Thinking about buying a shop. Need some advice.

For a long time, I have been frustrated by the inability to effectively sell many looted items through the auction. Either the markup is too low, or the rounding to the nearest dollar makes the item unsellable, or people just don't get a chance to see the stuff before it's gone. I've tried tried global trade channels, local trade channels, and rookie chat- all with very little success. Regardless of the reason, I end up tt'ing a lot of stuff that I really think someone could use.

So, my thought is that it might make sense to get a booth, shop, or estate with shop keepers.

Here's the thing- I really don't much about it. If you guys can toss some advice, information, and/or opinions my way, I'd appreciate it.

1). Shops in malls, on TI, or on some LA have a sales tax, correct? Can the owner of the mall or whatever just change it at will? Typically, how much is it?

2). For booths, apartments, houses, etc. that are not on a player-controlled area, I believe MA charges a sales tax? How much is that?

3). I was looking at the booths in Corinth, I see that many of them are unsold or unclaimed. I never see any of them coming up for sale. Anyone know the status of these booths?

4). Likewise, I see that a lot of the shops at TI City are listed as owned by Deathifyer. Are they? Or are they just unclaimed?

5). IIRC, when I started, we all got TI or TI City as a default TP. Eventually, I believe they changed that to New Oxford? Do new players still get New Oxford TP?

6). Booths, shops, estates, are any of these obviously better or worse than the others?

Any other thoughts, advice, comments? Mainly, I'm just looking at selling looted items for low to mid-level players. I guess I could end up selling looted crafting supplies, tiering stuff, etc. but I'm not much of a crafter or auction hound, so my needs are fairly simple.


Thanks for your comments.

First of all let me tell you p2p and auction trading has much higher revenue than shops, because most ppl dont have time to walk through hundreds of shops to find what they are looking for just to save few pec (they could use that time for sweating and earn the price difference with that time).
I myself walk through shops sometimes to check if something is being sold way under markup (sometimes after VUs when certain markups go up, shopowners are too slow to change the prices accordingly), but most players use the auction.

Why i know that? i have owned shops and booths on caly and for short time on foma. Foma shop did work until auctions with transports were introduced, after that not worth it anymore. On Calypso i had shop in deer mall and for short time in PA mall. In total i have been owner of a shop or booth for period of 2,5months and with that time only 3 items sold (each under 10ped markup).

It is possible to make your shop work but it takes a lot of dedication and advertising and inital investment. Buying CLD with the money you would spend on nice location shop would generate you more profit (unless ofcourse the bubble bursts and CLD prices go down to 1400 or something like this).

If you have problem selling low markup items you can gather them until you have big amounts OR make selling thread here on forum, which you Update regulary.

But if i had a shop for sale i would probably talk that owning a shop is superb idea, but atm i think it is one of the worse places to invest your money.

Sorry i didnt answer any of your questions, but i am sure many of shop owners who are trying to sell theirs will answer in no time.

Rumsponge said:

1). Shops in malls, on TI, or on some LA have a sales tax, correct? Can the owner of the mall or whatever just change it at will? Typically, how much is it?

2). For booths, apartments, houses, etc. that are not on a player-controlled area, I believe MA charges a sales tax? How much is that?

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Sales tax is fixed at 2.5% (I think?) of the MU of the item. There's no option to change it, though of course MA can do anything if they set their minds to it. When you set the price in the shop, the tax is added on. Thats why I usually advertise as price (in peds or MU) + shop tax (left undefined).

Rumsponge said:

6). Booths, shops, estates, are any of these obviously better or worse than the others?

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The key question for you is how are you going to drive customers to your shop. That's all about marketing and visibility. Booth's are smaller capacity but their stock is visible to passers-by. And its generally better located for passing traffic. A lot of the caly shops are a bit out of the way so you aren't going to get random visitors.

Rumsponge said:

Any other thoughts, advice, comments? Mainly, I'm just looking at selling looted items for low to mid-level players. I guess I could end up selling looted crafting supplies, tiering stuff, etc. but I'm not much of a crafter or auction hound, so my needs are fairly simple. .

