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Info: Eco hunting, what you NEED to know.

<Medusa> said:
Nononono, :laugh: this is complete crazy talk, doesn't really matter when you use a maxed out sword tho.

As a general rule for everyone, don't listen to the crazy loot theorycrafters out there, they are generally just trying to come up with an explanation to why their loot sucks instead of just doing what most people already know works and give you 90%+ returns, which is to kill everything as cheap as possible. (some of them probably do it just for the fun of trying to figure out how things work tho :))
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Imo, I think you should look at that from a gamemechanism p.o.v. instead. :)
 
mrproper said:
Did you try it?





Here are some links:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132510-Mining-loot-analysis
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?216585-My-theory-about-loot-in-general
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?223477-Loot-Facts!
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...176428-5-different-weapons-against-Argos-TEST
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?211630-Q-90-TT-return-What-is-the-100
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?101842-Some-utterly-insane-tests
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?132137-Grave-Digger-got-bored

And there are more of these, with nice charts. Plus my chart with overkilling mobs with the last shot doing more damage than needed for the whole mob on shinkibas:
uX4W7.png


Now, where is the proof that shows overkill is bad?
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You are getting similar number of kills for eco and overkill??:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:
 
prism said:
Wow... a whopping 350 ped cycled. Do that 40 more times and the numbers might get close to expectation.
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So you want me to kill 40.000 mobs to get to your expectations? Why. How do you decide that the 1000 number is insufficient? What is your logic or criteria for deciding the wrong number. Please enlighten me.

Silvia Universe said:
I forgot to ask one thing, cuz it did not come out clearly in your other post, what gun you used for the eco stats and what gun for the overkill stats?
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Eco: shooting shinkibas with First Gen Electric III , using First Gen Electric I as finisher, decay includes chips and implant
Overkill: shooting shinkibas with First Gen Electric I, using First Gen Electric III as finisher, decay includes chips and implant

I'll post the opalo/jester ones when I finish.

Silvia Universe said:
And pls enlighten me on wich Markup you are talking about?? :eyecrazy:
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Fragments and oils. Puny mobs drop lots of fragments. Since loot return is calculated at TT value, and those have good markup prices, the total loot return with markup is quite interesting. Have a look for yourself. 20-30 mobs are enough.

BBpunisher said:
You are getting similar number of kills for eco and overkill??:scratch2::scratch2::scratch2:
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Mob maturity distribution variance and blasting more Youngs with overkill for the fun of it. Basically most Young died to 2x Electric I and 1x Electric III for a total damage of 54 damage. Youngs have 30hp. Is that not a waste? On bigger mobs overkill is not so important with those weapons. That is why I get only 10% more mobs in one line of tests.
 
mrproper said:
Fragments and oils. Puny mobs drop lots of fragments. Since loot return is calculated at TT value, and those have good markup prices, the total loot return with markup is quite interesting. Have a look for yourself. 20-30 mobs are enough.
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Why did I know you where gonna say that...I actually took the time to look at my huge stack of nova and blazar to see if that was what you ment :D
 
Silvia Universe said:
Why did I know you where gonna say that...I actually took the time to look at my huge stack of nova and blazar to see if that was what you ment :D
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Blazar is 2 PED/1000 and Nova is 40 PEC/1000. How many did you get?
 
mrproper said:
So you want me to kill 40.000 mobs to get to your expectations? Why. How do you decide that the 1000 number is insufficient? What is your logic or criteria for deciding the wrong number. Please enlighten me.
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In statistical analysis there are concepts known as sample size and variance. If the sample size (number of data points) is insufficient then short term variance (rolling 8 sixes in a row, things that are statistically unlikely but do occur) muddies up the results. You need to have a huge sample size to see the actual results. In poker 10000 hands is not great, 100000 is ok, 1000000 is much better.
 
prism said:
In statistical analysis there are concepts known as sample size and variance. If the sample size (number of data points) is insufficient then short term variance (rolling 8 sixes in a row, things that are statistically unlikely but do occur) muddies up the results. You need to have a huge sample size to see the actual results. In poker 10000 hands is not great, 100000 is ok, 1000000 is much better.
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Bigger is better, I don't deny it. But what if the number I have chosen, and the expected result is well within the error variance? Why would I need to use a bigger sample size?

