Question: What should MA do about loot waves?

[Legends]

There's been a lot of discussion lately about loot waves. The Polls I have done recently have consistently shown that about half of players want them gone. So naturally, it would be appropriate for me to follow this up with a Poll which specifically targets Loot Waves and what to do about them, so here is that Poll.

What should MA do about loot waves?

1. Current loot system works just fine - leave as is
If you believe nothing should be changed to current loot mechanics, pick this one

2. Perhaps there should be some content that is wave-free, i.e. more consistent loot
If you'd like to see some content without loot waves, but minimal change to how the loot system currently works in Entropia, then pick this one.

3. Split up content so it's about half and half - 50% with loot waves, and 50% without loot waves
Self-explanatory; if you'd like to have just as many options to play wave-free as there are with waves, then this is the one to pick.

4. Content with loot waves should be reduced; majority content should be wave-free
If you think that most of the content should be wave-free, but that there is still a place for the wave system, this is the one to pick.

5. I believe there is a place for loot waves within my profession; needs balancing though
If you like the system of waves in the loot system, but you think it needs to be balanced better, pick this one.

6.Some areas could benefit from loot wave mechanics but this should be isolated and optional content
If you think there is a place for loot waves within certain specialized pockets or areas of the game, and that these should be optional, i.e. not part of the main path of any given profession, then pick this one.

7. Resource waves ruin the Mining profession; remove all Resource waves
Self-explanatory; if you believe Resource waves ruins Mining, then pick this.

8. Waves of "Rares" in Hunting are totally unnecessary; they need to be removed
Pick this if you think the game would be better without item waves

9. BP drop waves need to be removed from Crafting; just make things more consistent for everybody
Pick this if you think BP drop waves ruins Crafting

10. Eliminate all waves! There should be no waves in this game, period!
Pick this one if you think there really should not be any waves at all in Entropia


I've given people the ability to pick 3 options, but if you want to make your vote weigh more, just pick 1, whichever is the one you agree with the most. If you are torn between 2, then pick them both.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

Picked the only sensible answer. Number 10.

 

[Legends]

Picked the only sensible answer. Number 10.

I haven't voted yet. It's hard tbh..

How would someone have a nice pay-day in a system without waves? What does that even look like? Would we all just be here losing about 3% of the PED we cycle? I cycle a ton of PED so I'm not too excited about that prospect... At least, in a system with waves, I know I hit a nice payback every now and then which kinda makes up for the shitty loot system most times.

So I have to think hard about this. You know what they say: Be careful what you wish for..

Maybe there is a place for loot waves, but I would probably agree with it's role being reduced drastically at this point.

 

[NewEra]

with missions

 

[Droob]

Drop rate should be based on chance rather than timing. If I'm farming a mob I should always be able to loot a particular item if it is on the drop table.

 

[Deepa2]

They need waves to control drop.
However, as a dev, I see no problem make waves so frequent that players wont notice.
Currently on Cyrene there is an event. And they have pills drop 2 minutes every hour. How stupid it is?

If you want to distribute 60 pills every hour. Make 30 waves every 2 minutes with limit of 3 pills to drop every wave. How hard it is?

 

[Droob]

I don't really understand the reasoning behind the 'control' over quantities of loot. Surely the market will adjust based on supply? If they want a rare drop, make it only drop on average over XXXXX amount of PED cycled or something.

 

[Art Jennifer]

They should do threshold biased.
xyz spent on mob means xyz will drop.
This will need to then be slightly dynamic to keep it “fun”


The more a player spends on the mob the more likely they will hit the rare.The do some fancy math with looter and eff.
This then gives a reason for people to grind more


Remove waves - they are easy to exploit

 

[Skorp]

Voted for 10.

Waves for the kind of loot you receive is just stupid. Time should never be a factor for the kind of loot you get. Players should be able to go afk/off whenever they like or need, without fear to miss the wave that only happens every 1 hour, 2 hr, 3 hr, whatever. Waves are only good for the 24 hr botter/player team. I shouldn´t be able to loot 40 x of "Item X" within 10 "good" minutes and then only "10 x of item X" within 3 "bad" hours.

However I do think MA´s lootdistribution system doesn´t allow a different way, i.e. with % based for every item, at the current state.