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I think it can be challenging for hunters to sell loot through a shop. As a customer I'm generally going to be going to a shop to look for specific types of stuff. Weapons, or armour, or mining gear. Hunting loot is a bit random and there is a danger your shop will have no clear focus which makes it hard to market.

Regards,
KikkiJikk

Just read whiteknut's post and I think properly managed shops have great potential to generate revenue. My monthly sales are generally between 25k-35k ped and growing every year. Of course I have a significant investment in shop deeds, shop inventory, bps to generate that revenue. I also like that I am not subject to 7 day limit that auction imposes, along with the risk of the item just sliding through auction unsold. In shops, there is no fee unless your item sells.

There is a definite risk that your shop will not have good sales. If you can't get people to go in your shop then you aren't going to get much revenue. So I can understand why people would recommend putting the cost of a shop deed into CLDs instead.

A shop can generate much more then clds of same worth but it depends on many factors.
1- Decent amount on PED
2- Advertising
3- Location
4- Atleast 1 thing to bring in daily/weekly base clients.
5- Skills to actually craft something or a decent supplier.

I quit mine mainly coz of 5 and little bit of 1

Current "new" auction fee is 0.5+((74.625*MU)/(1492.5+MU))
Shop tax is 0.025*MU

Roughly so:

I love it when people say, "Shops generate income".

Shops, auction, booth, p2p, NONE of these generate income.

The ONLY thing that generates income is selling your crap for more than you got it. (Including fees of course)


Shops/booths are cheaper to use than auction, (Less fee), you can also relist a product as many times as you want and it doesnt cost you anything, unlike auction. There are many more item points in shops, booths. YOu can add shop keeper pads to shops/booths.
EDIT: There is also no time limit for your products, unlike auction

The only difficulty is getting traffic. Advertise, shout out in chat a few times, its really not hard.

So is a shop worth 30k? That's upto you.

OR if you want to go at it cheap, buy an aparment and put a few shop keeper pads in it. Far cheaper, and if you shout in chat about it enough, people will go!!!

Rgds

Ace

EDIT: it goes without saying, if it doesnt sell on auction, it probably wont sell in your shop.

EDIT2: I used a shop to sell mining amps, these sell well anyway, so putting them in the shop saved me a few ped, and traffic is fine. (As people buy them regularly anyway)

My problem is that I get large quantities of things like MF chips, FAPs, guns, etc. that people will buy. The problem is that rounding to the nearest dollar on the auction makes them unsellable unless they are the exact right TT value. I have dumped probably 1k or more in profit into the TT so far this year, just because I had no good way of selling this stuff.

As far as advertising, I spend a lot of time in Rookie chat, anyway. I'm sure I can do occasional shout outs there. Plus, I figured that I could put up ads now and then, using the in-game system. The main reason I was looking at the Corinth booths is that they are right there where everyone can see them. Very little advertising would be needed.

a shop is. if you need to sell a lot of looted stuff a good idea.

so where to get one. that is not to expensive.

solution nr 1 buy a house/apartment. put op a small group of shopkeepers. need to be close to a tp to work properly

a house. there is not many houses for sale. and the are expensive 3000-5000-8000(hangar) peds. so no good sins you need to get shopkeepers to. and 2200 to 6600 peds in investment on top is not that good.

a apartment. the can be brought for 400-1200 peds. and with 3 shopkepers 3x2200 = cr 7000 peds in investment. and 60 spots to use for items. its not that bade.

solution nr 2 a shop. price is from 1500-3000 for a stall. 3000-30000 peds for a shop. note. a price over 12000 peds for any shop in game is in my opinion a over price.

so best plan. buy a shop for no more then 7000 peds in one of the cites. you may ask mindark. if you see a shop. in one of them that the still own. if the will sell it to you. pm deathfire hi might haw one you can buy for a good price
a shop got typical 60-120 item points. so one shopkeper. ore to and you got a lot of spots to you goods.

Baron topper.

