Question: What do you think of current state of the game?

[Ivo Jahrumble]

Only two option avaliable as it is supposed to gauge the gap between the two groups.

I see many complaining and some defending. Would like to find out if there is any point in argueing for change.

If most think its perfect the way it is.. maybe the ones asking for change need to recheck their prioritys and either adjust their gameplay or simply quit, no matter how hard it is to quit something you really like/love.

If most think it sucks playing a RCE PvP game in a formula that intentionally drives the MUs far below the average it should/could produce, then some action is due...

I will gladly post a suggestion that creates a neverending economic game that should attract and retain far more players than the actual formula. Should there be any interest in it.

I don´t think players should be producing solutions for the developers. We should point out the obvious flaws and suggest the jist of the correction that needs to be made. After all we are merely players. Developers should develop, be creative and present solutions that adress current problems while at the same time preparing the future.

A setting stone for Entropia to live for "eternity" is becoming a full cycle economic pvp game. Where big and small wallets play an active part in the economy. Where demand is a constant and not a rarity..

 

[Msturlese]

i go to buy popcorns. "the sky is falling" is starting again

 

[deathception]

put all the good MU back in pvp lootable. mining and creature loot

 

[Gopher]

Only way the MU goes back up for a lot of stuff for long periods of time is if MA makes new craftable 2.0 limited weapons/tools better than any UL equivalent

 

[Gopher]

I think there is a lot of places to get good MU but the amount of mobs/places to mine that have only recycle food far overshadows the MU places/mobs. Every mob should have something of value(doesnt have to be big) that is unique to that mob to make it worth hunting. It is sad that there are so many mobs in this game yet only a small amount are actually worthwhile to hunt.

 

[Art Jennifer]

If loot MU goes up . So does paid MU

 

[D3sire]

If game would give you more mu% how can game live?
Hoarding is the key.....if you are desperate enough, most key materials like ignisium,putty,pyrite,garcen have chunk bit of upside downs when mayhems come.....that includes most crafting components especialy used for crafting guns and attachments.
Hunting has a lot bigger competitive scene and its much harder to make diffrence, but for example: socket component 1-10 off mayhem cost 101% in most cases or most people convert em to nanocube but during mayhems you can always sell em for 104% to 130% for higher tiers like 9 or 10 ....this is just one simple example.

To play like this all you have to have enough ped to wait....its like in RL: the more you have, more money will stick to it.

Summerized: There are lots of ways to make markup in this game (and anyone who knows how to will never show you how) observe and learn from best (i am sure that there are fuckton ways for everyone to make them simply at least less deposit or in better cases play for free)....dont be ''that guy shooting mobs and hoping he will loot twen item'''

 

[endermigne]

Financially speaking there can't be a load of items with high (and affordable!) markup. If that were the case nobody would deposit. Have you ever thought were the money would come from then? Everybody wants to benefit from playing, but that simply is not doable.

• Items with low markup don't allow players to maintain their PED-card. So players need to deposit to support their gaming.
• Items with high markup can't be bought just like that. It'd require smarter gaming for a while (meaning to not be able to do what you plan to do forever) or a deposit.
• Playing without deposits should be a challenge! It shows dedication. In the bigger picture simple leechers destroy the game.

Deposits are what keeps the game going. MindArk takes its share to pay the bills and future development. Once they can't afford that, there won't be a game anymore.

It doesn't matter how many F2P-players are out there who basically sweat a lot and/or use external sites to generate some PEDs. As long as there are deposits happening, they all count. Those include high-rollers and (repetitive) small depositors. Keep in mind that those who keep watching videos, do surveys, ... also generate PEDs, which are deposited by whoever runs that service. I have absolutely no idea if it's even possible to put numbers to that, but believe it or not, those videos and surveys end up as deposits, too. So they count.

