Loot related to the cost of the kill - Eco goess out of the window!

[jdegre]

though even with a low minimum and a high missrate IMO there is a bigger chance the cost of MU is even greater
unless the MU is very low

but apis for example you burn those fast and no way you'll miss enought to cover the MU on an apis using a non sib weapon

ok, let me put more numbers into the table

TT-wise, the following two setup reflect _exactly_ the example i've put before:

- DOA Loudmouth + Dante, 7.5/7.5 (hit/dmg) -> 3k peds spent at TT
- Apis + Dante, 10/10 (hit/dmg) -> 2.7k peds spent at TT

Those two setups deal exactly the same total dmg for the amount spent, and therefore, you kill the same number of mobs.

Now, how much MU do I have to pay for the 2nd setup? -> 88 peds, with apis at 125%

So, it's not even the 300 peds difference I wrote before. In this example is 88 peds. However, according to the claims above, the first setup is better because I pay nothing to others, while in the 2nd setup I pay 88 peds to others.

Again, not saying ermik is right or wrong. I simply have a hard time understanding the logic of a system that behaves like that.

(Numbers taken from entropedia, I've made the calcs rather fast, so I hope I did them ok...)

 

[minim]

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

You forget the option to run a UL SIB weapon i think Then you can play with only TT and a maxed gun.

 

[Leona]

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

I really was only pointing out the thing with the reheal mobs in your example jdegre. I don't agree with ermik, but i see where he comes from and how he gets the impression and it is sure not the worst way to play it, the savest way anyway.

But playing it save, and thats quite easy with low markup L guns in the lower dps range nowadays, isn't a proof that the system works based on TT input. Even the heavy overamp test doesn't proof it.

 

[Leona]

You forget the option to run a UL SIB weapon i think Then you can play with only TT and a maxed gun.

Even those come with a DPP penalty.

It is a curse for mid level players. One does want to believe in eco but simply has no way to try it out until skilled up very high (except with imkII maybe). And the people who would know, the ones who have above 3 eff. eco just don't tell a lot. And if they do, can you trust them or are they just protecting theyr gear and skill value.

 

[minim]

Even those come with a DPP penalty.

It is a curse for mid level players. One does want to believe in eco but simply has no way to try it out until skilled up very high (except with imkII maybe). And the people who would know, the ones who have above 3 eff. eco just don't tell a lot. And if they do, can you trust them or are they just protecting theyr gear and skill value.

That is true. But I def. notice a difference with running HL8 UL+A106 rather than Apis+dante But u know my numbers

 

[johan roadkill]

ok, let me put more numbers into the table

TT-wise, the following two setup reflect _exactly_ the example i've put before:

- DOA Loudmouth + Dante, 7.5/7.5 (hit/dmg) -> 3k peds spent at TT
- Apis + Dante, 10/10 (hit/dmg) -> 2.7k peds spent at TT

Those two setups deal exactly the same total dmg for the amount spent, and therefore, you kill the same number of mobs.

Now, how much MU do I have to pay for the 2nd setup? -> 88 peds, with apis at 125%

So, it's not even the 300 peds difference I wrote before. In this example is 88 peds. However, according to the claims above, the first setup is better because I pay nothing to others, while in the 2nd setup I pay 88 peds to others.

Again, not saying ermik is right or wrong. I simply have a hard time understanding the logic of a system that behaves like that.

(Numbers taken from entropedia, I've made the calcs rather fast, so I hope I did them ok...)

yeah your numbers seems accurate so the diffrence isn't that big but in the long run segnificant..atleast if loot made sense

as to where the system behaves a surtin way i can offer a guess

it isn't a secret EU is using a ponzi scheme where one loss pays another and so forth creating the illusion of money in the system where acctually the sum is alot less

now this system can't continue it is doomed to fail

so how to keep the system going and not get thrown in jail?

you throw in another variable (Markup) Markup gives a false sense of value as long as it is inside the system, and when sold it is paied by a participant so MA never have to worry about paying big amounts of money untill some1 quits(so Markup crashes = win for MA.) then make the loot behave in a "Dynamic" way enabeling people to profit at an even higher cost of others.. this way the amount of money in the system remains unchanged but since people are profiting it's no longer a scheme it's RCE.

another fun food for thought is:

why is the number of active participants a company secret?
only thing i can think of is that the number of active participants are so "few" that MA's anual income is too big, even at 800K participants activly playing not every1 will be depositing the anual income would per person be pretty massive

so few players and a massive income?