Like, tell me for example, if I hunt with two guns, one with an eco of 3, and one with an eco of 2.4, how many mobs do I have to kill to show that the loot return on the second weapon is not 80% of that of the first weapon but instead it is closer to 100%.

I have hypothesis A - Eco matters, and hypothesis B - Eco does not matte. And for A I expect 20% difference, and for B I expect 0% difference. How many mobs would be enough to trust the bias to either 0% or 20%?
 
this thread feels like the old PE :)

we all have out theoris.. mine is that you can never ever profit if your not using either an opalo, imk2, mm. (without reselling)
 
mrproper said:
I have hypothesis A - Eco matters, and hypothesis B - Eco does not matte. And for A I expect 20% difference, and for B I expect 0% difference. How many mobs would be enough to trust the bias to either 0% or 20%?
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You need more well defined hypotheses really, as the answer depends on the distribution of loot. The more fat-tailed the distribution (ie. higher importance of rare big loots) the more kills you will need. A simple way to see that would be to imagine a loot distribution where 99% of mobs are no-looters and all the loot is returned in the remaining 1% of mobs. In that situation 1000 mobs would clearly be hugely insufficient as you'd only expect to have had 10 looting mobs.

Also, there are other possibilities, for instance C - eco matters but a 20% less efficient set up only returns 10% less loot.

My instincts are also that you don't have enough data here.
 
mrproper said:
Blazar is 2 PED/1000 and Nova is 40 PEC/1000. How many did you get?
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In storage atm
Blazar 13.4K at monthly MU it is 22.37651 peds

Nova 82.9K I go for avg of 2500% cuz monthly MU is an insane peek and then it is 20.5 peds

And I been stacking em ever since blazar and nova where introduced...yeah I see the potential in it...very lucrative.

I am not going to take you serious anymore, after your post that hunting puny's is very interesting due to their MU loots.
 
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<Medusa> said:
1. You seem to hunt almost only on taxed Land areas! What I have noticed a lot of people don't realise is that paying 5% tax does not mean you will loose 5% more PEDs! Assuming the average loot return is 90-95% (which it is) let's say 95% in this example to make it simple, adding 5% tax to that changes return from 95% to 90% this is an increase in cost by 100%!!! not 5%. Even assuming 90% average return paying 5% tax increases your costs by 50%.
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Stop raping math, please!

If your loot is 50% only you pay only tax on those 50%.

<Medusa> said:
3. Lots of regen on most of the mobs you tend to hunt. Now regen I'm not to sure about how much it affects the average loot but it does seem to have at least a slight negative effect. I would advise to stay clear of the regen mobs unless they have MU to cover for it. Regen mobs also makes it hard to use finishers (more on that later)
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There is no evidence whatsoever that higher regen has a negative impact on return rate.

And this is where i stopped reading, no point in having more of that.





And, in general, i don't think someone like Joker needs loot advices - pretty cheeky that you do this nonetheless. But hey, you're not the first n00b trying to tell everyone how the universe works - right after they graduated.
 
mrproper said:
Bigger is better, I don't deny it. But what if the number I have chosen, and the expected result is well within the error variance? Why would I need to use a bigger sample size?

Like, tell me for example, if I hunt with two guns, one with an eco of 3, and one with an eco of 2.4, how many mobs do I have to kill to show that the loot return on the second weapon is not 80% of that of the first weapon but instead it is closer to 100%.

I have hypothesis A - Eco matters, and hypothesis B - Eco does not matte. And for A I expect 20% difference, and for B I expect 0% difference. How many mobs would be enough to trust the bias to either 0% or 20%?
Click to expand...

I'd say cycle 20k ped through each gun and take a look at the returns.
 
wizzszz said:
Stop raping math, please!