Therefore, the question isn't "how can we convince MindArk to give us more items with markup?", but rather "how can we convince MindArk to keep the game interesting?". Whatever their strategy is, we can only hope that it pays off. Pays off for everyone. That's kind of sad, but remember that we're not the ones running the show. And if our suggestions, bug reports, whining, ... aren't heard it can't be our fault in the end.

 

[IzroD]

Financially speaking there can't be a load of items with high (and affordable!) markup. If that were the case nobody would deposit. Have you ever thought were the money would come from then? Everybody wants to benefit from playing, but that simply is not doable.

• Items with low markup don't allow players to maintain their PED-card. So players need to deposit to support their gaming.
• Items with high markup can't be bought just like that. It'd require smarter gaming for a while (meaning to not be able to do what you plan to do forever) or a deposit.
• Playing without deposits should be a challenge! It shows dedication. In the bigger picture simple leechers destroy the game.

Deposits are what keeps the game going. MindArk takes its share to pay the bills and future development. Once they can't afford that, there won't be a game anymore.

It doesn't matter how many F2P-players are out there who basically sweat a lot and/or use external sites to generate some PEDs. As long as there are deposits happening, they all count. Those include high-rollers and (repetitive) small depositors. Keep in mind that those who keep watching videos, do surveys, ... also generate PEDs, which are deposited by whoever runs that service. I have absolutely no idea if it's even possible to put numbers to that, but believe it or not, those videos and surveys end up as deposits, too. So they count.

Therefore, the question isn't "how can we convince MindArk to give us more items with markup?", but rather "how can we convince MindArk to keep the game interesting?". Whatever their strategy is, we can only hope that it pays off. Pays off for everyone. That's kind of sad, but remember that we're not the ones running the show. And if our suggestions, bug reports, whining, ... aren't heard it can't be our fault in the end.

I disagree ..If Mu goes up on loot stuff so goes crafting,ores,enm etc and so the crafted and looted rare items..Its always been linear..mu on loot goes down so the crafted items goes down..
But with Mu up even few % would make a bit more game interesting..Excitement of selling what u made insteed to recycle or sell to tt is more fun..
Mu destroyed everything,not all can have uber gear and play it for MU..
Those stories how they made their avatars "for free" are joke even 10-15y ago was possible with extreme luck since even noob could get 100K- 300k peds ATH.Now its pure money invested = gained..

But to game sustain in further ( IMO) needs more players,higer Mu etc..

Example was covid..prices were like 200-500% higher but for me even loot was,wider range of stuffs had a bit mu worth selling.. there were a lot more players then usual.

 

[TheOneOmega]

The framing of this question makes it impressively tricky to answer. I'm going to go with "we need to make changes to the way we're currently going about making changes."

 

[jetsina]

Only two option avaliable as it is supposed to gauge the gap between the two groups.

How do you gauge a gap when the people in that gap possibly aren't voting at all? Personally I'm in the middle, but even if I were clearly one side or the other it would only show a sentiment, not a fact.
The more useless of loots are the ones where you used to wish they were at least shrapnel that were valued at 101% for universal ammo. Now those can for the most part be exchanged into nanocubes with a value somewhere inbetween 100 and 101%, so better than pure tt at least. Stacking the stuff that gets maybe 105% mu is probably stuff I further use myself if the further use marginally pays off on a profession path I am happy to slowly follow.
Some pps have been improving the crafting pathways to an extent where I am reasonably happy for now, but yes, improvements can still be made, and should be...

 

[San]

If most think it sucks playing a RCE PvP game in a formula that intentionally drives the MUs far below the average it should/could produce, then some action is due...

"... intentionally ..."

I will gladly post a suggestion that creates a neverending economic game that should attract and retain far more players than the actual formula. Should there be any interest in it.

"... should ..."

Players drive the market, not the developers. (I already know why you'll claim otherwise, but it ain't so.) Market psychology is not usually understood well by its participants, because everybody sees it through their own eyes. The devs are already scampering to throw stuff after every sign of tiring, and every few years there is a round of sweeping changes to escalate the current meta in equipment and such. People acting collectively will always drive the market into rock bottom for the masses and to silly heights for a few, regardless what the devs come up with. If you have a magic formula to "create constant demand", they may have a job for you. But you wouldn't believe how many have tried already.