MA would be classified as a casino and pay huge fines for dodging the rules and taxes of a casino or maybe even for scamming people (you can't say that in here so FYI purely speculation no1 said anything)

my 2 valueless pecs

 

[ermik]

I think ermik does in fact think that skills matter since he said "tt spent is returned 100% over time [minus] registered misses."

My apologies if I misunderstood.

correct , skills have a huge impact on your possibility to hit more often and get hit more less , ( as i stated as important factors ) so skills are important.

cheers

ermik

 

[ermik]

well, what i wanted is to confirm the claim that "system deals with TT values", even when you are using a highly un-maxed weapon.

in my example, the first setup costs 3k at TT, and in the second it costs 2.7k in TT. those 300 peds difference may be due to having a very low minimum dmg and having much higher frequent misses with the first setup, than with a maxed weapon (2nd setup).

therefore, if you guys claim that the first setup is better, it has to be because the loot return is strictly bound to TT expenses, regardless of how uneco or how unskilled you are. which is the claim of the OP, if i got it right. and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

no no no , first we must define what is tt spent?

My opinion changes abit from time to time , as i discover and try new things , but these are my conclusions so far.

When you shoot a mob , you have 2 types of registered events , HIT ( resulting and shown as a inflicted damage ) and MISS ( Resulting in a yellow line MISS )

What im saying is , that your long term loot is related to the amount of tt inserted as inflicted damage hits, and the tt inserted as Yellow line misses are inserted into the "loot pool" , from wich MA does stuff we dont know.

Markup is something the lootsystem dont care , or is aware of, markup is a agreement between players.

Other types of tt spent , armor , fap , pvp shooting , accidental shots in the air etc etc , im still working on determinating weither or not they are subject to more focus or not.

However i have done tests that lead me to belive that the system does not work with "hp killed" , because i have gotten results from tests that would not have been if system did not deal with tt values, and those results are not from a "200 ped hunt".......

UL non sib wepons used without maxxed skills , are giving more misses so in my world they suck , just for the record for all those who confuse my tt spent with it beeing ok to use UL non sib at non maxxed levels.

all im saying is , everyone should take the time to think , and try various things and see how the system responds.

cheers

ermik

 

[ermik]

also , adding this.

My theory states that 100% of tt inserted as damage dealt hits are returned.

Now question is ( so you can answer this yourselves )

What is the missrate of a maxxed out gun?

What is the community accepted avg % return over time? ( hint: what is the missrate for a maxxed out weapon? (%) )

cheers

ermik

 

[Xen]

also , adding this.

My theory states that 100% of tt inserted as damage dealt hits are returned.

Now question is ( so you can answer this yourselves )

What is the missrate of a maxxed out gun?

What is the community accepted avg % return over time? ( hint: what is the missrate for a maxxed out weapon? (%) )

cheers

ermik

If your hypothesis (a theory is well tested, accepted and established) is true, you should be able to go out with a total newb avatar with zero skills, with a terrible eco unlimited non-sib weapon and get a 80% tt return (80% being minimum hit rate). I suggest you try that.

 

[chaps]

DF should do a long term hunt with his purifier knife. That would give an interesting indication...

 

[Kerham]

and which i have a hard time to believe, tbh

Problem with eco is it shound't be regarded as carved in stone, nor it should be regarded in strict terms.

The term itself, the way of calculation and the appraised median values were all made-out by community along the way, with all the goods & flaws a community-built concept might have.

I honestly don't want to get into this argument, my personal experience serves me more than enough in this regard and I can't put anyone in my shoes to find 1 year of 2875 unamped nondepo more relevant than 3 years of breershit amped+depo regularly. (worth notice you'd have other 2 years to account for, like 75% of all my depos, mining amped stupidly and crafting weird ^^).

