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Loot related to the cost of the kill - Eco goess out of the window!

Ive done a lot of testing on this subject in the last year and I can say that eco is not 100% of the equation but 100% of cost spend is not either.

One insane test I have done is about 5000 peds cycled with TT hand gun and e15 which at .409 eco I should have been loosing my ass off vs p4+a104 eco of 2.947. I should have had 13% return with those numbers. I had 4000 ped loot returned or 80%.

Another test I did was 10K cycled with Maddox iV with beast. That ended with a 80% tt return as well.

These test with a bunch of other test has led me to these hypothesis.

1) There is a penalty on weapons when you have not maxed their Hit (Less then 10/10 hit ability) but there is low or no penalty for less then 100% dmg on a weapon. Case in point if you use a Weapon that you have maxed the damage but the hit is in SIB you will have worse returns. Vice versa if you have a weapon that is maxed hit but sib Damage you should get normal tt returns.

2) The amount of tt you spend to kill a mob with a max weapon (even overamping or using low dps weapons to allow regen) effects the loot per mob. But overall there may be a small penalty for overamping too much or letting mob regen too much.

3) Penalties for unmaxed hit, overamping, too much regen etc may be capped at 80% tt return overtime (vs 90% tt return for proper play).

4) MU you pay on a gun will effect returns more then base eco of gun.

5) Fap and Armor decay does not effect short term loot (I know one person who was really lucky attribute their luck to payback from a alot of fapping during a fap service) so that decay may lead to more ubers down the road. But for day to day loot the more you spend on defense the worse your return.

6) Each hit you make on the mob and the cost you spend to make that hit determines the mobs base loot. If you miss because of lag, or the game, you will not have that ped returned to you and in effect the misses is how MA makes their money. This would mean unmaxed hit ability would cost you TT because of misses, but unmaxed damage still costs the same per hit made and in effect takes you more peds to kill the mob which leads to higher avg loot per mob.
 
I can't say, conclusively, whether eco improves returns on its own - I just don't have the data.

But what I can say is that being eco allows one to kill more mobs for the same number of peds spent - allowing one to spend less to achieve their "long run" returns. This also gives players a chance to hit a big global/HoF with fewer PEDs cycled.

Or maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm just a noob after all! :laugh:
 
I have used unl non sib and unl sib items. In both instances i get back 80-93% returns the majority of the time. If you take unl non sib I do lose more money killing the same amount of mobs, as it takes more money to kill the mobs. so the 10-20% lost is more. When i use unl non sib guns I like to use higher dmg/sec guns so cost a hour does go up.

when doing mission mobs with a bad mu return I go the economy route as i want to cut losses as much as possible. Gives me the ability to kill more mobs for a lesser cost using sib weapons.
 
PopFuzz said:
3) Penalties for unmaxed hit, overamping, too much regen etc may be capped at 80% tt return overtime (vs 90% tt return for proper play).
Click to expand...

If this one is correct, it makes the rest superfluous, doesn't it? Maybe this cap is the explanation for all the rest of it.
 
AtamiKiangola said:
The good thing is the system is about "relative" compared to others. So the more players play uneco, the more eco players will benefit. With that in mind I ask everyone to play as uneco as possible ;)
Click to expand...

I belive this 2. Insane profits for a while when they introduced the the (L) sib. People who stayed oldschool with not maxed weapons lost. Those who adapted made alot of goodie peds untill the loot was dry.

More decay ofc gives you more loot but there must be a cap. Using EP-38 on snables with E15 just cant get you a stable return. Sure longterm everything might work out regardless of equip but then your pedcard would need to be bottomless?
 
Nobody has any conclusive data about this and everyone has different opinions. This conversation will never end :)

If someone wants to do a FULL test of this, I can help capture the data with my software.

It will produce output in this format:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spr...NvdG5ualJtaXNNRjExa0VTazB1cHVZVmc&output=html

.. but also full loot/item details per mob.

I don't think anything could be considered as conclusive unless there were over 20000 kills from the same mob from the same person, though.

Why don't I do it myself? I don't have the time or motivation to research something that seems as unlikely as what has been suggested.
 
Kinda yah. It would make those who say using uneco is not that bad correct while those who say eco is the way to profit correct as well. But I also think you can go below this cap with defense cost, unmaxed hit, land taxes etc.

Still on a mob to mob basis you will see a larger per mob loot if you overamp, under eco, or regen the mob.

For instance with the tt handgun and E15 you will see loot that looks like Argo loot on small combibos. On Itumatrox each loot was 7-12 peds or looked more like fresco loot etc. On baby drones it will look like atrox or allo.

I would suggest anyone try the tt handgun and e-15 amp (1 amp) on a mob the normally hunt that is kinda small and just see what happens it will change how you think of the game.

Oleg said:
If this one is correct, it makes the rest superfluous, doesn't it? Maybe this cap is the explanation for all the rest of it.
Click to expand...
 