 

[Sulje]

"... intentionally ..."

"... should ..."

Players drive the market, not the developers. (I already know why you'll claim otherwise, but it ain't so.) Market psychology is not usually understood well by its participants, because everybody sees it through their own eyes. The devs are already scampering to throw stuff after every sign of tiring, and every few years there is a round of sweeping changes to escalate the current meta in equipment and such. People acting collectively will always drive the market into rock bottom for the masses and to silly heights for a few, regardless what the devs come up with. If you have a magic formula to "create constant demand", they may have a job for you. But you wouldn't believe how many have tried already.

bring in more players, force marketing to work.

 

[San]

bring in more players, force marketing to work.

A system that only survives by expansion is not sustainable.

 

[Msturlese]

Apart market psychological analysis just classic economy explains all
1. The animal spirit (maximize return, minimize effort) this is Keynes level
2. Marginal utility of a resource

This is enough to explain all, no need for big things.
it is perceived as "bad design" but is is simply "i am killing most common target"
higher level monster require GEAR and STATS to be owned.
higher level monster drop are more valuable just because are less "grinded".
average level of hunter is rising, now spleen oil is less in demand (more can retrieve it) so a whole resource lost its MU

creating MU is easy... just update Armatrix to 2.0 stats, give 90% eff to armatrix and all will buy them....
Hint .. it is not NOTIONAL EFF that matters, but also cost to get it... but still people buy lp-80s
still people buy fanoos at 1000% and so on.

best weapons are:
1. the brain...
2. asimmetry of information
3. understanding cost of efficiency on ONE's playstyle.

 

[Msturlese]

A system that only survives by expansion is not sustainable.

San you are dangerous... gamers must be math blind and have no economic skills

 

[jetsina]

A bigger danger in this day and age seems to be half-knowledge, or a sentence wrongly interpreted.

A system that only survives by expansion is not sustainable.

Here, I'd say it is

A system that only survives under a requirement for expansion is not sustainable. - and thus at some point fails.

Expansion is necessary in many many systems to reach a stronger state compared to the surroundings - a critical mass if you will. This expression from physics has also maybe never been achieved amongst people, especially protesting cyclists in some countries, but hey, the principle is there...
(use of irony).
I think we do need more growth so that people who wish to sell their rarer but currently low-in-demand noob loots can do so to the medium levels who prefer to buy rather than spend time gathering. It is the principle behind sweating, although sweating is not balanced at a good point in my opinion.
Maybe I'd try (if balancing manager) to achieve a market perception of value around 5 peds per k for sweat and allow either AH trading or lower the fee for converting to and from 'crated sweat'. I realise that's tricky considering the bps that now include sweat not allocated any crafting value in the returns formula, but still, half the sweat or so is at least returned in the partial successes.

I think one of the problems is the balance of sweaters: non-sweaters. I agree that growth does not necessarily cure that. A growth in more skilled players maybe could etc etc

 

[Msturlese]

jetsina did you factor in that depositors pay sweat ?
Free to play my A** paying player "employ" sweaters.

it would be F2P if Sweat was sellable at TT for 1 ped per k (buyer of last resort was MA)
to be F2P we need to kill monsters "bare hands" that do say 1 damage per hit (people could farm according to their resistances

this game is pay to play and whre it is pay to play it is pay MORE to win. and it is not really true also.. because of negative martingale effect

The expansion is a BIG limit, and actually player MUST relay on expansion because inner market is not absorbing all manufactured loot.

equation is simple... TOTAL RETURN = (TTSpent+MUspent)-(TTreceived+Musold)
the first control is on MU Spent... go UL. so UL factors in MU saved in timespan.....

more people going UL = less craft , even more resource in excess,
even more lackustre trading.
a top level cycler just consume pills and enhancers so in the long run the only "valuable" resources will be Novas, "output" and pyrite, the rest will converge to nanocube.

