Tired of the Whining - - - Design Your Loot Algorithm

atomicstorm

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Alright. I am pretty tired of the Loot is crap and markup is nonexistent arguments. It is emotionally and physically draining to keep reading them. Are they valid? Perhaps. So... Here goes...

SCENARIO

Mindark gives you a magic wand and tells you to design how Loot should work in this game... How would you design it?

Restrictions

Must be a fair playing field.
Must include provisions for new players.
Be objective.
Provide at least high level math to demonstrate the application of said algorithms.

Discuss.
 
for the love of all that is still good in EU. please be careful what you post! they just might listen :laugh:
 
same loot same mob (and maturity ofc) killed....fixed...period
 
Higher math? tt return vs balancing the economy are only loosely related, and only the latter can meaningfully be changed... and that one only requires simple math and flow charts.

There are literally infinite good ways to do this but a few important guidelines are:
  • loot is differentiated by mob, and to a lesser extent, maturity.
  • A few "filler" stackables make up 90+% of every loot except rare high multipliers. Whether this is ammo, wool, common paint or meat is unimportant, but wool, bones, meat and one type of hide makes the most sense. This is necessary if any of the drops are to be rare enough to support a markup.
  • UL item drops tied to active population of each planet and exceedingly rare. Tiering reverted to what it was and should have remained: an item sink.
  • The components for weapon crafting added back to loot
  • etc

ETA: in short, revert many of the blind flailing changes made in the last five years
 
I think you can only offer a decent solution, if you understand how it works already, or at least offer your thinking how you think it works.

My understanding is this game is not gambling, (it's the basis why I've continued so many times against all odds). I still believe return is based on a formula of skill gain, and peds turned over, with a timer that triggers the return. I think when it goes wrong, it's down to MA managing cash flow, maybe they're hit with a string of withdrawals or need to meet other cash flow targets, so they will adjust payback timers to suit them (regardless who has just deposited or not).

I also think you have a skill gain adjustment per log on, so one day you could gain more doing the same thing as other day, so I think that also throws off timing returns. Not to mention if they try and hit CLD revenue or chase depos.

MA's most biggest mistake was to tell those that believed, that loot was not personal. In other words once ped is lost it's lost. Even if this was not true, they didn't then go on to say; but we do measure you in other ways so that you're personally rewarded. I expected them to say something like that, especially since it's not gambling.

The problem with how they've set it now, is even with £100 or $200 deposit (1600 -2000 peds), even on a good day your bouncing from Even - small loss - big loss - even - small gain, over and over, so unless you hit an uber or decent hof a hunter is seriously in trouble with loss of peds. I honestly believe the current situation is un-maintainable for whatever reason MA have set it like that.

I also have a feeling, and this is just my personal view point or concern that maybe credit card deposits are not counted until MA are confident they have our cash, even if you have a unblemished history of successful CC payment. I somehow think it effects your avatars returns.

So basically I think they need to be more brave paying out peds, they have to take a chance with their players, rather than setting all the risk against the player. In other words balance the risk and reward better.

Depositors are their income, I don't see why you can't have a personal trigger that "instantly" turns you on for $3 - $5 cost an hour, and keeps paying you until your timer runs out, then after that it runs down your peds, in a managed but entertaining way. At least that way you feel, that you've had value for money and will want to depo again.

Even if such a trigger is a backup to the current loot system. The server says this person that "paid us" has had too much bad luck last 12 hours, trigger them a hof based on losses against ammo bought.

The point is improved value for deposits, will improve the relationship massively.

That's all I think needs to be done, regardless of what issues MA have. Surely long term that would benefit them.

Personally I think I'm wasting my time, they've been here 10 years doing what they had to do to survive, and I think survival is more important to MA than long term growth, they just seem to struggle to get over that hurdle to feel comfortable. You can almost feel the desperation.

You can read the last annual strategy like a book, it's not hard because it's so damn obvious. Kill of the value of assets, there's too much value in items, so too many long termers relying on other players to pay for their play. Reduce the value of stored TT value stuff (which is one reason I think big stores are asking for trouble). Rotate large investors, 6 months for Big, 6 months for CP, 6 months for TI/Ark, turn on Medusa if not enough people visiting Monria....does make me smile.