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PopFuzz said:
Kinda yah. It would make those who say using uneco is not that bad correct while those who say eco is the way to profit correct as well. But I also think you can go below this cap with defense cost, unmaxed hit etc.

Still on a mob to mob basis you will see a larger per mob loot if you overamp, under eco, or regen the mob.

For instance with the tt handgun and E15 you will see loot that looks like Argo loot on small combibos. On Itumatrox each loot was 7-12 peds or looked more like fresco loot etc. On baby drones it will look like atrox or allo.

I would suggest anyone try the tt handgun and e-15 amp (1 amp) on a mob the normally hunt that is kinda small and just see what happens it will change how you think of the game.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Maybe I will spend some time testing this then if the differences are as big as you say they are.

Pick a mob you recommend and i'll hunt them over the weekend. Hopefully get a few others to help too. Results will be as you see above, one sheet for each weapon.

From that we should be able to have a good idea of average loot and average cost per setup on a mob-by-mob basis.

Which mob do you recommend?

Edit: Also which two weapons? keeping in mind that I'd like to keep this cheap.
 
Mikeemooo said:
Nobody has any conclusive data about this
Click to expand...

I don't think any amount of data could truly be conclusive on this issue but there are people who have very substantial data, though they may not have shared it (if only for practical reasons).

You can be sure that Poppy's findings are based on actual data, he doesn't just make this shit up :D
 
Oleg said:
I don't think any amount of data could truly be conclusive on this issue but there are people who have very substantial data, though they may not have shared it (if only for practical reasons).

You can be sure that Poppy's findings are based on actual data, he doesn't just make this shit up :D
Click to expand...

Sure, let me rephrase:

99% of peoples facts on the forums are based on feelings. :)

No disrespect towards PopFuzz - it wasn't aimed at him at all.
 
Oppalo and e15 is a huge uneco combo and will be a dps everyone has used alot so I recommend that weapon. Any small mob is good. Daikiba, combibo, chirpies. If its 10-40 pecs a kill its a good test subject. Anything bigger takes too long to cycle through the mobs and 150 kills or more is needed to see a cycle.

Since most of the amp will be overkill or no dmg dealt you will see the high costs per damage done something like 3-4 times the cost to Oppalo and A101 with the same DPS. And in return you will see avg loots increase alot.

Mikeemooo said:
Hmm. Maybe I will spend some time testing this then if the differences are as big as you say they are.

Pick a mob you recommend and i'll hunt them over the weekend. Hopefully get a few others to help too. Results will be as you see above, one sheet for each weapon.

From that we should be able to have a good idea of average loot and average cost per setup on a mob-by-mob basis.

Which mob do you recommend?

Edit: Also which two weapons? keeping in mind that I'd like to keep this cheap.
Click to expand...
 
Mikeemooo said:
Sure, let me rephrase:

99% of peoples facts on the forums are based on feelings. :)

No disrespect towards PopFuzz - it wasn't aimed at him at all.
Click to expand...

And 77.83% of statistics are made up on the spot. :)
 
Very interesting findings PopFuzz. I wonder if this uneco-ness also applies to ridiculous amounts of overkill. Maybe I should kill daikiba youngs with my 355 damage a shot rocket launcher and see how loot compares (between 6 and 12 times overkill per shot :D)
 
Hijacker27 said:
Very interesting findings PopFuzz. I wonder if this uneco-ness also applies to ridiculous amounts of overkill. Maybe I should kill daikiba youngs with my 355 damage a shot rocket launcher and see how loot compares (between 6 and 12 times overkill per shot :D)
Click to expand...

No Loot mobs make this extremely un-eco but you may get a 1k uber to make up for losses. Most likely though the number of no loot mobs and limit for average return on Daikiba loots will make you lose a lot of peds.

Just go to a big mob very quickly after and use an eco weapon to get losses back. 99.9% guaranteed to work 0.98% of the time. :tongue2:
 
PopFuzz said:
4) MU you pay on a gun will effect returns more then base eco of gun.
Click to expand...

This would make Gauss weapons give very good returns? Same for say AL22 Lupus/AL24 Canis vs LR53.

Misses vs hits determining the loot ... maybe. Certainly it explains why getting a lot of misses seems to collerate with getting bad loot.
 
PopFuzz said:
4) MU you pay on a gun will effect returns more then base eco of gun.
Click to expand...
This must be "The MU you pay for a weapon is lost"?

As there's no way MA could track how much MU you paid for a specific item and give you accordingly larger loot, especially as trades can be done PvP, it's the only logical interpretation I can see. Still, a verification of the interpretation would be appreciated.
 
tamlin said:
This must be "The MU you pay for a weapon is lost"?

As there's no way MA could track how much MU you paid for a specific item and give you accordingly larger loot, especially as trades can be done PvP, it's the only logical interpretation I can see. Still, a verification of the interpretation would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

I don't think he's saying that.

Remember returns are against spend.

