfect?

 

[Crone]

Crone just met the pope on this forum.

Other than that about EU economy. According to Crone there are a few flaws:

1. PED disappearing; an economy can only run well if money doesn't burn. Stock or housing prices going down means immediate banking problem, which leads to rapid downfall of the economy. MindArk (or players) takes PED out.

2. The current banking system is failing. It's not a bank, it's a pawnshop. We need real banking though. When Crone wants to be a cabdriver he will need a car. If Crone cannot afford a car he goes to the bank for a loan. Then he can be a cabdriver in his new car. In the current banking system in EU that's not possible. If lucky Crone can get a loan for his new car only if he turn in the car. Crone still needs a car to be a cabdriver and now also needs to pay rent.

3. No safe means for shares. The dutch economy started to boost in the 16th century. That's when they invented shares (for the dutch VOC). Look it up, interesting story. Trade ships were paid for by giving out shares. Everyone could buy a relatively cheap share into a trade ship. When a ship returns the shareholders would get part of the load or part of the profit. The value of a share would drastically increase when the ship was close to home on it's way back. Now there is also trade in shares. In modern economy we call that stockexchange.

4. Who are you? If Crone doesn't know you, Crone doesn't trust you and Crone doesn't want you to make profit from him. Crone doesn't buy stuff from a webshop he does not know. Neither does the webshop take a risk in delivery first, payment later. In these cases, there is no trade. European economy runs on this value. Here you get payment terms from your supplier. Crone could order something and have 30-60 days to actually make the payment. Loans again. Loans seem important.

5. This is in the essence for most players entertainment. Entertainment costs money, it doesn't make money. The only way for people to make money here is to provide entertainment. MindArk should be glad with people providing entertainment. It will mean income. Instead they try to stop people from providing entertainment. (Fees on events.)

Most of these issues can actually be solved. There should be a button to create a "ownership deed" for an item. This deed should cover ownership. With the item and an ownership deed one can actually loan the needed money and one could actually have payment terms by providing the ownership deed as "insurance". More deeds could make share possible.

The first part (MindArk) can be solved by advertisers in game. If coca-cola started advertising for a couple of millions a year things would look bright for MA and they didn't need to take PED out of our economy. If this was a serious project with actual working economy maybe universities (economics) could be persuaded to sponsor the whole thing as "science project".

Issue 4 cannot be solved. It is Crones choice to show or not to show up at reallife meetings.

The last issue is not to be solved. Entertainment costs money. The providing-entertainment-costs can be solved.

Crone made MindArk aware of these points years ago. Together with a lot more text and ideas. Some of which are actually implemented. Crone can ofcourse not tell for sure his ideas were implemented or someone elses with the same ideas.

Generally he likes economics. If MindArk wishes to speak to Crone about economics they are welcome to send him an invite with a modest fee in PED and two tickets to Sweden.

ps. maybe Crone will edit his post a bit when things pop up in his mind.

 

[Crone]

The real world economy is broken...why do you expect EU's to be perfect?

Any idea how that happened?

 

[Kilgore Cain]

There is consumption of ammo when hunting, so there is economy. And cause items decay there is consumption of peds (tt value is going down). Take it as in real life you buy yourself a land, it will be yours forever(same as UL items), you can use your land to plant forest there (buy ammo) and sell wood later (loot mobs). UL items are as big part of economy as L items.
I think UL items are great investment for anyone who is really interested in being part of this unique economy.

I'm kinda curious about who buys your "wood" if everyone is only needing ammo to keep playing , or is all loot sold to the TT and the economy is dead ?
Like it or not L-items saved the economy from dying when they where introduced .

 

[KijkkiJikki]

Any idea how that happened?

Too many no looters from the collateralised debt obligations?

 

[Dave Stevens]

Any idea how that happened?

A mixture of greed, lies, dumb politicians and dumber investors.

 

[Crone]

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

interest rate Check it out in a timeframe 2004 till 2009. See the rise in 2004-2006? (EURIBOR as most influencial rate in Europe.)

If Crone has to pay 50% more for his loans (in his case mortages, but others also have personal loans), he will go bankrupt as soon as his savings are burnt. When it doubles (2007)... Crone is a goner.

When people need to borrow money at a higher interest rate, obviously one can borrow less. If one can borrow less to buy Crones house then the value of Crones house will drop. When that happens Crone will go bankrupt. The bank doesn't get it's loans back. The bank goes bankrupt.

And now this. The one thing that can be manipulated in the economy is interest rate.

How does this relate to EU economics?