If your loot is 50% only you pay only tax on those 50%.



There is no evidence whatsoever that higher regen has a negative impact on return rate.

And this is where i stopped reading, no point in having more of that.





And, in general, i don't think someone like Joker needs loot advices - pretty cheeky that you do this nonetheless. But hey, you're not the first n00b trying to tell everyone how the universe works - right after they graduated.
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First of all, what does the numbers thingy you wrote even mean? You mean that you only pay tax on your 50% return if thats what your return is? Well duh, ofc you only pay tax on what you actually loot, but getting 50% returns and paying tax on that already means that you are loosing out on 40% somewhere. That changes nothing in the math.

As for regen I said I believe it has a small negative impact on return.

As for Joker needing advice, ANYONE who claim they get 20-40% average returns obviously needs all the advise they can get. Now I dont know if that is what he actually gets or if he is exagerating, but this post is only intended to help out people who somehow manage to get such returns, god knows how they do it because it seems impossible to me unless you are intentionally trying to loose everything.

But yes I'm just a n00b who recently graduated after playing for 9 years, and didn't learn anything during this time, so who am I to give advice to others.
 
mrproper said:
Bigger is better, I don't deny it. But what if the number I have chosen, and the expected result is well within the error variance? Why would I need to use a bigger sample size?

Like, tell me for example, if I hunt with two guns, one with an eco of 3, and one with an eco of 2.4, how many mobs do I have to kill to show that the loot return on the second weapon is not 80% of that of the first weapon but instead it is closer to 100%.

I have hypothesis A - Eco matters, and hypothesis B - Eco does not matte. And for A I expect 20% difference, and for B I expect 0% difference. How many mobs would be enough to trust the bias to either 0% or 20%?
Click to expand...

Hi, I stopped reading the thread at this point to answer this, so I don't know yet if it has been addressed.

I think perhaps the effect of eco is much less than a 1 to 1 correspondence. In this post you seem to be stating that a gun that is 80% as eco as another gun should get 20% less loot than the second gun if the eco effect is valid.

I think that the eco effect is much much smaller on loot outcome, maybe a percent or two, as evidenced by your chart.

Cheers!

I am really enjoying reading this thread by the way. :)
 
Uvas said:
Hi, I stopped reading the thread at this point to answer this, so I don't know yet if it has been addressed.

I think perhaps the effect of eco is much less than a 1 to 1 correspondence. In this post you seem to be stating that a gun that is 80% as eco as another gun should get 20% less loot than the second gun if the eco effect is valid.

I think that the eco effect is much much smaller on loot outcome, maybe a percent or two, as evidenced by your chart.

Cheers!

I am really enjoying reading this thread by the way. :)
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And I think by more testing we will get exact number which will diminish even more below 1%

Cheers!
 
<Medusa> said:
First of all, what does the numbers thingy you wrote even mean? You mean that you only pay tax on your 50% return if thats what your return is? Well duh, ofc you only pay tax on what you actually loot, but getting 50% returns and paying tax on that already means that you are loosing out on 40% somewhere. That changes nothing in the math.
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Mixing up the terms doesn't make it any better - you said costs, these 40% are not costs.
Costs are always the same on MA side (x% of what you spend), but the LA taxes are only on loot, that changes a lot.


<Medusa> said:
As for regen I said I believe it has a small negative impact on return.
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Nobody gives a flying fuck what you or i believe. If i want to have a debate about beliefs i go visit some creationist.

<Medusa> said:
As for Joker needing advice, ANYONE who claim they get 20-40% average returns obviously needs all the advise they can get. Now I dont know if that is what he actually gets or if he is exagerating, but this post is only intended to help out people who somehow manage to get such returns, god knows how they do it because it seems impossible to me unless you are intentionally trying to loose everything.
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It is perfectly possible to have such low TT returns over a longer period of time, WITHOUT doing anything "wrong". Most of our advices (i.e. hunt mobs that drop high markup) do not even address this, because the will not fix the problem (just compensate it's effects a bit).


