How does mining tax work?

I have always wondered how mining tax in LA areas is actually calculated? for instance if I find duru, how does MA give the owner 3.99% and take 3.99% away from me? I cant wrap my head around the idea. Is there a different system they use? If someone can enlighten me that would be great

You drop a bomb, MA calculates your return, deducts the tax percentage and then finds the ore/enmat with the equivalent value.

Claim found, 50ped gazzurdite stone, tax is 4%. 50x0.04 = 52ped. Your claim before tax would of been 52ped after tax 50ped it was still a global based on the TT value. This is how I've known tax to work out. It takes out its cut or % out before giving you your loot, I think that is the only thing MA do. The money goes to the owner don't think MA intervere beyond that point. So MA gives you your loot - tax & - the possible 10% in TT overall.

In a more simplified form what hogfather said .

M Rufen Power said:

Claim found, 50ped gazzurdite stone, tax is 4%. 50x0.04 = 52ped. Your claim before tax would of been 52ped after tax 50ped it was still a global based on the TT value. This is how I've known tax to work out. It takes out its cut or % out before giving you your loot, I think that is the only thing MA do. The money goes to the owner don't think MA intervere beyond that point. So MA gives you your loot - tax & - the possible 10% in TT overall.

In a more simplified form what hogfather said .

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Also, important to note is that the LA owner receives PEDs (tt value that is already mentioned in the quote) and not ores/enmaters

or maybe loot engine generates 50 tt of ore, gives you 50 tt of ore in a global, but behind the scenes calculates your income as 52 ped, 2 ped being paid to the land owner.

Wisdom said:

or maybe loot engine generates 50 tt of ore, gives you 50 tt of ore in a global, but behind the scenes calculates your income as 52 ped, 2 ped being paid to the land owner.

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That would mean that MA would pay those 2 ped from its pocket - don't really see that ever happening.

and Mark - just call me Manny

Your calculation seems logical but what if my find consists in a single stone with a value of 3ped, how is the tax calculated in that situation? If my find was supposed to be two stones and one has been removed to pay the tax that makes a tax of 50%!

M Rufen Power said:

Claim found, 50ped gazzurdite stone, tax is 4%. 50x0.04 = 52ped. Your claim before tax would of been 52ped after tax 50ped it was still a global based on the TT value. This is how I've known tax to work out. It takes out its cut or % out before giving you your loot, I think that is the only thing MA do. The money goes to the owner don't think MA intervere beyond that point. So MA gives you your loot - tax & - the possible 10% in TT overall.

In a more simplified form what hogfather said .

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I don't think that is quite how it works. You are calculating tax based on the value of the loot after tax has already been taken out, which doesn't make sense. Using your example, I think it would be 52.08 * 0.04 = 2.08. So, a claim of 52.08 PED was generated and the 4% tax was subtracted, leaving you with a 50.00 PED claim.

langsuyar said:

Your calculation seems logical but what if my find consists in a single stone with a value of 3ped, how is the tax calculated in that situation? If my find was supposed to be two stones and one has been removed to pay the tax that makes a tax of 50%!

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EXACTLY what I was getting at... so they get money... but how is that deducted from me? do I loose a whole three ped stone? does it round up?

say I find an ore that is 3 peds... and I find 12 ped of it... the tax on the area is 10% so therefore I should receive 10.8 ped of a 3ped stone? how is that consistant? do I get 9 ped instead? do I lose an additional 1.8 ped?

langsuyar said:

Your calculation seems logical but what if my find consists in a single stone with a value of 3ped, how is the tax calculated in that situation? If my find was supposed to be two stones and one has been removed to pay the tax that makes a tax of 50%!

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You are right. Thats why you get shafted when mining on taxed LA´s. Some rare like ruga may become unhittable due to taxrate. Though by using higher amps the tax is more correctly drawn from your finds and your loss is less. 4% is what the LA owner makes but you are actually taxed somewhere between 4% and 50% just as you wrote.

RobBuona said:

Your question has already been answered.