My opinion - do not buy Shop for looted items (from several mobs, which you like).
You cannot predict what need your potential customers.
There is several groups of customers:
1. Lazy = most players (they never go to the Shop if similar items can be bought on Auction)
2. Greedy = resellers (they go to the Shop only if they know that price is significantly lower)
3. Your regular customers (they know that item always can be bought in your Shop). If item will be endless and can be always in stock, they will come into your Shop.
4. Accidentally customers = they never return back
For many people may be more easy to pay transport fee than go into Shops with not regular stock.
My Shops works only because I have regular range of almost all tools. With 3 Shops on 3 planets I have 5-25 sales everyday and I happy with it. In my search I found assortment, acceptable for me and for my customers. It took me almost a year out to collect the necessary BP's.
My personal conclusion:
If you are a hunter - do not buy the Shop for your loot.
For the hunter, this is a bad investment.
You will be disappointed with the result.

I feel your pain and mulled the same ideas several times. The huge bummer with shops is that there exists no in-game solution for item discovery. It is beyond comprehension why such a thing is not implemented, because it would be so easy (almost same interface as auction/bank, just list price and location/give landmark).

The start-up cost i.m.o. is disproportionate to the projected throughput, if selling your loot is all you want to do with it. Even if you calculate that the money invested in virtual real estate and equipment (2k per shopping pad alone! cough) can be recovered upon selling out, the capital tied up this way cannot earn interest elsewhere e.g. with CLDs. This amount of lost interest (called 'opportunity cost' in economics) has to be made up by the difference in fees for the whole thing to be worth it.

San said:

The start-up cost i.m.o. is disproportionate to the needed throughput, if selling your loot is all you want to do with it. Even if you calculate that the money invested in virtual real estate and equipment (2k per shopping pad alone! cough) can be recovered upon selling out, the capital tied up this way cannot earn interest elsewhere e.g. with CLDs. This amount of lost interest (called 'opportunity cost' in economics) has to be made up by the difference in fees for the whole thing to be worth it.

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I think this is a crucial point (I ran a lot of shops in Twin mall, PA mall and on Arkadia, shopping booths on several Caly locations).

@OP, please share your thoughts on what is posted so far, so we can give some more advice.

From my point of view, running a shop (or a series of shops) makes only sense, when it's fun for you. It's definately not a cash cow, except of two things:

1) You put a lot of PEDs PLUS a lot of time into your business. And I mean a LOT. Check the shops ".Point" (see above), Kittens shops, KikkiyJikky or Auktuma. You need to run it as your main profession in Entropia to make it successful. If it's just a "side job" it won't be successful.

2) only if you have a very good location and you get a shop/booth for a very good price, you can make profit when selling your estate later. There is no guarantee of a price increase, no matter what sellers tell you.

Risks to take into consideration when purchasing any estate (LA, booth or shop):
MA might change the location of your estate any time (happened before).
MA might change the location of the nearest TP any time (happened before).
MA might change the game logic (introducing malls was a problem for existing shop owners). It's uncertain what plots will do to existing shops. Maybe it doesn't change anything at all.
Other planets might drag away the majority of the players (unlikely to happen in the near future).
Entropia will lose the majority of the players (make your own guess here).

So far, I think this has been a very useful discussion. I have learned a lot of important things that I had no idea of previously.

KijkkiJikki said:

I think it can be challenging for hunters to sell loot through a shop. As a customer I'm generally going to be going to a shop to look for specific types of stuff. Weapons, or armour, or mining gear. Hunting loot is a bit random and there is a danger your shop will have no clear focus which makes it hard to market.

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My plan is to always keep the same types of items in stock, mostly sticking to the (L) items I get large quantities of, low-level weapons, MF chips, tools, etc. By doing this, I am hoping that it will generate a sustained repeat business.

baron topper said:

there is not many houses for sale. and the are expensive 3000-5000-8000(hangar) peds. so no good sins you need to get shopkeepers to. and 2200 to 6600 peds in investment on top is not that good.

solution nr 2 a shop. price is from 1500-3000 for a stall. 3000-30000 peds for a shop. note. a price over 12000 peds for any shop in game is in my opinion a over price.

so best plan. buy a shop for no more then 7000 peds in one of the cites. you may ask mindark. if you see a shop. in one of them that the still own. if the will sell it to you. pm deathfire hi might haw one you can buy for a good price
a shop got typical 60-120 item points. so one shopkeper. ore to and you got a lot of spots to you goods.