(this is entropia at its finest BTW)

 

[jetsina]

Thanks for your reply. Of course it is a factor I've considered. It is part of the F2P mechanic (if ppl wish) as a P2P market paid for by those higher up, whether they be depositors or not.
I've not really read your post with much concentration (or full concentration), sorry, but yes, the current situation ultimately needs growth due to further creation of unl stuff. However, one can also claim that old unl stuff is now written off (no mu), and that steady replacement with slightly better stuff (even by new unl) does not require player growth. It is still product evolution or growth, however, ok.

 

[Ivo Jahrumble]

"... intentionally ..."

"... should ..."

Players drive the market, not the developers. (I already know why you'll claim otherwise, but it ain't so.) Market psychology is not usually understood well by its participants, because everybody sees it through their own eyes. The devs are already scampering to throw stuff after every sign of tiring, and every few years there is a round of sweeping changes to escalate the current meta in equipment and such. People acting collectively will always drive the market into rock bottom for the masses and to silly heights for a few, regardless what the devs come up with. If you have a magic formula to "create constant demand", they may have a job for you. But you wouldn't believe how many have tried already.

Thank you all for the inputs so far.

I opted to debunk this post as I think it touches most points.

Players drive the market, not the developers."

True. Players drive the market. And the developers have the tools to create need, that leads to demand, that creates markup.

so

"... intentionally ..."

yes as in pre EP economy vs post EP economy - Developers triggered that change not the players.

Market psychology is not usually understood well by its participants, because everybody sees it through their own eyes. The devs are already scampering to throw stuff after every sign of tiring, and every few years there is a round of sweeping changes to escalate the current meta in equipment and such.

I do think that Entropia has a very well designed economy to a great extent. It is just not enabled. Escalating the meta will always be a thing and there is a lot of room to pick from in where to create paths of need/MU while sinking old gear.

People acting collectively will always drive the market into rock bottom for the masses and to silly heights for a few, regardless what the devs come up with. If you have a magic formula to "create constant demand", they may have a job for you. But you wouldn't believe how many have tried already.

And thats the point of my "magic formula". Creating a system that balances base MU using activity on the different professions. Plug the leaks in the economy so we can have a higher level of Entropia.

As you point. people will drive the market down always. Under a system that punishes overplay, people will have to pay up to unbalance it and keep playing by using the economy.
Creating need creates demand. If there is demand there is need for more players to do stuff. Hence socs come to life again cause of time bottlenecks.

As someone pointed. The game is much more fun when there is activity and trade. I agree fully. My best days where back in 2008-2011 when there was enough demand to keep me mining all day and crafting all night.

and finally

"... should ..."

I understand how sensible this topic is.
If there is no interest i will save myself and you all a lot of time putting everything pen to paper in a fundamented and logical way. thats is why I opted to create only two really opposing answers. measure happy/unhappy peeps to understand if I will be talking to interested or uninterested people.

I do not have a big investment in game nor is it small when relative to my earnings and living place. My agenda is same as many. If Entropia reaches full potential and mass appeal the big winners will be the players who are already here.

But Im not selling a "magic formula" for everyone to win. im selling a formula for EVs to run closer. So the casual hang out more time and have just a little more chance to win once in a while. While providing the game of a logical framework relatable not only to gamblers but also skillbased games addicts.

I understand i will be "fighting" not only MA but also the players who are unconvinced that there is a better way.

 

[jetsina]

"fighting"... players who are unconvinced that there is a better way

...maybe pedantically I alter this to: "players who are convinced that there is no better way" (or choose to position themselves that way)

 

[Haruto Rat]

Both are true.

There's just enough markup to justify just a couple hours of hours daily, and thanks Great-Rat-In-The-Sky there isn't more because there are other things to do in the life than to grind a video game all day throughout.

 

[Gopher]

"... intentionally ..."

"... should ..."