As stated before, EU doesn't have a banking system. The banking system EU uses is the players personal bank account. This is no problem, afteral entertainment costs money. But when the bank is in trouble (earth economics) so is the player. In times of need money should be able to come in, but it should not be able to go out. Then again, MindArk personel needs to eat aswell.

Again: entertainment costs money.

 

[Fifth]

I don't think things would work out too well if people logged in and their Mod FAPs had disappeared.

when u nuke someplace there's this blinding flash of light.... then silence.... then the BLAST arrives, levels all buildings.... silence again..... whole crap load of radioactive waste (all gone already, that's simply a bonus)

 

[Infinity01]

A mixture of greed, lies, dumb politicians and dumber investors.

They are being replicated in EU!!!!

So, yes probably it's a mistake for me to expect something better than real in this VW.

 

[Magix]

As much as I don't like losing, the current system works. I pay, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, and MA takes a cut. MA's cut is very large, but it is my choice to play.

What someone posted above I think should be repeated: without players, EU will fail.

Imho, I think the biggest problem is that nearly every single new player I meet thinks they will master EU within a few days, and if they just put in enough hours doing the same patterns over and over, they will eventually win. If people simply understood this game as a type of casino, we'd attract the type of players who would depo and stay. If we keep trying to attract players who are used to simplistic rpg's where you can eventually find every item in the game if you play long enough, we're going to keep seeing this unbelievable turnaround. In the past month, my soc has lost about 20 members who started this year. The longest one of them tried to stick it out was about 1 month.

 

[Peezle]

That said, I think the "investment" items such as the Mod FAP were a good move, but MA did not properly balance "investment" items with "consumption" items. But at this point, things are so well-established that I don't think there is any going back on any of it, especially with how touchy some players are.

This was a good move way back when MA was luring people into the experiment. But now it is probably a headache for everyone because such items are glaring obstacles to the whole (L) thrust of the game, which does lean toward a real economy, in that stuff wears out and need replacing by crafters - though perhaps too damn quickly!

Corey, I think the idea of less failures in crafting but needing more materials is a good one, but given the nature of loot windows as a hit/miss thing drilled into our heads- or rather MA's head - it might never happen.

At the end of the day, a real economy works when there are real economic models, which relys on the players deciding what is important, what is stupid, what is needed. As it is, the economy is a God model, because we don't decide what is important, but scurry around to pick up what God decides to drop and to create. I would like to see some emergent coding where our collective activity generates the things of economic life, rather than some dude with a baseball cap who thinks item x might be 'cool'.

 

[Dave Stevens]

In the past month, my soc has lost about 20 members who started this year. The longest one of them tried to stick it out was about 1 month.

Interestingly enough, I've seen a different side to this. Couple of my disciples have done pretty good, with assets well above deposits after a few months play. However, for varying reasons they are not currently playing much - sometimes RL gets in the way even when you are doing well...

I do agree though that people from other games think "I'm great at everything - I'll make a killing in EU" and turn up and get slaughtered financially because a) they dont listen and b) they "already know everything"

Personally, I like that EU is difficult, it means when you are successful its a real achievement.

 

[Infinity01]

Couple of my disciples have done pretty good, with assets well above deposits after a few months play. However, for varying reasons they are not currently playing much - sometimes RL gets in the way even when you are doing well...

Just out of my intuition, I think those players are mature, older than 30... and here ingame for fun and not to make money! ... let me know if i'm wrong!

I do agree though that people from other games think "I'm great at everything - I'll make a killing in EU" and turn up and get slaughtered financially because a) they dont listen and b) they "already know everything"

That's the mistake MA has been making... targetting the wrong audience with misleading info and hope..
That should be changed

Personally, I like that EU is difficult, it means when you are successful its a real achievement.

I agree!!!!

 

[FallenAngel]

DISCLAMER, SOME RANDOM THOUGHTS AHEAD.
Okay just some thoughts floating around my head on the problems with EU.
1-A real economy functions on consumption, if their is no consumption of goods then their is not an economy. How this relates to EU is simple, items decay so their is consumption. Where the problem is, UL items are simply repaired at a terminal, consuming no materials to repair. This then leads to a hole in the economy balance. In real life their are entire buisness' dedicated to repairing and manufacturing parts for repairing items, this in turns creates demand for components, wich inturn creates demand for base materials. With the repair system being controlled by MA, an entire industry and all the demands created by that industry are lost.
2-Crafting is borderline gambling, sure in real life even the most skilled cratsman will screw up from time to time, but not nearly as often as in EU. Perhapse a solution to this would be to greatly increase the success rate in crafting, but also increase the number of materials required by the same multiple. Another option would be to make crafting more successful, but limit the number of any one item allowed to be in play at one time, based on population.(ya I know this would cause problems with UL items)

Thoughts? Opinions?
(And no, I don't care about conspiracies about MA/PP's/Secret avatars/etc..)