EDIT:
It was pretty frustrating to do the Monria/Toulan Crossover mission as some parts were waveloot only. At some point I started to login every 2-3 hrs. for just 5-10 minutes and loged out after it.

 

[Msturlese]

Picked the only sensible answer. Number 10.

being multiple allowed i piacked 8 9 10 waves are just silly all SLOTS of the loot table must be accessible at any time.
also man ual interaction of "loot balancing team" should be removed but put a "self adjusting rebalancing"

if a "Tier comoponent" has a 5% (totally example number) drop chance, if i kill 1million loot events, 50.000 items will drop. period. price will self adjust, and less interesting monster will be swapped for more interesting.

teh communist idea of "I CONTROL THE LOOT (and thereofre the Markup value) is BAD

the free market way (price will compensate for demand and offer) is the way

oils became Nanocubes, whoever believed a nanocube would jump to 110% had no idea of how much resources are TTed each day by a medium level hunter.... (or how much blausariam, zorn star, melchi, iron and in some moments Lysterium and oil are TTed)

 

[KimBoom]

a Slot machine should be a Slot machine

 

[Mika]

a Slot machine should be a Slot machine

Well, slot machines have a lot more transparacy, that would be a good start imo

 

[jetsina]

Just written in the happy hour thread a bit.
TLDR from it is if MA set a priority, but also a RND of 1 in 10 or whatever, they can spread out additions to the pool quickly, so not just mere seconds. Instead of under 2 min, a wave might last 20 mins, depending on how many players are active with what dps.
At least that would be an improvement, as would shortening the wave period to 5 minutes with much smaller influxes, for example.
There are various ways that devs with understanding of their own mechanics could improve what is terrible right now.
I mentioned the new Cyrene loots too, where the discoveries were so fast you can tell the settings are once again incredibly bad...

 

[moondog]

I have been playing almost daily for 12 years. I usually spend a minimum of 4 hours a day in game, often more and up to 12 hours a day on weekends. I understand the concept of waves. I even know when some of them happen. I cannot guarantee that I will be in the right place at the right time to hit a wave due to real life responsibilities, like a job, which I need to feed and clothe my child and to pay MA for the pleasure of playing this game. How can any -one be expected to be that dedicated to the game that they will plan their day around waves. It is ludicrous. I voted to remove waves entirely, the time at which you play should have no bearing on your loot return

 

[jetsina]

Ok, I'll try and approach this from different mentalities in this post.
If wave loot makes enough of a difference to adapt playstyles towards it, what will happen in different circumstances?
If waves come in not less than 45 mins of each other, players might decide to move to an alternative mob for some of their time, and return close to a new expected wave, or just do nothing for 30 mins or more.
If the wave lasts a few minutes, they may even decide to wait for clues in the system and then quickly move across (or kickstart an alt that is patiently waiting in the right spot!)
If the wave only lasts for seconds, then players have to start killing when the wave becomes likely and hope one kill is well timed. Alternatively they might kill but not loot a few mobs in a queue, to loot them in quick succession when a waves hits. As unlooted mobs only stay around for a couple of mins, the players may have to take out part of the queue and add to it in rotation, but it's still a strategy...

We have this basic scenario as it is. If MA changed waves to every 2 mins, players wouldn't completely stop doing a mob, but might considerably slow down right after a wave and then speed up again, trying to hit waves with their kills.
Some might like this even less than now and leave the game in anger at being 'forced' too much if they wish to play 'intelligently/wisely?' MA could randomise the new wave even more, in the same way that trees respawn with a RND, or the rarer rangers on Cyrene now, etc etc. This RND would be between seconds and minutes, however, with whatever desired average for MA flows.
I don't know if MA can completely control the interaction of the 'loot injector' and the database at a fine scale, or if all loots are updated in one go. It seems to be done pretty universally right now. Could it be changed, or do the current devs not have that kind of 'black box knowledge' any more? I don't think that is ridiculous, by the way, as I know of black box systems using ANNs where only some settings can be changed. The black box itself may not be adjusted. Not that I expect that here, however. I assume MA can change interactions with the database if they want to.