Baron topper.

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Are these numbers accurate? So far, I've only had a couple of conversations with people selling mall shops, and the prices were well over 10k.

mastermesh said:

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...fee-question&p=2676474&viewfull=1#post2676474

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Excellent info. I have never had a shop keeper. But from your thread, I suspect that the decay would make them less than ideal for my purposes.

Smoerble said:

From my point of view, running a shop (or a series of shops) makes only sense, when it's fun for you. It's definately not a cash cow, except of two things:

1) You put a lot of PEDs PLUS a lot of time into your business. And I mean a LOT. Check the shops ".Point" (see above), Kittens shops, KikkiyJikky or Auktuma. You need to run it as your main profession in Entropia to make it successful. If it's just a "side job" it won't be successful.

2) only if you have a very good location and you get a shop/booth for a very good price, you can make profit when selling your estate later. There is no guarantee of a price increase, no matter what sellers tell you.

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For right now, my intentions are to recoup the wasted profits from items that I have to tt because I can't auction them. In the future, I may start to take advantage of the crafting app and get into enhancers or attachments or something. But this is not my intention for now.

One thing no one has brought up yet, is the introduction of these new CLD plots. Anyone have any thoughts or predictions as to their effect on the current shops and booths?

I too experienced frustration with the auction as my main option. It doesn't work well for low priced items, especially if they don't sell at the first listing. (not being able to use less than 1 ped, in listing)

I have had moderate success owning a shop in Deer Mall. Shops are cheaper than the other malls, but there is less regular traffic. I compensate by advertising, it will generate more customers to check out your store.

I began with my storage almost full, but it can be difficult to underprice the auction & make a profit.
Displays & Shopkeepers will add to the cost too. If you are looking at a long term investment, owning a shop can work for some people. It required dedication to tend to the shop & periodically checking the mark-up on items for sale.
You will see many shops that are not tended to & they are not really making any real income.
I have shocked many people by being in my shop, most say they have never met a shop owner.

I have to agree with previous comments, the changes to the game can be your worst enemy.
But if you are willing to make the commitment in time & peds, it may well work out well for you.
Profit from a shop will be gradual, not immediate. So, if you play daily it should work for you.

whiteknut said:

Buying CLD with the money you would spend on nice location shop would generate you more profit (unless ofcourse the bubble bursts and CLD prices go down to 1400 or something like this).

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The CLD market has always befuddled me. I had 2 of them that I looted early on. When the price went over 1400, I sold them thinking that they had topped out. Then MA announces the land plots are going to be released, and the price goes up over 1700. So, now, even the (X) ones are over 1700 peds.

If anything, I might start gathering ComPet deeds ahead of the game's release, but that is still months away.

With shops you just need to do one thing better than anyone else ...Kikkis guns on Ark, or Hammers guns on RT or Beasts tools on RT or those plate shops or enhancer shops on Caly I forgot who owns them. Or, be cheaper than anyone else.

People go there because they KNOW they will find something that suits them because the selection is always there. OR, because they KNOW you will be a few points below regular MU.

If you try to sell stuff you looted for close to auction prices you will have very few sales.

I won a shop on RT at perfect timing...I had 400-500 looted and crafted guns from all planets I was toting around never having auction space to sell them, then that full day Longtooth test E.L.M gun drop occurred and I had like 800 guns total. Then I won a shop with 470 item points. The next 3-4 months I sold most of them at the shop, but I kept prices below auction mu because the was no convenient tp, and it is a pain to get to. But anyway, by dumping them mostly below mu, I was able to sell most of them very easily...BUT, I gave up mu willingly to induce sales that were easy with no auction fees and all I had to do was place the items set the price and walk away. It was worth it to me.