And no matter HOW good your average markup is, it will not cover the losses on such bad runs - again you weak math is playing tricks on you: 300% markup on 20% TT return is STILL an EFFING HUGE LOSS.


And, who are you anyway, that you dare giving advices? I reckon you haven't entered your avatar name for a reason...
 
Uvas said:
I think that the eco effect is much much smaller on loot outcome, maybe a percent or two, as evidenced by your chart.
Click to expand...
Freelancer_Main said:
And I think by more testing we will get exact number which will diminish even more below 1%
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So all the efforts that go into "eco" planning? Just for 1-2%? You get more than that if you switch mobs.

I have to confess though. Finding the most eco gun to hunt your favorite mob sure does give you a warm feeling. But the numbers, they stare you in your face...

Here are some pretty pictures that I get from the table I published here. Let your imagination go while you discover what they mean...

Tk2rU.png

YWk1t.png

IoKn8.png
 
Silvia Universe said:
I am not going to take you serious anymore, after your post that hunting puny's is very interesting due to their MU loots.
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The only puny I know of that has good MU loot is Carabok (hides stable @ 300%). Caly's PP should figure out how to put something with good MU in puny loot for the new players.
 
Neil Stockton said:
The only puny I know of that has good MU loot is Carabok (hides stable @ 300%). Caly's PP should figure out how to put something with good MU in puny loot for the new players.
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After Calypso puny, there are very few mobs that you can hunt as you level up that offer the same markup on loot. Sure, Arkadia has much better low-level loots.
 
mrproper said:
After Calypso puny, there are very few mobs that you can hunt as you level up that offer the same markup on loot. Sure, Arkadia has much better low-level loots.
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Well what is one fragment worth??

How many PUNY'S I need to kill to even make that MU on those fragments even close to effective to sell??

Common!!!
 
Neil Stockton said:
The only puny I know of that has good MU loot is Carabok (hides stable @ 300%). Caly's PP should figure out how to put something with good MU in puny loot for the new players.
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You are right ofc but the person I adressed claims that puny on Calypso are intersting to hunt becuase of their fragments.

If he thinks it might be a good idea for newbies they could rather go kill some snablesnots and they can loot some pixie so they can have a good beginner armor to go up to kill other mobs
 
Silvia Universe said:
Well what is one fragment worth??

How many PUNY'S I need to kill to even make that MU on those fragments even close to effective to sell??

Common!!!
Click to expand...

One fragment is worth between 2400% and 20400% depending on type, quantity and trade location. From my recent loot analysis on over 1000 punies I obtained over 110% markup on their loot, because they drop fairly often, there is no other mob on Calypso that I know of to give such good returns with eco gear. The best next choice for such a high loot markup are Drones. I don't see them accessible to new players.

You kill over 1000 of them, because you get some cool missions and rewards now, so I don't know, you get a few thousand fragments?

Where are we going?
 
mrproper said:
One fragment is worth between 2400% and 20400% depending on type, quantity and trade location. From my recent loot analysis on over 1000 punies I obtained over 110% markup on their loot, because they drop fairly often, there is no other mob on Calypso that I know of to give such good returns with eco gear. The best next choice for such a high loot markup are Drones. I don't see them accessible to new players.

You kill over 1000 of them, because you get some cool missions and rewards now, so I don't know, you get a few thousand fragments?

Where are we going?
Click to expand...

Weren't you the one who claims eco don't matter??

Now you really confusing me :scratch2:

Read back in these posts and see how many fragments are in my storage.
 
Mrproper is the only guy here discuss with his data/graph to base his argument. His data might not be insufficient, his method might not be correct, his conclusion could be wrong, etc... but it does not matter me. Because I see his great effort in recording and generating those data to prove his acknowledgement. In the other hand, other guys are arguing without any effort in providing data/proof to protect your argument.