Players drive the market, not the developers. (I already know why you'll claim otherwise, but it ain't so.) Market psychology is not usually understood well by its participants, because everybody sees it through their own eyes. The devs are already scampering to throw stuff after every sign of tiring, and every few years there is a round of sweeping changes to escalate the current meta in equipment and such. People acting collectively will always drive the market into rock bottom for the masses and to silly heights for a few, regardless what the devs come up with. If you have a magic formula to "create constant demand", they may have a job for you. But you wouldn't believe how many have tried already.

Players driving the market is partly false. MA controls supply which affects the price. Players have control over a part of the price, but a part of the price on a lot of items comes from the supply-caps MA put in.

 

[San]

Thank you all for the inputs so far.

I opted to debunk this post as I think it touches most points.
...

+1 for the effort and passion, whatever may come out of it. I've been submitting a lot of ideas, and drawn ridicule sometimes. Some of them made it into the game in one form or another. If you think you have something worth sharing, please don't get discouraged by a little skepticism.

 

[PreyNaika]

Just add a npc that consumes oils and gives tradeable pills and XP boosts

Leave the value of the pill lower then the consumed materials , add the diference into the global loot Pool (higher and more globals/hofs/ath) that returns in more shrapnel

Something like 2 ped animal oil give 1 pec 5 mg accu stim
3 ped animal oil give 1 pec 10 mg
5 ped give 1 pec 15 mg

Add some special pills that go above 100% skill increase who need more oils and in adition sweat

Oils will go up in no time
Pills got a botom line
Nanocubes go up

Just out of my head

 

[Deleted member 23278]

Asking such a question with just two pole options is ridiculous.
Playing and grinding away since 2008 thinking it would be worth while...it wasn't...that's the state of the game. I guess I'm a fool.
Further expansion to UR5 only makes me think it's for the purpose of being able to sell Entropia to someone else.

 

[Msturlese]

Just add a npc that consumes oils and gives tradeable pills and XP boosts

pills are from boxesm reducing Key sales is affcting MA revenues. wont happen

i see more something like "boosting myself" NPC
i put in 100 ped materials get back 98 ped uniammo and 2 ped TT skill (RANDOM SKILL)

that sinks, makes ppl stronger (to spend more)

making it a daily turn in for max 10.000 ped (200 tt skill)

it seems much but i got a modest skill pool and this month made 4000 ped TT skills
this can be extracting 1% to split MA and birth planet partner.
and can create a secondary skill market that provide mu to anyone
well i would sink ALL my loots in a similar NPC because i am a skill junkie

 

[PreyNaika]

pills are from boxesm reducing Key sales is affcting MA revenues. wont happen

i see more something like "boosting myself" NPC
i put in 100 ped materials get back 98 ped uniammo and 2 ped TT skill (RANDOM SKILL)

that sinks, makes ppl stronger (to spend more)

making it a daily turn in for max 10.000 ped (200 tt skill)

it seems much but i got a modest skill pool and this month made 4000 ped TT skills
this can be extracting 1% to split MA and birth planet partner.
and can create a secondary skill market that provide mu to anyone
well i would sink ALL my loots in a similar NPC because i am a skill junkie

Even better

I wuld spend all my peds trying to get that 2 ped Analysis

 

[San]

Asking such a question with just two pole options is ridiculous.

It is not much of a meaningful vote and clearly meant to polarize. Friend or foe, black or white, nothing else. You don't have to vote, however.

Playing and grinding away since 2008 thinking it would be worth while...it wasn't...that's the state of the game. I guess I'm a fool.

This applies to each and every game. Besides a valid pastime to relax, true achievers have no time for that, unless the game is one's main business.

Further expansion to UR5 only makes me think it's for the purpose of being able to sell Entropia to someone else.

It would be foolish not to have a retirement plan. I don't think they favour an outright sale, though. The team has been rejuvenated and to suggest a cashout is their set goal would assume a lot of cunning and putting up a show. (Given the "community" their project has attracted, I couldn't blame them if some of the original creators might harbour such thoughts.) If the UE5 change is successful and leads to visible growth, a hostile takeover is not impossible. I've experienced one and I'm glad not to work there any longer, but it was exciting to participate in building something that turned out desirable.