 

[mastermesh]

Waves are envisioned as progressive slot machine mechanics, but really are more like slap jack in the current iteration... Those that aren't on the table when the cards are played get mad when they decided to go play on the slot machine hoping to win the progressive jackpot, but Mindark has said over and over there is no personal loot pool so the pregressive side of things isn't there evne though some think it is. When the gods of this virtual universe open the heavenly doors golden showers rain only on those that are at the right place at the right time.

 

[ZPF]

Mindark has said over and over there is no personal loot pool

Has MA ever defined "personal loot pool"? What do we think it means?
One way to interpret this statement is "loot is not a closed-loop system for each avatar".
That could be true. But it doesn't tell us much.

I think people have taken this as a blanket statement that individual returns are not tracked or looked at in any way shape or form.
That's a very different statement from "no personal loot pool".

Not trying to get into conspiracy theories or "chosen avatars" here.
IMO the language is vague and it's difficult to draw any meaningful conclusions from it.

 

[messi91]

Has MA ever defined "personal loot pool"? What do we think it means?

Mindark make accurate statements at least I have a version of what they say for anything that makes sense for me and it works, only very few actually read them properly and know what they actually means because they pay attention to what they say and play the game.
At the end of the day nothing surprise me anymore as long as after 4 years people confuse left with right and dpp with eff.

 

[GermanMan]

After almost 6 years of playing, I know nothing about loot waves. I don't know how, where and why and I'm not really interested.

 

[ProActive Mango]

Drop rate should be based on chance rather than timing. If I'm farming a mob I should always be able to loot a particular item if it is on the drop table.

Ok sorry to burst everyones bubbel here... but here comes the hard facts. Mindark cant add rare loot as "chance" cuz then it would become gambling. In order to not become gamble loot needs to havea pattern.
So the more you interact with the game the more good shit you get. Decay more and get more good stuff. Why do you think that the ybers running around with mega weapons with mega decay and is looting gg items everytime.

Secret to loot

The big secret to loot unlimited gears is big turn over, the more you turn over the more the game will give you back (not in ped) but in good ul items. You get your avg 95% return as any other but high turnover forces you into the "good" side of the loot algoritm. Enjoy.

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

Game cant give rares as chance, then game becomes gambling.
Loot needs to have a pattern, skills + decay + mob + gear = diffrent outcomes.

 

[Seppo69]

Ok sorry to burst everyones bubbel here... but here comes the hard facts. Mindark cant add rare loot as "chance" cuz then it would become gambling. In order to not become gamble loot needs to havea pattern.
So the more you interact with the game the more good shit you get. Decay more and get more good stuff. Why do you think that the ybers running around with mega weapons with mega decay and is looting gg items everytime.

Secret to loot

The big secret to loot unlimited gears is big turn over, the more you turn over the more the game will give you back (not in ped) but in good ul items. You get your avg 95% return as any other but high turnover forces you into the "good" side of the loot algoritm. Enjoy.

www.planetcalypsoforum.com

Game cant give rares as chance, then game becomes gambling.
Loot needs to have a pattern, skills + decay + mob + gear = diffrent outcomes.

If we would be talking about tt-returns I would agree, but rare drops have only MU as value so I don't think it matters for gamble aspect.

Also that is why it's kinda hard for me to believe that tt loot is completely random on avatar level. Isn't that as gamble as it gets.. nowdays we atleast have skills affecting it but before not even that

 

[Art Jennifer]

If any player can work out when the loot will drop and exploit that for gain… We have a problem.

Therefore we have a problem.

Gear and skills should play a bigger factor.

 

[The Great Adventurer]

If any player can work out when the loot will drop and exploit that for gain… We have a problem.

Therefore we have a problem.

Gear and skills should play a bigger factor.

EntropiaLife came into existence so a group of players could do just that.

 

[ProActive Mango]

Yea, i know some ppl that can predict big loots and unlimited drops. Its very unsettling how they do it again and again with "gamble" crafts, strongboxes or ul loot from hunting(Wave). But who im i to interupt their insane withdraws from the game.

 

[SoberPhil]

I voted 1 and 10. Sorry, Legends, now you're gonna have to live with that

But in all seriousness, I don't see how they can fix it. If you remove the waves, then what? Everything's random, or more quasi-random than now, wouldn't they risk running into regulatory issues? And how would they control supply if rarer items are available all the time?