I'd like to add something to Pops' lines, which I find damn enlightening (especially acounting my own experience):

clicking shit on condition can ruin you even if you're hunting 4.0 dmg/pec mainstream.

1) There is a penalty on weapons when you have not maxed their Hit (Less then 10/10 hit ability) but there is low or no penalty for less then 100% dmg on a weapon.

I'd think that's the case for SIB guns, for nonSIB would be inverse, dmg being slightly more important than HA (but both have to be somewhere decent 3/10 or so at least). Didn't raised much data, was just not fun to shoot with too high SIB "not yet".

 

[Lorfat]

Alright, since we’re sharing theories, here’s another one:

Long term loot return = Cost of Hit inflicted * The % of your damage ability

 

[ermik]

If your hypothesis (a theory is well tested, accepted and established) is true, you should be able to go out with a total newb avatar with zero skills, with a terrible eco unlimited non-sib weapon and get a 80% tt return (80% being minimum hit rate). I suggest you try that.

who said i havent already?

cheers

ermik

 

[ermik]

If your hypothesis (a theory is well tested, accepted and established) is true, you should be able to go out with a total newb avatar with zero skills, with a terrible eco unlimited non-sib weapon and get a 80% tt return (80% being minimum hit rate). I suggest you try that.

adding: im testing more crazy ideas all the time , just ask brian , he gets to listen to it all in soc chat

cheers

ermik

 

[Xen]

who said i havent already?

cheers

ermik

Well, did you? Because I did (before this thread even existed) and I sure did not get 80% return.

 

[enda]

no no no , first we must define what is tt spent?

My opinion changes abit from time to time , as i discover and try new things , but these are my conclusions so far.

When you shoot a mob , you have 2 types of registered events , HIT ( resulting and shown as a inflicted damage ) and MISS ( Resulting in a yellow line MISS )

What im saying is , that your long term loot is related to the amount of tt inserted as inflicted damage hits, and the tt inserted as Yellow line misses are inserted into the "loot pool" , from wich MA does stuff we dont know.

Markup is something the lootsystem dont care , or is aware of, markup is a agreement between players.

Other types of tt spent , armor , fap , pvp shooting , accidental shots in the air etc etc , im still working on determinating weither or not they are subject to more focus or not.

However i have done tests that lead me to belive that the system does not work with "hp killed" , because i have gotten results from tests that would not have been if system did not deal with tt values, and those results are not from a "200 ped hunt".......

UL non sib wepons used without maxxed skills , are giving more misses so in my world they suck , just for the record for all those who confuse my tt spent with it beeing ok to use UL non sib at non maxxed levels.

all im saying is , everyone should take the time to think , and try various things and see how the system responds.

cheers

ermik

You are basically regurgitating Mikeemooo's theory, and giving no credit in the process. Mike's work was based on popfuzz's post, which he had the good grace to acknowledge.

Before you read Mike's thread you were making similar bold "know it all" statements, but, which, were at complete odds to what you say now.

i just love those " i cycled 50 ped now i know how the system works " threads.

loot is related to hp killed ( may also be other factors , but this one is the biggest factor )

kill the hp as cheap as possible and you will see close to 90-95% tt return after big enough cycle.

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?210405-Loot-related-to-the-cost-of-the-kill-Eco-goess-out-of-the-window!&p=2724358&viewfull=1#post272

 

[ermik]

Well, did you? Because I did (before this thread even existed) and I sure did not get 80% return.

for how big cycle did you test?

cheers

ermik

 

[ermik]

You are basically regurgitating Mikeemooo's theory, and giving no credit in the process. Mike's work was based on popfuzz's post, which he had the good grace to acknowledge.

Before you read Mike's thread you were making similar bold "know it all" statements, but, which, were at complete odds to what you say now.

Yes , Mikemoo made me look at my data from a different point of view.

All im saying is , test some things yourself , and see what results you get.

For example , cycle 20k ped on a "Trox young" size mob, and record all data.