I really doubt when MA designed this game originally they expected ppl to be so determined to "skill up", they never imagined people buying materials at markup and then TT-ing the end result.
They also made a few big mistakes with the economy as far as the non hunting or mining professions, the changes to colouring/texturing, the decay on clothing coupled with the high TT destroyed not only the confidence of many crafting but made these items less easy to sell. The fragmentation of loot for hunters with more and more "useless" items like extractors and tier components while not having enough demand/use for what is looted in the first place contributed too.
The arkadian team seems to have learnt some lessons from this, but team calypso seems to labour under a lot of inertia, and some of the big solutions will have to come from MA.

those are my thoughts.

 

[Infinity01]

At the end of the day, a real economy works when there are real economic models, which relys on the players deciding what is important, what is stupid, what is needed. As it is, the economy is a God model, because we don't decide what is important, but scurry around to pick up what God decides to drop and to create. I would like to see some emergent coding where our collective activity generates the things of economic life, rather than some dude with a baseball cap who thinks item x might be 'cool'.

Hmmm, I thought Cyrene is trying to do that!! The following is a quote from cyrene forum:

Agis said: ↑

Folks understand this im sure Ed has said what he can say, but from my research on the formula of Cyrene is this

- Lyst and Oil mostly at the moment (Effect go Mine out there your Lyst and Oil for now , as you mine the area will change and spawn new ores in the areas over time)

- Noob Mobs and Gloomy Landscape (Effect , as we are sort off refugees to a dying world, We need to work , do the daily missions as time goes on those mobs most likely will elove as well and get harder in turn the enivornment around will change from the dark and gloomy environment now to a prospered green paradise over time)

- Basic Loots on Cyrene (Oils and stuff) - (Effect as time goes on and you keep hunting new resources will sprout therefore the start of a player economy here)

Evolution is everything in Cyrene and only way to make this Planet prosper and evolve if we work on it United as Colonists of A New World.

Everything is easy now , but as time goes on and we work on giving life to this planet we as a whole will unlock the many things Cyrene has to offer and maybe the force feilds on those Sky Cities will get lifted if we work, If we do nothing then Evolution will not happen, This planet will be a hard life at the beginning - but we are building our own future, this is a unique turn for the Entropia Universe where we the players shape the future not the developers.

Cheers

NB : This is my interpretation and not necessarily fact

Agis Mckracken​

 

[aridash]

A real economy functions on production. some of the conclusions drawn despite this error, with the core point that there's no real production cycle in crafting undermining what there is of the economy. There's no cost of labour either, and unbalanced/arbitary scarcity.

really the problem is that RCE is not a game with a real ecomony, but a game economy using real cash.

 

[Peezle]

@ Infinity. Alas, Cyrene makes all the right noises, much like every other planet, but the reality is that a truly emergent economy - one based on what the players do directly - is out of reach. RCE, as mentioned, is not driven by players, but where players react to what is handed down to them.

It's all a question of control over production, and the ability to determine what matters and what is bogus.

Crafting should be the engine of the game, where nothing produced is without value, and what recycles mining and hunting loots. This works only partially, and as such, you get a partial economy. Imagine in RL where a crafter spends 100 000 hours before he can earn a $ profit... of course he would starve before he got anywhere.

An economy should include everything into its orbit, as an economical activity, where skilling is more than just a vaccuum to consume materials. This is not to say all should profit, but that all activities have a broader connection, instead of 5 000 people doing their own thing.

 

[Pham]

MA is just to slow with obsoleting good old items with better new items, caring too much about so-called 'investors'.
Back in 2004-6 there was huge market to fill without any need for crafters/miners and limited things at all. Many people were happy with looting their 1k-4k ped HOFs filled with items which sell for tt+1k-2k peds. When your losses are about 20 ped/day hunting MU mobs, then +1k profit is huge.Then MA invented (L). Limited thing means only longer supply chains to the consumer and 10%-50% losses everywhere across a chain. Good for MA (more deposits) and not so good for paying public.
MA could just keep issuing better items & mobs which would mean more fun and profit for people who try & get them, but of course since that would mean nobody will buy anything priced above tt+10k ped we don't have it. Modern economy IRL is driven by competition, demand and mass media (wow factor), MA offers you 90% return once you max your tool (and in hunting you seldom need more than maxed apis) also players see that as you progress in your professions you lose more and more. Why anybody will be eager to pay more than other for your produce if it will only mean that he will have to spend more per hour?