Imagine item X has a TT of 1 PED and MU of 5k, so one sells for 50 PED. Supply is limited and waved which allows to maintain the MU at a somewhat consistent level. Now the waves are removed, dropchance set to 1%: Player1 kills 100 mobs, loots item X, stops hunting, all players start doing the same thing, MU of item X is now at 200%, who's the winner here? Imagine the same scenario with 50 24/7 hunters... now there's no more MU on anything, you just recycle all your loot into nanocubes and sell for 101%.

 

[Seppo69]

I voted 1 and 10. Sorry, Legends, now you're gonna have to live with that

But in all seriousness, I don't see how they can fix it. If you remove the waves, then what? Everything's random, or more quasi-random than now, wouldn't they risk running into regulatory issues? And how would they control supply if rarer items are available all the time?

Imagine item X has a TT of 1 PED and MU of 5k, so one sells for 50 PED. Supply is limited and waved which allows to maintain the MU at a somewhat consistent level. Now the waves are removed, dropchance set to 1%: Player1 kills 100 mobs, loots item X, stops hunting, all players start doing the same thing, MU of item X is now at 200%, who's the winner here? Imagine the same scenario with 50 24/7 hunters... now there's no more MU on anything, you just recycle all your loot into nanocubes and sell for 101%.

Why 1% and not 0,0003%? And there can be hard cap for some items without waves too.

 

[atomicstorm]

EntropiaLife came into existence so a group of players could do just that.

This is true + the ability to capitalize on it to gain access to the data.

 

[Ivo Jahrumble]

Why 1% and not 0,0003%? And there can be hard cap for some items without waves too.

I remember a time when you could actually find your "regular" claims of redulite, not to many not to little, at most we would hit a 50 pedder global for brags. Perfectly balanced as things should be.. not anymore

 

[Gopher]

I voted 1 and 10. Sorry, Legends, now you're gonna have to live with that

But in all seriousness, I don't see how they can fix it. If you remove the waves, then what? Everything's random, or more quasi-random than now, wouldn't they risk running into regulatory issues? And how would they control supply if rarer items are available all the time?

Imagine item X has a TT of 1 PED and MU of 5k, so one sells for 50 PED. Supply is limited and waved which allows to maintain the MU at a somewhat consistent level. Now the waves are removed, dropchance set to 1%: Player1 kills 100 mobs, loots item X, stops hunting, all players start doing the same thing, MU of item X is now at 200%, who's the winner here? Imagine the same scenario with 50 24/7 hunters... now there's no more MU on anything, you just recycle all your loot into nanocubes and sell for 101%.

A way to control supply would be to have an algorithm that slowly decreases chance to loot as more items are in circulation and then increases chance to loot as the items are used/tt'd. This could be a good solution to replace waves entirely.

 

[jetsina]

A problem with that is people who craft using rare mats at unusual and rare times, then run out quickly to harvest the increased loot before too many people notice. This has been done on various capped stuff, so I'd be wary of that as a solution, as it is already present in game...

I believe part of the algo can be set to increase drop chances per mob the higher the amount of something in the loot pool. When 10 of something with a reasonable chance of dropping are added, for example, and I am the only hunter around, my chances slowly go from very high to low as I exhaust the pool after each injection. This addition to the general algo is not always used in the settings, though.
I have even noticed that some hunters will apparently decide to stop after 8 loot events (as the gains become less and less on average), so that I may log on and get the tail end whilst trying to see where the timings are at until a new wave comes. Generally this has been out of interest in how things work, as I really dislike playing along and adapting my playstyle to waves, but I do admit to at least partially adapting what I do sometimes...

If new injections were limited better over many waves, crafters couldn't do the sneakiness so effectively. Then the approach may be ok, yes.

Additional edit: the discoveries of cyrene juices all at the event start were an example of terrible initial algo implementation I think, maybe because of the above, but if waves after the initial supply only contain 2 of each juice, or whatever, the lower loot chance factor per item left in the pool appears to be working quite well. I was able to loot a few of the lowest juices at times that did not appear to be 'predictably wavey', just as other loots have also managed to follow a better spread in my experience. It IS possible with the current system, if it is treated right and not set by 'cough' individuals who...