Shoot 2k ped out in thin air , for example using mann mph with e-15 amp and autoshoot not hitting anything.

cycle 20k ped more on the same "Trox young" size mob, and record all data.

Isnt it interesting to see the results?


oh and btw , regarding giving credits , im too busy beeing excited about findings to have given this a thought , sorry about that if someone felt they was left out.

And the therory about hp killed aint far from tt spent on registered hits , i was just observing from another angle.

And i wasnt aware that we posted theories to get credits , i thought it was for the purpose of exploring how the system works, how naive of me

cheers

ermik

 

[enda]

Fair enough ermik. I think what has mudded the waters is that most guns have a very similar economy, so a damage dealt and cost per kill loot algo produce very similar results.

 

[ermik]

Fair enough ermik. I think what has mudded the waters is that most guns have a very similar economy, so a damage dealt and cost per kill loot algo produce very similar results.

Yes , they produce similar results wich make things harder to pin out , almost like it was made like that on purpose

cheers

ermik

 

[Az Bloodz]

Well some uneco MF Chip@ ~2,5 d/p vs a 3.0 d/p HG should do the trick. Though it's hard to record a big enough sample. Even at 20k cycled one medium sized HoF could change the result a lot and that's where I see the problem.

 

[|| Sachi ||]

Hopefully mikemoo will continue with his tests so we can know examine this theory more.

 

[enda]

Yes , they produce similar results wich make things harder to pin out , almost like it was made like that on purpose

cheers

ermik

Hehe, conspiracy time.

 

[Konve]

Let's add some more fuel on the fire.

On the one hand:
Amps didn't always have ammo burn. So they just decayed. Was loot better? Worse? Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

On the other hand:
Amps gained the 50 % limit to prevent the Opalo+big amp combo. I personally burned a few k PEDs with this and made a few hundred PED profit. Granted I kept no record and made quite a bit from markup. But was it "too eco" to be allowed? Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

The 1x0 axe used to have over 5 dmg/pec (max) (was it about 5.17? I am not 100 % sure anymore). It was changed. Was it "too eco" as well? A lot of people started using them once they found out. The way I recall it, it's when people starting hunting small argo en masse (maybe I just noticed them doing it by then). Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

 

[johan roadkill]

Let's add some more fuel on the fire.

On the one hand:
Amps didn't always have ammo burn. So they just decayed. Was loot better? Worse? Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

On the other hand:
Amps gained the 50 % limit to prevent the Opalo+big amp combo. I personally burned a few k PEDs with this and made a few hundred PED profit. Granted I kept no record and made quite a bit from markup. But was it "too eco" to be allowed? Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

The 1x0 axe used to have over 5 dmg/pec (max) (was it about 5.17? I am not 100 % sure anymore). It was changed. Was it "too eco" as well? A lot of people started using them once they found out. The way I recall it, it's when people starting hunting small argo en masse (maybe I just noticed them doing it by then). Has the system been 120 % changed since, so it's not connected?

don't forget the elc dmg that troxies were weak against

 

[Kerham]

don't forget the elc dmg that troxies were weak against

Now that's a first for me, care to elaborate?

 

[johan roadkill]

Now that's a first for me, care to elaborate?

A friend told me when he was playing, it was in 03 or something can't remember, that troxies were weak against elc and that axes gave an unfair advantage over them so it was removed... Or something like that was so long ago I hardly remember

 

[steffel]

A friend told me when he was playing, it was in 03 or something can't remember, that troxies were weak against elc and that axes gave an unfair advantage over them so it was removed... Or something like that was so long ago I hardly remember

i think you're mixing it up. axe 1x0 had a portion of elec damage, MA removed this part since it was not intended to be there and with like 5 dmg points extra the 1x0 was just über eco, be it versus argo or trox (while for soloing trox 1x0 was a bit weak, since mobs used to deal max dmg back then)

 

[Konve]

i think you're mixing it up. axe 1x0 had a portion of elec damage, MA removed this part since it was not intended to be there and with like 5 dmg points extra the 1x0 was just über eco

Oh yes it was the 5 extra dmg they removed. So the dmg/pec would have been 5,178 dmg/pec