I think the biggest thing MA can do right now, is open another brand new world, totally clean running along side this one not linked to the current EU, under a totally new Limited company with independent finances (i.e. don't get the new business, paying for the old). All new releases attract players in droves, I don't understand why MA has all their eggs in one basket. Never understood it.

Rick
 
We had already such a discussion in our soc recently.
As I posted in other threads with similar subject, with my opinion, MA did already a balancing to loot.
What I think,
the recent balancing seem to focus on "fair" distribution of loot.
Something I think the majority of the participants are asked for long time.
Is it good that way?
Yes, I think it is working better than the previous system.
That mean,
if you are a depositor and recycled of PED, your chances for decent or better loot are increased.
That I should choosed if I was decision maker.
 
SCENARIO

Mindark gives you a magic wand and tells you to design how Loot should work in this game... How would you design it?

Restrictions

Must be a fair playing field.
Must include provisions for new players.
Be objective.
Provide at least high level math to demonstrate the application of said algorithms.


I wouldn´t change anything cause players will still complain no matter how "more fair" I create it.

DEAL-WITH-IT.jpg
 
Each mob should have like 5 things that can be looted from it in the loot tables, not set up like it is now... each of those 5 resources should have at least 5 blueprints tied to them. Three low level, one mid-level, and one high-level. Each of the mid-level prints should have two of the three low levels as a component ingredient. High level ingredient list should consist of all three low levels and the mid-level in addition to some other rare stuff, which is crafted mostly... there also should be super-high level bps that have ingredient lists consisting of 5 things created from 5 other high level bps... and in all of this blueprint re-do there should be no bps that sound alike in spelling, etc. Everything should be as unique sounding as possible so as to lower confusion/learning curves...

Also, to add to above, each bp mid-level and higher should have three mined things as ingredients as well as the crafted stuff... The lower levels can be more give and take on if they need mined stuff or hunted stuff... since low level hunters need crafting skilling bps that solely rely on loot they get, etc., and same with mining.

loot tables should be unique per mob... shouldn't be 'shared resources' too much that are globally found in multiple types of mobs as it is now since higher supply = lower demand. Same goes for mining.. each area should have fairly unique resources, not shared stuff... yes that makes it more difficult to find what is common nowadays, but it will help folks looking for certain things to go looking for them more. Maybe each LA should have 'unique' resources that only that LA provides, and the LA owners help MA with the naming of stuff on that particular land... and each LA should have at least 3 bps tied to it's unique resources. Always thought it weird that LA owners control what mobs are on the land, but not anything to do with that resources are in the land itself... the LAs should be more like real world 'farms'...give the LA owners more control over the mining part of the game instead of the hunting part like they have now... Also possibly think about allowing them to 'grow' stuff on the farms for new professions like fishing, farming, harvesting, etc. Maybe certain tamed mobs only eat a certain type of vegetable that has to be grown on an LA... so instead of just focusing on DNA to control mob spawns get more creative... LA owners can use different planting rotations to attract wildlife mobs like the real world works sort of. Get the rabbits to go to the carrot patches... need some deer, put up some salt. Maybe a certain type of silk worm is needed in tailoring and it only grows in a certain type of tree that LA owners will need to grow on the farm.

All 'items' like weapons/tools, etc. should be crafted. This will increase the demand for crafters, which in turn increases demand part of the supply issue with loot, causing higher markup as each profession is more needed and integral in the advancement of the others. Yes, hunters won't like loosing the ability to loot stuff... maybe there can be some way to make up for that... maybe don't lose ALL of the items in hunting loot - just limit it to stuff that is less desirable than the crafted alternative in various ways... maybe just loot stuff that makes sense... like mobs killed shouldn't loot you back ammo or already crafted guns, they should loot you the base materials used to craft guns... mined stuff should give you the equivalent stuff you can use to craft ammo, etc. Any looted items found in hunting should be really primitive stuff, not laser guns, etc. It should be stuff like teeth that you then add to some pole to create an axe with the tooth as the sharp part, and stuff like that...