But if you aren't looking to price cheap, and you just put all your randomly obtained hunting loot in there, you won't sell much. You mention small stacks...if you are trying to sell basic hunting loot like stacks...good luck, because people usually get all the same stuff you get while hunting when they go hunting. You need to find a niche. After my shop sales slowed when the guns were gone, I started thinking of other uses as the shop remained mostly empty for the last two months...

Since I had one of the 2-3 biggest collections or rt BP's, I decided to use my store for that...since I am getting out of crafting (and other stuff) Yesterday I started going through storage and trying to find and lay out all the bps. There are very few bps for rt ever on auction, so I figured this was a perfect spot to try this. I haven't even gotten half of the placed yet, and none are priced, but people are asking me constantly now when they can go there to buy the bp's they need or been looking for. It will probably take me 20 more hours of game time to get 470 BP's laid out and priced, but I think that I will definitely be able to sell most of the 1500 other rt bps I have collecting dust. Especially all the rare and hard to get ones. In time, people WILL know that if they need a specific RT bp, to go to Taco's shop just like people go to Kikkis if they need a specific gun on Ark. BP's is a niche that is under-served on RT atm. That is what you need to find with a shop. Provide a service...don't let it be a dumping ground for 7.2 ped of zinc and 13 stacks of extractors.

The only way to optimally utilize a shop is to make people say to their friend "Oh, you need a gun? Go to Kikki's place at..." or "oh you need RT specific mob drops, go to Hammers other shop in tangerine" or " Oh you need rt bp? Go to Taco's dungeon."

Well, that's my thought on it anyway...good luck

Rumsponge said:

For right now, my intentions are to recoup the wasted profits from items that I have to tt because I can't auction them. In the future, I may start to take advantage of the crafting app and get into enhancers or attachments or something. But this is not my intention for now.

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If it doesn't sell in auction, it will not sell in a shop either. You won't be happy then. Better look for a good connection to crafters, mybe they pay 1% or 2% at least.

Rumsponge said:

One thing no one has brought up yet, is the introduction of these new CLD plots. Anyone have any thoughts or predictions as to their effect on the current shops and booths?

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I recommend to discuss plot questions here:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...of-Ithaca-and-Livas-(and-list-of-plot-owners) , because the top plot owners are active there and also pretty open with their data.

I think people are getting the wrong idea.

I am not planning on selling stackable items (unless some unexpected opportunity comes along)

My plan is to sell looted weapons, faps, chips, etc.

Now, under ideal circumstances, I get one that is full tt and have absolutely no problem selling it on auction. However, 90% of them are not full tt. Due to the rounding problem with auction, anything that is less than full tt rounds off so that you are way below or way above market rates.

Example-

There is a certain gun that I have looted a lot of. Full tt value is 10.00 peds. On auction, I sell every one of these I get for 120%, which is the going rate. But only if they are full tt.

Say I have one that is 7.25 peds remaining. Ideally, I should sell that for 8.70 peds. But, the auction will not allow me to do that. My choices are 8.00 peds (110%) or 9.00 peds (124%).

If I sell it at 8.00 peds, I make 0.22 peds after fees, and I whore up the market so it makes it harder to sell at 120% next time I have a full tt one.

If I try for 9.00 peds and everyone else is selling for 120%, I will virtually never sell it and it will have cost me 0.53 peds for even trying.

Therefore, every one of these "seconds" that I get, goes right into the tt. But, I could have made nearly 1.50 peds from selling it in a shop.

I understand that 1.50 peds isn't a lot, but multiply that by a hundred items that I tt'd, and there are many more profitable ones that I didn't mention.

This is what I really hope to get out of having a shop. Maybe it will never pay for itself, but I think it might.

IMHO, there are only three things you have to consider when buying a shop Rumsponge.

Understood.
What you don't take into account: you need a lot time to place the items in shop and you need a lot work to drive people there. So it would better make sense, if you make the weapons significant cheaper than auc (110% in your example). If you try to sell not-full-tt guns at MU,this is not gonna work very well. If it's low level wepaons, it's even harder. So you have to give people a reason to buy at your place: significant lower than auction.