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No it hasn't!

I'll quote the first line with a find of a single stone with a tt value of 3 ped

3ped stone, tax is 4%. 3x0.04 = 0,12 ped. Your claim before tax would of been ???ped after tax 3ped based on the TT value.

A single stone is worth 3ped how do they get those 0.12ped to pay the land owner in peds. Was my find initially of two stones and they have removed one to pay the tax, but if so what happens to the rest of the tt value? In that case do they give you the full claim and pay the tax to the land owner of their pocket and charge you the tax value somewhere else ?

Sircus said:

You are right. Thats why you get shafted when mining on taxed LA´s. Some rare like ruga may become unhittable due to taxrate. Though by using higher amps the tax is more correctly drawn from your finds and your loss is less. 4% is what the LA owner makes but you are actually taxed somewhere between 4% and 50% just as you wrote.

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Just saw your reply now...

If it is like that, as I ask above, and the land owner only recives his 4% than where are the other 46% going? (Rhetorical question)

langsuyar said:

No it hasn't!

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Yes, I know. I didn't quite understand what you were getting at. I already edited my post.

Tax goes out of the TT value once you get a "hit"
Type of ore/enmat gets calculated afterwards.

hogfather said:

Tax goes out of the TT value once you get a "hit"
Type of ore/enmat gets calculated afterwards.

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You were supposed to get ruga but you got lyst instead so they can pay the tax to the land owner!?!? (that explains why I never found ruga!)

langsuyar said:

You were supposed to get ruga but you got lyst instead so they can pay the tax to the land owner!?!? (that explains why I never found ruga!)

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hahaha, I think he may be the closest one here, I know you dont get shafted... there has to be some balance otherwise you would hit rock bottom every time you went to mine in a LA... There is still no good explanation so far though...

langsuyar said:

Your calculation seems logical but what if my find consists in a single stone with a value of 3ped, how is the tax calculated in that situation? If my find was supposed to be two stones and one has been removed to pay the tax that makes a tax of 50%!

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It's quite easy to program this situation so that your 3 Ped isn't taxed, but 3 Ped is added to the next find in the LA and the tax then deducted from the sum.

So no need to assume anyone doesn't find what they were supposed to.

chevrons said:

It's quite easy to program this situation so that your 3 Ped isn't taxed, but 3 Ped is added to the next find in the LA and the tax then deducted from the sum.

So no need to assume anyone doesn't find what they were supposed to.

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Now you are giving MA credit they dont deserve. There is so much that is easy to program that they seem incapable of doing.

This is actually, to me, the most plausible case... the tax is actually an average tax. You have a running total and what you are taxed is fluctuated on what you owe or are owed.

A good comparison would be hit rate... studies show hit rate will average 25% or so, but you will not get 25% consistently, it fluctuates.

What do you guys think? Plausible?

chevrons said:

It's quite easy to program this situation so that your 3 Ped isn't taxed, but 3 Ped is added to the next find in the LA and the tax then deducted from the sum.

So no need to assume anyone doesn't find what they were supposed to.

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Why has everyone gone off on a tangent? Rob 4% tax on a global is 2ped mate not 2.08. How was what I said wrong anyways it's the same as Manny said I just explained it backwards. 52ped claim before you find a hit LA takes out the tax 4% you now have 50ped left in "TT" & the type of find is then determined. How it does all that in a fraction of a second is beyond me to explain but that is the simple process. What's this now about a tax interval, wtf? . If tax moved/fluctuated as an interval imo nobody would bother with taxes or mining LA's.

langsuyar said:

Just saw your reply now...

If it is like that, as I ask above, and the land owner only recives his 4% than where are the other 46% going? (Rhetorical question)

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Same here, didnt think you would edit your post.