Also, every game with a forum I've come across has a "current state of the game" thread, or has them pop up regularly. Someone always thinks their own frustration is the frustration of the world (cf my sig, lol), but they're not always entirely wrong either and there can be meaningful discussions inside. For us, the situation of markups is always a hot topic. Any ideas are welcome, although I haven't seen one that didn't get swallowed in the same maelstrom, hence the jadedness. There are mechanisms of nature you can't beat.

 

[jwestonmoss]

no human enterprise can remain in place forever, it must advance, it must grow

EU should embrace that and find ways to improve and advance that will retain most/all of their playerbase, and attract new players as well

as to the MU issue, you have to break down what MU really is and what causes it. there are a few primary factors and secondary factors that affect MU

1. Demand for the material or item as an input
   1. Are there dailies or mission chains that consume this item
      1. Turn in X for Y item
      2. Craft (num) of X item
   2. Is the item that uses this material/item desirable?
      1. Desirable in what way?
         1. Powerful
         2. Efficient
         3. Convenient
         4. Visually Attractive (clothing, furniture)
2. Difficulty of obtaining material or item
   1. Drop Rates (low-chance wave loot)
      1. Another way to view this is a ped-cycle gate.
   2. Skill Gate (aka, only drops from very large mobs, or is ore buried very deep, or is a very high level BP)
   3. Seasonal/limited-time events
      1. Migration, Mayhem, etc
      2. Pay-for-entry dungeon instances
         1. like Toulan CUHOFs, RT raids, etc.
   4. Player interest in the activities that produce material or item
      1. If players are cycling in areas and in activities that produce a given item, that will affect the supply.
         1. Players searching for item X will also produce item Y, as a by-product, if it also drops.
         2. Some players can be "moved around the map" by MU opportunities, but others are motivated by dailies, by events, or even just their own established routine, among other things.
      2. If players don't like an area, or simply like it less than other places, this will affect supply.
   5. Real-human time investment
      1. Time-intensive, cycle-independent activities that produce items needed for in-demand activities
      2. Examples include: Sweating, fruit/stone-walking
      3. Key attribute is that it takes time and attention, and does not scale upward with cycle
      4. Thus MU on these items is effectively "paying someone for their time"
3. MA Buybacks?
   1. Like what they did for summer migration auctions
   2. I don't fully understand the mechanics behind this financially, seems like it would cost them money since they are basically paying MU to players directly
4. Substitution Effect
   1. There are many items in the game
   2. People tend to gravitate towards either the best or the cheapest
   3. If something is not good, it must be cheap or it won't sell at all
   4. All of those things together mean that substandard gear will rarely have appreciable MU and that affects the upstream economy of all its inputs
   5. Given the EP/Cube economy now, this means that anything below ~102% will just get cubed anyway.

What are some levers MA might pull here to improve MU?

Here are some possibilities.

1. Creating new crafting recipes, quests, or missions that require specific items or materials can drive up demand, especially if they are otherwise desireable
   1. Especially anything that adds real-human time-investment materials as an input
   2. Even if it is not those things, adding something new and shiny that requires a sink of materials tends to drive demand for people who want it now (not later), which generates MU
   3. Here's an idea: create a VSE MK2 that, as a rare wave drop, drops some specialized kind of sweat in addition to the normal sweat. Include it in a few useful BPs.
2. Create some once-per-day instances whose outputs get used in some good items or in important mission chains. This will create MU for the average player, assuming it is not skill-gated too hard.
3. Add some fun new aspect to EU that people are willing to invest PED in.

At the end of the day there's really only 2 things that reliably generate MU. People buying things for more than TT because it will enable them to have more fun, or because it will enable them to complete some goal they've set for themselves. Almost all of the variables and suggestions above address one or both of those things.