Rumsponge said:

My problem is that I get large quantities of things like MF chips, FAPs, guns, etc. that people will buy. The problem is that rounding to the nearest dollar on the auction makes them unsellable unless they are the exact right TT value. I have dumped probably 1k or more in profit into the TT so far this year, just because I had no good way of selling this stuff.

As far as advertising, I spend a lot of time in Rookie chat, anyway. I'm sure I can do occasional shout outs there. Plus, I figured that I could put up ads now and then, using the in-game system. The main reason I was looking at the Corinth booths is that they are right there where everyone can see them. Very little advertising would be needed.

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Think of it in dollars. You dumped 1K profit into the TT this year. Would running a shop be worth the hours you'd have to put into to save just $100?

I think Smoerble gives the best advice, if it wouldn't sell on auction, it won't sell in a shop unless as others said, you put in a lot time getting the word out and keeping the shop stocked and getting a reputation established. And, some of the stuff will still end up in the TT anyway.

As Smoerble said, only do it if you enjoy it. Is it worth X amount of your time to save Y amount of dollars?

Dab said:

Think of it in dollars. You dumped 1K profit into the TT this year. Would running a shop be worth the hours you'd have to put into to save just $100?

I think Smoerble gives the best advice, if it wouldn't sell on auction, it won't sell in a shop unless as others said, you put in a lot time getting the word out and keeping the shop stocked and getting a reputation established. And, some of the stuff will still end up in the TT anyway.

As Smoerble said, only do it if you enjoy it. Is it worth X amount of your time to save Y amount of dollars?

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Yeah, you guys may be right. The only thing is, I already spend a lot of time putting stuff on auction. So, if I don't have to spend that time, it will offset some of the overhead of maintaining the shop.

Next Question

Assuming I am crazy enough to try it out, how much should I pay for a shop?

I am thinking about Corinth, the Deer Mall, Twin Peaks, or PA. Any other recommendations?

Thanks again for all of your input.

Rumsponge said:

Any other recommendations?

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If you do buy a shop, publicise it in your signature ("Disgusted since 2006" has got to go!)
and it is also time to get that avatar picture sorted.

There are plenty of graphically talented people on the forum who can help you out.

Rumsponge said:

Assuming I am crazy enough to try it out, how much should I pay for a shop?

I am thinking about Corinth, the Deer Mall, Twin Peaks, or PA. Any other recommendations?

Thanks again for all of your input.

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Recent sales at Emerald Malls have been a little under 15k for shops with 300 item points.

I can tell about deer mall prices, i had one there i paid 5k when i bought and sold at 7,5k (that was while back already) but prices there should have remained about the same (if not lower).

When I asked to buy a shop recently in chat and PCF, I got only prices 15+, so I would advice: check abandoned shops and get incontact with the owners.

As Mega said before:
Location, locaiton, location. If you have a crap location, you won't have any foot traffic, so every single players needs to be attrackted by you. If you have a good location (Twin mall, directly next to the televator) you don't need to advertise much. Prices there seem to start at 20k though .

Rumsponge said:

For right now, my intentions are to recoup the wasted profits from items that I have to tt because I can't auction them.

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One huge problem which takes most players some time to come to terms with: The market data displayed in game is deceptive, because only successful sales go into it. Nowhere in these numbers do you get to see the countless futile auction listings. Take things like Tier Components, they have decent markup and look as if they're worth just a wee bit too much for trashing if you don't use them yourself. But only one out of don't know how many offers get picked up. Much worse even are extractors. Sometimes you just have to close both eyes and be firm with yourself that tt'ing is the better option unless you really know someone needing something specific. I doubt this works any better when you have them sitting in a shop, if they don't consume fees there they cost interest as explained above. I.m.o. it's better to take a close look at sold volume, not just markup, and how many are already listed on auction. If you see huge competition, better forget it and move on. I have the impression MA has little motivation to do something about it as they must earn quite well from this illusion.