Also, and this one seems like it'd hurt crafters, but it might not... make more stipulations be in place about how long it takes to craft something. Maybe level 1 stuff can be crafted as it is now, level 2 takes two spins of the level one timer in the crafting machine, level 3 takes twice as long on the amount of time the crafting machine takes to cycle as level 2 took, level 4 takes twice as long as level 3, etc, on up the ladder, with each level taking twice as long to craft in the machine than the level before it. This will lower amount of higher level stuff you can craft in a short amount of time, which helps lower supply, thereby increasing demand a little.
 
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90% TT return to Regular depositors..... 10% TT return to Resellers and know old-age manu*****s.....

i am pretty sure that eu will fail really quick if there were no traders/resellers...

and the 10% tt return would also mean that resellers would stop cycling peds on ingame "play" activity completely...

what i would do:

remove all equipable loot from creatures (weaps, armor, faps)...
this stuff should only be crafted from ingredients found in hunting/mining...
=> miners and hunters sell their stuff to crafters which craft stuff the miners/hunters use to get more materials..easy as that...
(btw, yeah right...it is totally logical that animals carry armor and weapons in their bodys..perhaps huge eomons which ate some hunters in whole )
 
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remove all equipable loot from creatures (weaps, armor, faps)...
this stuff should only be crafted from ingredients found in hunting/mining...
=> miners and hunters sell their stuff to crafters which craft stuff the miners/hunters use to get more materials..easy as that...
(btw, yeah right...it is totally logical that animals carry armor and weapons in their bodys..perhaps huge eomons which ate some hunters in whole )

It does make sense what you say, and my guess is that MU for some weapons, if craftable, would fall down, but then again dropped goods is one of the things that keep me hunting and enjoying the thrill of a potential good loot.

Wouldn't change anything since to me it looks fair. The TT value of the loot to me it's quite balanced. Sometimes you lose sometimes you win. Just don't go after the losses.

If your losing stop and try another day if your not liking the losses.
When the ped cycle is too big, it may be too late to figure out if something else should be done, just reduce the cycles, to raise awareness if it's time to stop and go for something else, or to continue.
 
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90% TT return to Regular depositors..... 10% TT return to Resellers and know old-age manu*****s.....

EU free to play style is good as is. Pay to win no thanks.

Where depos spend PED, traders spend time. Which is worth more?
 
I dont mind taking a loss usually, but here lately amoung others our returns in TT value are seriously low.
After cycling 2k I got 1 global and less then 50% return. I usually cycle at least 1k and still coming up dry in loot everytime.
I could handle 70% TT return but not even close, something has to be way off and defentally need to be fix...
3 globals after almost 2 weeks of big cycles... WTF?!?
 
MindArk doesnt like talking about loot theories with the players because it's bad for business. if everyone was winning, all the time, it would be the end of the game.

The most M.A. would say is "the tools (tool/weapons/amps/faps/armor/plates) and skills of a player makes a difference." My understanding from the little they tell us is that, you have to know how to use "tools" properly. Im just guessing, but, I think, if most ppl knew how to hunt "properly" then their losses would be 10%, and most hunters would be ok with that. Problem is most hunters think its all about killing mobs fast and never having to heal because its extra decay, blah blah.. I think that decay from med kits, if used properly is justified and rewards players.

To me, there is a method to the madness. The loot system in the game is, as fair as it can be, but the rules to play by, are all hidden.
 
TT 95% to hunters
TT 87-94% to miners
TT 94-98% to crafters

Between 1k - 4k cycled ( depend mob lvl , lvl amp and condition on craft)
Simple enough and market self adjust

Why? hunter have more cost
Miners have less costs and better mus
Crafters have high mu to pay
 
If the players don't loose their peds constantly, it cannot work.
But i have too the feeling there is a small problem with newcommers(they have to learn the game, enjoy, not "pay" for others) , and a problem with veterans.( or big depositers)
It's like a small crew is getting most of the globals...and rules the economy..