Weapon decay/ammo per hunt: 200 PED
Weapon markup: 10 PED
Loot: 170 PED
Return: 80.95%

vs.

Weapon decay/ammo per hunt:: 200 PED
Weapon markup: 30 PED
Loot: 170 PED
Return: 73.91%


He's saying that markup has a bigger effect on lower return BECAUSE it's not tracked by MA. Suggesting this:

Weapon decay/ammo per hunt: 220 PED <-- higher recorded cost
Weapon markup: 10 PED
Loot: 180 PED <-- higher loot
Return: 78.26%
 
tamlin said:
This must be "The MU you pay for a weapon is lost"?

As there's no way MA could track how much MU you paid for a specific item and give you accordingly larger loot, especially as trades can be done PvP, it's the only logical interpretation I can see. Still, a verification of the interpretation would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

MA pretty much sets the MU on weapons by controlling the drops and availability of materials (cost to click w/markup). However, at les so far I have treated MU as lost and written it down at the time of purchase.
 
Some interesting theories proposed by Popfuzz, which are certainly are of interest to me as I use a non-maxed hit weapon. It will be intriguing to see how mikeemoo tests go. I have no theory of my own to promote, but I was just reading noiseless's extensive hunting blog/thread. He uses a MK5 me at around level 70 hit I think, and his tt return is at 89-90%.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?168760-Noiseless-Hunting-Log

If missed shots are all returned to MA, which is an extra 3% missed for Noiseless, and dmg eco doesnt matter as it's all returned to the player, I cant see how Noiseless would be achieving a 89-90% tt return rate, surely it would be in the region of 87%. My apologies to Popfuzz and others if I have misunderstood what you are saying, as it's fairly complex :).
 
What I mean by this is all MU you pay gets lost to other players. But If you use a high eco gun with no MU or a low eco gun with no mu as long as your maxed on the hit you will most likely get the same results or a much smaller different in loot then the eco would suggest.

tamlin said:
This must be "The MU you pay for a weapon is lost"?

As there's no way MA could track how much MU you paid for a specific item and give you accordingly larger loot, especially as trades can be done PvP, it's the only logical interpretation I can see. Still, a verification of the interpretation would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
 
No the opossite the more MU you pay for a weapon the worse you will do regardless of what the eco says.

remontoire said:
This would make Gauss weapons give very good returns? Same for say AL22 Lupus/AL24 Canis vs LR53.

Misses vs hits determining the loot ... maybe. Certainly it explains why getting a lot of misses seems to collerate with getting bad loot.
Click to expand...
 
I suspect overkill does get returned in your peak loots. but im not 100% sure the effect, using a SGA launcher on small mobs one at a time is one test I wanted to do and would prob change my opinion a little one way or another depending on results.

Hijacker27 said:
Very interesting findings PopFuzz. I wonder if this uneco-ness also applies to ridiculous amounts of overkill. Maybe I should kill daikiba youngs with my 355 damage a shot rocket launcher and see how loot compares (between 6 and 12 times overkill per shot :D)
Click to expand...
 
I could be wrong I have not done extensive testing with weapons at level 70 hit. That being said My idea on DMG ability not effecting loot was from my experience using alot of weapons in DMG sib. In addition my data on old school weapons show that my tt return drops closer to the hit percentage drop in eco then how much the damage effects me. What I see in Noisless thread hes only 1% or so below 90% which is close to the few percent of eco loss from his lower hit then the much larger eco drop that being 70 DMG shows on paper.



|| Sachi || said:
Some interesting theories proposed by Popfuzz, which are certainly are of interest to me as I use a non-maxed hit weapon. It will be intriguing to see how mikeemoo tests go. I have no theory of my own to promote, but I was just reading noiseless's extensive hunting blog/thread. He uses a MK5 me at around level 70 hit I think, and his tt return is at 89-90%.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?168760-Noiseless-Hunting-Log

If missed shots are all returned to MA, which is an extra 3% missed for Noiseless, and dmg eco doesnt matter as it's all returned to the player, I cant see how Noiseless would be achieving a 89-90% tt return rate, surely it would be in the region of 87%. My apologies to Popfuzz and others if I have misunderstood what you are saying, as it's fairly complex :).
Click to expand...
 
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PopFuzz said:
I suspect overkill does get returned in your peak loots. but im not 100% sure the effect, using a SGA launcher on small mobs one at a time is one test I wanted to do and would prob change my opinion a little one way or another depending on results.
Click to expand...

If you want to use my tier 4 SGA rocket to test this, you can :D
 
One more thing that I was just thinking. I call it "The Lazy Balance Team Theory"
The balancing team must make all guns and chips and melee weapons and every weapon you can imagine in game (melee decay only the weapon; guns decay the weapon + atachments + enhancers + the ammo; MF decay the chip + the implant + the ammo). And instead of doing this enourmous work, they can just make the loot to balance things. May be not 100%, but still help the uneco players to play almost for the same cost as the eco players.
 
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