To answer the rhetorical question I dont know if its added to possible future claims or just lost. I personally think its lost. We know you are guaranteed a certain tt return if you play the game, but when you are not "playing" that return is not included. Like shooting your rifle in the air. You wont see those peds coming back to you. Probably the same here. The game has no memory of your lost surplus claim. Its probably conflicting code between the return system and tax system. Its probably an unknown bug. Another thing that convinces me that you wont get back the lost surplus is that (I think it was) Jimmy once proved that the biggest loss you can make as a miner is to not extract the claim once you have gotten it. He showed that you will not be compensated for those expired claims.

50% tax is only possible for small claims (Not talking small claimsize here) where the tt of the ore stone is high. If it was lyst then the game can correct the stones correctly to 4% tax.

You guys are thinking WAY too hard on this. Here is how it is set up:

Miner throws probe
MA calculates TT you will get
Based on that it subtracts the percentage of tax ex 3%
Then it takes that and puts it into an ore format that is closest to the payout example
678.60 ped hit shows up as a a 657PED global
After extraction you will have 657.972PEDs of ore

OFF TOPIC PART~~~~Each ped card is carried out to a decimal place PAST .xx PEDs to find out how much YOUR card has on it EXACTLY just purchase ammo until you cant any anymore.

Don't over think this, its way too complicated and time consuming to think that you get a predefined ore before the hit..

The programming that goes into this game is not all that complexed...

~Danimal

M Rufen Power said:

Why has everyone gone off on a tangent? Rob 4% tax on a global is 2ped mate not 2.08. How was what I said wrong anyways it's the same as Manny said I just explained it backwards. 52ped claim before you find a hit LA takes out the tax 4% you now have 50ped left in "TT" & the type of find is then determined. How it does all that in a fraction of a second is beyond me to explain but that is the simple process. What's this now about a tax interval, wtf? . If tax moved/fluctuated as an interval imo nobody would bother with taxes or mining LA's.

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Why is what I said confusing? Certainly it generates a base value, calculates tax, and then subtracts the taxed amount? Whereas you are saying it generates your total loot and then adds tax? I'm pretty sure tax is subtracted, not added.

or maybe the OOTO finds are makeups for the taxes that you've overpaid???

Not sure if I actually believe that, but it's a thought

Sircus said:

Same here, didnt think you would edit your post.

To answer the rhetorical question I dont know if its added to possible future claims or just lost. I personally think its lost. We know you are guaranteed a certain tt return if you play the game, but when you are not "playing" that return is not included. Like shooting your rifle in the air. You wont see those peds coming back to you. Probably the same here. The game has no memory of your lost surplus claim.

50% tax is only possible for small claims (Not talking small claimsize here) where the tt of the ore stone is high. If it was lyst then the game can correct the stones correctly to 4% tax.

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Are you really sure that game (server) do not keep track of your looses? In my opinion it does and in fact i think it is how the loot works. Everyone has his personal lootpool . At least it seems to work like this for me. Try wasting some cheap materials with nearly no markup in condition crafting (~200peds in TT that will give you back like ~50peds in TT) and then go out on a 150ped mining run unamped. It is really high chance you will end up with profit from mining mayby even with small global. And i really doubt it is a coincedence to get this work like this 8/10 times.
Of course i cannot prove this in any other way than statistics.

And according to this - i think that MA tax us 10% and LA owner sets their own tax. Question is:
- is the tax added to MA tax (10% + 4% = 14%)
- is it only LA tax there (4%)
- or is it that the taxes sum up to 10%
So far from my observation i tend to get 90% TT back no matter if i mine/hunt in LA or outside of it - so it seems that the least logical option three.

@edit:
so in my opinion the tax is taken from personal loot poll .

I know that those are very discusable two theories but it seems to work for me this way - i do not claim that those are 100% sure right .

Falagor

M Rufen Power said:

what's this now about a tax interval, wtf? . If tax moved/fluctuated as an interval imo nobody would bother with taxes or mining LA's.

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Than enlighten me using this example how do you get taxed when you receive a single stone with a value of 3 ped?
Using your example you would never hit a claim with single stone of ruga or other high tt ores using a reference tax of 4% you would need to hit at least 75ped so the system could add the tax if each stone had a value of 3ped...