Things that "could" be interesting are totally overpriced.... no one knows the game mechanics, but anything a bit eco, or fancy,or "semi-rare" is sold 2,3,5,30,40,200 or 1000x+ its price!.. 250 ped UL gun/armor is sold for more than 500$... i believe high markup on mid level gear is part of problem . (no one buy!, most people wear cheap armor with tons of hp...and kill cheap monsters...it s not virtuous circle...the players who doesn't have 200hp+ and evade should pay all the "equipment"? while old players fap in beginner set?)

Then , "pros" are cycling thousands of dollars everyday, as a low-mid level player i need to play hours just to grab a "low" global, whatever i do. (so i got 50-60% return on almost any activity).. Feel like i m totally useless to the game, i just "pay".
I don't know who is depositing what, but from what i read, some play for free(or low cost) for years...and have lot of ped ingame...
When i think of all thoses people, thoses who have lot of money ingame, or thoses depositing lot of money..and the high skilled players playing on the noob playfield...(atrox/argo,all >lv 25 and low lv craft,etc) i don't see how it could work.
(and of course all traders..,estate owners,etc,etc)

It s so elitist, it s like there are more sellers than buyers now...too many Lords, not enough peasants
 
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TT 95% to hunters
TT 87-94% to miners
TT 94-98% to crafters

Between 1k - 4k cycled ( depend mob lvl , lvl amp and condition on craft)
Simple enough and market self adjust

Why? hunter have more cost
Miners have less costs and better mus
Crafters have high mu to pay

This concept will fail. Can't peg things to markup. Hunting markup is what is most disastrous at the moment. Two things will need to happen... either oil is substituted for something else thus eliminating supply, armor and limited items drop with markup, or most of all have more crafting items that eliminate the supply. Greatest example of this in action is the fluctuation of kidney oil at and after events. Sometimes it is 102 and sometimes it is 115.

Planet partners have the ability to change this for hunters but instead we get stupid shit like the grind house strip tease or items crafted with ores and materials that are rare and have high mu... when perhaps something could be created with high potential that consumes a lot of the oils that are already in excess beyond the usual ruds, springs, and Conductors.

Perhaps it is time to put ped stacks back in loot.
 
Lets go over the basics. For the whole playerbase:
Total TT in = total TT out, minus fixed costs (goes to MA, CLD owners, etc).
Total MU in = total MU out.

MU is what one player pays to another. The sum is always zero simply because, if nobody pays any MU nobody will get any MU.

What we want to achieve here is to make the system fair, right?
No player group constantly paying for some other player group?

This means the average MU gained + average TT return = equal for all professions.

In other words, if one profession (in average) has a better MU than another, ofc it should be compensated with average TT. Which is exactly what Vadio says:
TT 95% to hunters
TT 87-94% to miners
TT 94-98% to crafters
Otherwise, we'll end up with everyone becoming a miner. Nonsense.


Another way to solve the problem is making the MU equal for everyone. Result:
Those who will gain from this change won't even notice anything changed (and are still disgruntled lol).
Those who will lose will start a major uprising and cry a river on all forums.
So... better not go there.
 
Each mob should have like 5 things that can be looted from it in the loot tables, not set up like it is now... each of those 5 resources should have at least 5 blueprints tied to them. Three low level, one mid-level, and one high-level. Each of the mid-level prints should have two of the three low levels as a component ingredient. High level ingredient list should consist of all three low levels and the mid-level in addition to some other rare stuff, which is crafted mostly... there also should be super-high level bps that have ingredient lists consisting of 5 things created from 5 other high level bps... and in all of this blueprint re-do there should be no bps that sound alike in spelling, etc. Everything should be as unique sounding as possible so as to lower confusion/learning curves...

Also, to add to above, each bp mid-level and higher should have three mined things as ingredients as well as the crafted stuff... The lower levels can be more give and take on if they need mined stuff or hunted stuff... since low level hunters need crafting skilling bps that solely rely on loot they get, etc., and same with mining.