 

[Uvas]

@ Infinity. Alas, Cyrene makes all the right noises, much like every other planet, but the reality is that a truly emergent economy - one based on what the players do directly - is out of reach. RCE, as mentioned, is not driven by players, but where players react to what is handed down to them.

It's all a question of control over production, and the ability to determine what matters and what is bogus.

Crafting should be the engine of the game, where nothing produced is without value, and what recycles mining and hunting loots. This works only partially, and as such, you get a partial economy. Imagine in RL where a crafter spends 100 000 hours before he can earn a $ profit... of course he would starve before he got anywhere.

An economy should include everything into its orbit, as an economical activity, where skilling is more than just a vaccuum to consume materials. This is not to say all should profit, but that all activities have a broader connection, instead of 5 000 people doing their own thing.

I agree with your main point. This is not a true free market economy. We have to work with whatever Mindark decides to give us. So outside of the auction house, we can say this is a centrally controlled economy. Something like communism. The central economic council, (balancing team), decides what we need and how much. It then randomly disperses everything through loot.

Another interesting point that you brought up was crafting should be the engine that drives the economy. I really like this idea. But it shouldn't be so limited to some set pieces. Each crafter should get more and more ability to design unique items as their skills progress. Designer clothes would be a really big hit. And customizable weapons and armors. Each level of armor would get an amount of assignable "points" for the amount of raw materials put into it. These points could then be used for a particular protection or durability. Same with weapons. Crafters would then be able to actually craft what people wanted! And whoever came up with popular designs would prosper. At least until copied by other crafters. And competition would drive prices down.

But if every crafting job resulted in a profit, gold miners would quickly drain all monetary value from the game. A very sad reality. I think this is why every profession is set up to lose ped for the most part.

The only part that works like a real economy is the trading. People are free from any kind of coersion to trade as exactly as they see fit. Trades are made to the mutual benefit of both parties. This is the remarkable part of the game. A valuable currency, fully convertable into real world currency, is what drives it. Anyone can be confident that their peds are just as good as anyone else's.

So what we have is some weird hybrid economy that is very unique. I have never seen anything like it.

 

[Calin]

Any idea how that happened?

Yeah. GREED. Same IRL and in EU.

 

[Magix]

Just out of my intuition, I think those players are mature, older than 30... and here ingame for fun and not to make money! ... let me know if i'm wrong!

In my soc, the people who quit have run the gamut. Young, old, in-between. I do agree that older players try longer (some teenagers quit on their first day) but they still quit.

Imho, one of the biggest problems is that new people feel lied to. They think they can just sweat for a while until they earn enough money to play "seriously" (I have no idea what level they're thinking of.) When I tell them how much it actually costs, they get quiet for a while, maybe sweat for a few more days, then quit.

 

[Ragna Rock]

Most of these issues can actually be solved. There should be a button to create a "ownership deed" for an item. This deed should cover ownership. With the item and an ownership deed one can actually loan the needed money and one could actually have payment terms by providing the ownership deed as "insurance". More deeds could make share possible

Thats actually one of the best ideas Ive heard here in ages, actually ever... fractal ownership wiht bound TT value to every share provided. for example (not the actuall figures) a mod fap, which placed with 1000 shares each work 100 PED, would have 100 share owners at least, a bank could own it and retrieve it as pleased, and collect a renting fee, the renting fees gathered would be paid out to the shareowners as dividends to their investment, in case they dont sell their share at the open market for profit they can always return them to the bank at a fixed rate. Just an idea which was the logical extension of yours, sorry Im a bit drunk but seems to me like a decent idea to investment possibilities available for small budget players. Also the amount of shares a player hold could be put in as security for loans from the bank. For example you are collecting dividends, or have share in base value of 20k PED / year, you can get a bankloan in the size of 15k PED, repayable on 12 months 1,4k PED a month... etc etc... this idea might be worth working on, maybe some of the smart asses from MA will possibly see a decent possibility for improvement for the economy in this

I for my part would remove the items from TT, the TT should only have a option to dump shit in it, everything including ammo, mind essence, low lvl tools and armors should be crafted and limited, also in order to craft it it would to 90% should be made out of components. Making this a real world ecconomy.