Back to the topic, there are two myths that needed to be solved to see the whole picture of hunting loot:
- If you use your gun and shoot at the ground/sky, not shoot at mob, will all of that cost be returned into your loot in the future?
- Armor/Fap decay, are they returned into your lootpool in the future as well?
 
nlnforever said:
Mrproper is the only guy here discuss with his data/graph to base his argument. His data might not be insufficient, his method might not be correct, his conclusion could be wrong, etc... but it does not matter me. Because I see his great effort in recording and generating those data to prove his acknowledgement. In the other hand, other guys are arguing without any effort in providing data/proof to protect your argument.

Back to the topic, there are two myths that needed to be solved to see the whole picture of hunting loot:
- If you use your gun and shoot at the ground/sky, not shoot at mob, will all of that cost be returned into your loot in the future?
- Armor/Fap decay, are they returned into your lootpool in the future as well?
Click to expand...

I think the ped you shoot at nothing is wasted. I have no data to back this up...but...;)

I remember reading a post here on these forums by an online game designer. And he noted the lag between the time you loot a dead mob and the time you recieve a loot for it. He said the reason for the delay was that the calculations for loot started when you clicked the dead mob. Therefore the slight delay in getting your loot. He said that was exactly how it worked in the game he helped design. There were no mobs walking around with loot inside of them. Only the act of looting set of the loot calculations and equations.

So, it seems that mindark's equations DO include how much damage you inflict on a mob up to a certain point. So, they just plug in the amount of damage you did to the freshly killed mob into the equation, and bing! Out pops the loot.

So walking around shooting at nothing wouldn't help your loot pool.
 
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nlnforever said:
Mrproper is the only guy here discuss with his data/graph to base his argument. His data might not be insufficient, his method might not be correct, his conclusion could be wrong, etc... but it does not matter me. Because I see his great effort in recording and generating those data to prove his acknowledgement. In the other hand, other guys are arguing without any effort in providing data/proof to protect your argument.

Back to the topic, there are two myths that needed to be solved to see the whole picture of hunting loot:
- If you use your gun and shoot at the ground/sky, not shoot at mob, will all of that cost be returned into your loot in the future?
- Armor/Fap decay, are they returned into your lootpool in the future as well?
Click to expand...

Since when are the decay from armor/fap a myth that it builds up your loot? :)
But lets say it IS a myth, then let us create a new possible one.
Scanner had same function as those two, but were changed due to (imo) a good
reason: if you learned how to build up this with a scanner, you could enter
a event and quite easily get a balanced loot from it, that gives you a advantage
compared to the rest in the event that didn't prepared for a good loot at start.
Changes to the system aren't always a bad thing, even thou' reasons aren't
always so clear at the beginning... ;) Oh, yeah, it were a myth. Forgot! :D ;)
 
Uvas said:
I think the ped you shoot at nothing is wasted. I have no data to back this up...but...;)

I remember reading a post here on these forums by an online game designer. And he noted the lag between the time you loot a dead mob and the time you recieve a loot for it. He said the reason for the delay was that the calculations for loot started when you clicked the dead mob. Therefore the slight delay in getting your loot. He said that was exactly how it worked in the game he helped design. There were no mobs walking around with loot inside of them. Only the act of looting set of the loot calculations and equations.

So, it seems that mindark's equations DO include how much damage you inflict on a mob up to a certain point. So, they just plug in the amount of damage you did to the freshly killed mob into the equation, and bing! Out pops the loot.

So walking around shooting at nothing wouldn't help your loot pool.
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I think it is a bit different, but could be translated to damage, from a players p.o.v
It isn't the damage that is calculated, it's based on the amount of interactions
you had. Every interaction cost the same, therefor every interaction with exact same
setup has a linear cost, even a MISS. Sometimes you get lag on your damage, so they
pop up in chat "long" time after your interaction, same with a MISS.
They are registred at a certain object.
Shot at the side at the mob, and it isn't registred. ;)
Damage (and MISS) is just a tool to regulate your amount of interactions with
the object. Thats my p.o.v of it at least... :)
 
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