loot tables should be unique per mob... shouldn't be 'shared resources' too much that are globally found in multiple types of mobs as it is now since higher supply = lower demand. Same goes for mining.. each area should have fairly unique resources, not shared stuff... yes that makes it more difficult to find what is common nowadays, but it will help folks looking for certain things to go looking for them more. Maybe each LA should have 'unique' resources that only that LA provides, and the LA owners help MA with the naming of stuff on that particular land... and each LA should have at least 3 bps tied to it's unique resources. Always thought it weird that LA owners control what mobs are on the land, but not anything to do with that resources are in the land itself... the LAs should be more like real world 'farms'...give the LA owners more control over the mining part of the game instead of the hunting part like they have now... Also possibly think about allowing them to 'grow' stuff on the farms for new professions like fishing, farming, harvesting, etc. Maybe certain tamed mobs only eat a certain type of vegetable that has to be grown on an LA... so instead of just focusing on DNA to control mob spawns get more creative... LA owners can use different planting rotations to attract wildlife mobs like the real world works sort of. Get the rabbits to go to the carrot patches... need some deer, put up some salt. Maybe a certain type of silk worm is needed in tailoring and it only grows in a certain type of tree that LA owners will need to grow on the farm.

All 'items' like weapons/tools, etc. should be crafted. This will increase the demand for crafters, which in turn increases demand part of the supply issue with loot, causing higher markup as each profession is more needed and integral in the advancement of the others. Yes, hunters won't like loosing the ability to loot stuff... maybe there can be some way to make up for that... maybe don't lose ALL of the items in hunting loot - just limit it to stuff that is less desirable than the crafted alternative in various ways... maybe just loot stuff that makes sense... like mobs killed shouldn't loot you back ammo or already crafted guns, they should loot you the base materials used to craft guns... mined stuff should give you the equivalent stuff you can use to craft ammo, etc. Any looted items found in hunting should be really primitive stuff, not laser guns, etc. It should be stuff like teeth that you then add to some pole to create an axe with the tooth as the sharp part, and stuff like that...

Also, and this one seems like it'd hurt crafters, but it might not... make more stipulations be in place about how long it takes to craft something. Maybe level 1 stuff can be crafted as it is now, level 2 takes two spins of the level one timer in the crafting machine, level 3 takes twice as long on the amount of time the crafting machine takes to cycle as level 2 took, level 4 takes twice as long as level 3, etc, on up the ladder, with each level taking twice as long to craft in the machine than the level before it. This will lower amount of higher level stuff you can craft in a short amount of time, which helps lower supply, thereby increasing demand a little.

I like the basic idea behind Mastermesh's plan... Just make less complicated loot drops, achieve some sort of standardisation in BP material requirements and make each of the three major professions more interwoven.

+ Rep
 
This is something like how I'd like the hunting loot system to work.
I've studied some statistics but I'm no expert so apologies for any bad explanation or terms.
The numbers are for illustration purposes, actual numbers would have to be sufficient to ensure MA is willing to run the game with a certain level of players.

Mob kills are mutually exclusive events, therefore there are no mob, server, player, event or any sort of pools.
To get the average you'd probably need to kill 1,000 of the same mob.

Average Loot PED Value = (Mob HP + Armor Decay HP x 0.90)

The distribution of this average (90%) should be skewed.
High maximum amount say 1000% with a very low probability say 1/1,000,000
But that will need to be paid for by low returns having a high probability say 0% at 1/20

Dmg dealing items should have economy that can kill a mob +/-5% of its loot value
I.e best weapon in game could kill a 1000hp mob for 950PECs and the worst guns would cost 1050pecs.
Assuming 0% overkill.
This gives better weapons value. Same for Armor.

Once the PED value is determined we look at what drops, which is probably more important for MU.

Drops should be based on tables which should be dervived as follows:
  • Better Loot is added to tables of higher level mobs, level being derived by HP, Dmg & Aggression.
  • Loot tables should be carefully managed so that no one mob is more popular at a particular mob level.
  • Harder mobs should have better loot tables.
  • Mob maturity levels should increase in a uniform manor.
  • Higher Mob maturity should give a marginal increase to dropping better items.
  • Ignoring TT drops, loot gets better as the dmg/protection increases and eco increases
  • The best loot should have a low chance to drop like 1/1,000.000
  • good loot should drop like 1/100,000

Mob, item and loot table design would all have to be well designed so as to not make any one mob more favourable.
 
Something like this would be nice for a start:

MyfirstGlobal.jpg
 
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