 

[Crone]

Thats actually one of the best ideas Ive heard here in ages, actually ever... fractal ownership wiht bound TT value to every share provided. for example (not the actuall figures) a mod fap, which placed with 1000 shares each work 100 PED, would have 100 share owners at least, a bank could own it and retrieve it as pleased, and collect a renting fee, the renting fees gathered would be paid out to the shareowners as dividends to their investment, in case they dont sell their share at the open market for profit they can always return them to the bank at a fixed rate. Just an idea which was the logical extension of yours, sorry Im a bit drunk but seems to me like a decent idea to investment possibilities available for small budget players. Also the amount of shares a player hold could be put in as security for loans from the bank. For example you are collecting dividends, or have share in base value of 20k PED / year, you can get a bankloan in the size of 15k PED, repayable on 12 months 1,4k PED a month... etc etc... this idea might be worth working on, maybe some of the smart asses from MA will possibly see a decent possibility for improvement for the economy in this

I for my part would remove the items from TT, the TT should only have a option to dump shit in it, everything including ammo, mind essence, low lvl tools and armors should be crafted and limited, also in order to craft it it would to 90% should be made out of components. Making this a real world ecconomy.

Shh don't tell them everything up front. It worries Crone somewhat that a drunk guy thinks this is a good idea... Ownership deeds would also make it possible to borrow items from a friend in a safe way. Society vault or something would become an option. One could think of co ownership if you could make two (or more).

Someone told Crone in a pm yesterday that loans motivate players to buy things with money they don't have. Remember in EU al trades are final. A bank charges interest and an insurance fee. Not getting your money back as a bank is the risk of the bank. Second then bank maybe didn't get the item as security, but the bank did get an ownership deed as security. The bank will just retreive the item. A player always needs to have the value of his loan at hand since a bank won't agree with a pixie armour as security for a 100k loan.

 

[BenCoyote]

Waiter, Reality Check Please...

I'm going to speak my mind on this whole ball of wax, and some of the folks who say it's MA's fault, better wake up to a few now known facts.

First off has loot improved? Well yes and no. As was pointed out earlier, there are indeed fewer no looters, in game, and in fact I've been noting this with every hunt I do, thre are a lot less no looters now then what I saw 4 years ago.

But then you have to look at the other half to eh equation here, and that is the player themselves.

A lot of players have come into the game with the wrong attitude and that's why the economy is crashing and burnning. Sure you can take out a loan, but you do have to pay it back. with interest. (After all why do banks charge a transaction fee on a credit card? It's because they know you are buing things on credit be it a F-101 or a car (for Crone case, to be a cab driver.)

The real issue isn't that the loot it's unbalanced here, it's the palyer base's thinking of "Getting rich quick." It's this attitude of greed and manipulation by players that is in fact hurting the economy and thus any future playerbase in general. If you decided to move everything to one planet and then charge 50% over MU, it's not surprising why your item doesn't sell. If you are a bit more compeetitive, then your item sells and you can continue to recycle your peds.

The other issue is mass production and mass consumption. Sure the Crafter wants to make profit, but maybe they should look for a couple cartoons from the Warner Brothers movie studieos and study that when you creat an item you want to sell it and be competitive, and not force people away with higher prices.. After all, if you sell 1 gun for 48 ped and your competitior sells 10 at 45, who do you think will make money? You ? Or your competitor..

Also if you think Reselling is a good thing? It's not, It actually is detrimental to the markets.. it does hurt everyone except you.. but then if you make it impossible for others to play cause you are pocketing the profits, and then you want to go out and hunt, don't be complaiining about the poor loot, After all if you force a player (and a potential depositor out of the market, well then you have no one to blame but yourself for that.

In closing I must say this.. The ones who are thinking short term are the real losers here in the long run. They fail to see why they are losing because they can't see pass the end of their nose.. So yeah greed, and just stupid playing and short term myopic insight is really what is stalling the game. After all I look at everyting in a long term sense.. not a short term... It's those who think long term who succeed.. And I would like to point out one important point I learned from History..

IN 1929 when the world was in a similar situation, all the short term investors and speculators who thought the world was crashing around them, sold everything off and then immediately jumped out the window..
But the long term investors bought.. and they bought and bought.. and they sat on their investment until the right thme when the market recovered.. and it's these people who became the millionaires of the next generation. The same goes true for the people who had long term insight. Look at the late steve jobs.. He thought of novel ideas and innovations, and concepts that many people tend to ignore. That's wht makes the Ipad and the Ipod possible.. and why the Apple Corporation wht it is today. Same goes for Bill Gates and his insight and long term thought processes.. it's these people who think long term that profit in the long run.. the short term person will never succeed.. and if they do then it is all dumb luck, and it's all a gamble.

So if you think short term is fine? Go ahead, be smart, and get out of the game while you still can.. If you are smart and look in the long tern, and invest wisely, play fair and give people an honest price, then eveyrone wins and no one loses..

Benjamin Ben Coyote
"The blind Sniper"