RobBuona said:

Why is what I said confusing? Certainly it generates a base value, calculates tax, and then subtracts the taxed amount? Whereas you are saying it generates your total loot and then adds tax? I'm pretty sure tax is subtracted, not added.

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Did I say it added tax? No I didnt, if it seemed that way that was not my intention, bit weird tbh hm. Like I said I was working it out backwards.

langsuyar said:

Than enlighten me using this example how do you get taxed when you receive a single stone with a value of 3 ped? Using your example you would never hit a claim with single stone of ruga or other high tt ores using a reference tax of 4% you would need to hit at least 75ped so the system could add the tax if each stone had a value of 3ped...

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Ask support cause even me I'm not sure following this formula. Don't know how that works out I'm not a miner afterall . But either way tax would of been just 12pecs.

langsuyar is right... they have to have some average setup... that is the only logical explanation that has been given thus far.. you cant split ores and I highly doubt they are using a roof/floor function without some sort of due balance

langsuyar said:

Than enlighten me using this example how do you get taxed when you receive a single stone with a value of 3 ped?
Using your example you would never hit a claim with single stone of ruga or other high tt ores using a reference tax of 4% you would need to hit at least 75ped so the system could add the tax if each stone had a value of 3ped...

Click to expand...

Feel free to read through the following thread:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132510-Mining-loot-analysis

In this thread are some data taken a few years ago, and a subsequent analysis. The data suggest the following:

0. NRF or claim is determined.

1. Loot size is determined based on drop cost and a 'random' multiplier (note this is not usually the loot you actually get). Example, your drop cost 2 PED, with a 1.030 multiplier, so loot size is 2.060 PED.

2. Tax is applied. For the example in a 5.00% tax area, the land owner gets 0.0500*2.060 = 0.1030 PED. Your loot size is now 2.060 - 0.1030 = 1.957 PED. This is still not the loot you actually get.

3. Resource type is determined. Note that resource type could be determined earlier (like step 0.5). Timing of resource determination doesn't really affect this description of taxation and loot value.

4. Your loot size (1.957 PED) is rounded to a whole number of resource units. Example, if you've found gold stone, you will receive either 1 or 2 stones (at 1.00 PED per stone).

5. The rounding is done probabilistically, with more chance given to the number of stones that is closest in value to your loot size. In this case, since 2 stones (2 PED) is closer to 1.957 PED than is 1 stone (1 PED), you are more likely to get 2 stones. However, the chance of getting 1 stone is about 4.3%, with about a 95.7% chance of getting two stones.

6. The probabilities even out, such that if you found an infinite number of gold claims with loot size 1.957 PED, the weighted average of 1 PED and 2 PED loots would be 1.957 PED.

This hypothesis does predict that it is possible to turn a claim into a NRF, if you happen to round down to 0 resource units (may happen for high tt resources).

This hypothesis has not been proven beyond doubt, but it is consistent with the observed data.

There may be other hypotheses that also explain the data, and we might be unable to differentiate between them.

In conclusion, land owner always gets some tax from your claim, and you, on average, get the rest.

Best Wishes,

Noodles

No one knows or can prove how it works, so it's pretty much what is believable to you.

I don't believe MA does fair play or applies complicated algorithms to care about your returns.
Because they don't care.

So, I believe it works like this:

If you drop a bomb and find one valuable piece of ore, it will be taken from you, so you won't even see the loot window and get an NRF. 3% of these piece's TT value will be paid to LA owner, and the ore goes back to the loot pool.

Your tax is 100%.

In the same fashion, if you find two pieces, you will see one in your loot window, and another one will be taken, so your tax is 50%, etc.

That's why I never ever mine in LAs, unless I'm after lyst or oil.

humanwoman said:

If you drop a bomb and find one valuable piece of ore, it will be taken from you, so you won't even see the loot window and get an NRF. 3% of these piece's TT value will be paid to LA owner, and the ore goes back to the loot pool.
Your tax is 100%.

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That would be an exploit!