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  1. #1
    Slayer GeorgeSkywalker's Avatar
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    Documented agreements to avoid scamming

    Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


    Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

    However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


    Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.

  2. #2
    Mutated mastermesh's Avatar
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    bad idea. If Mindark put a 'renting' scheme in game where it works with in game controls and authority, it'd be great, but the don't want to do that (and honestly I'm not sure if they are competent enough to pull something like that off anyways - look how long it takes them to resolve support tickets and bugs, etc. Remember those estated that were non functional for over a year after vu 10? Imagine a rented item being taken out of game for over a year just because Mindark can't figure out which side 'wins').

    Problem is and always was that there's no way to control another avatars actions, no matter how much you want to, and as it is now 'all trades are final.' I guess you can look in to buying a bank? Isn't exactly what you want, but it could help get you closer to something like what you are wanting I suspect.

    https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/f...l=1#post839343
    Since we released news about the virtual banking licenses, several questions regarding loan services and banking affairs within Entropia Universe have been raised. The main concern has been the lending of items for interest. We feel that we need to clarify our policy about this.
    Recently MindArk PE AB issued official virtual banking licenses. These licenses comprise a secured bank system for processing loans and securities in the form of items. All transactions made via this official bank system, such as loans, defaults, securities, interest etc., are safe and as such guaranteed by MindArk.
    By contrast, loan services offered outside this official bank system cannot be guaranteed by MindArk. If an item is exchanged between avatars, this transaction will be logged as a regular TRADE. And as all trades are final, MindArk will not investigate claims if a loan giving avatar refuses to return items or money.Many people do not fully understand the true value of their virtual items until they are lost. They will then contact MindArk PE AB for assistance and will realize that we cannot help them; this can cause a lot of unnecessary grief and frustration.
    We do not wish to discourage entrepreneurship within Entropia Universe, but based on experiences from community feedback and support case history, unfortunately not all entrepreneurs offering loaning services are trustworthy members of the Entropia Universe and therefore we need to be strict in our policies in order to protect the community from scams and cheating.
    Therefore, any loan services offered outside the approved bank system will be considered by MindArk as scam attempts and the avatar offering such services risk a permanent lockdown of his/her account.
    Last edited by mastermesh; 08-10-2017 at 10:04.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeSkywalker View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


    Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

    However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


    Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.
    Bad idea, since if item renting / borrowing would come more easier it will crash their markets also. I bet people wouldnt buy that much anymore if they can just rent or borrow

  4. #4
    Adverse effects on the UL market aside, MA would never condone this.

    If MA integrated the upcoming Neverdie API/SDK and bound peds and items to tokens on a blockchain, we would have the infrastructure to build bindable, transparent contracts and agreements between players that do not rely on trust or one's forum reputation to uphold.
    This would allow us to create all sorts of contracts with custom terms including item rental and who knows what else.. A contract to split team loot in a customised way for example - I'd make use of that immediately.

    But then again MA are autocrats so may as well just kill the idea here :P
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  5. #5
    Old Alpha Sionkiewicz's Avatar
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    If they are going to scam you, they are going to scam you. Having an agreement on a website won't stop them anymore than having an agreement in chat logs. MA isn't going to help you get your stuff back either way and most law enforcement isn't going to do much about it.

    Best advice is not to lend your stuff out at all.
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    why would you choose to make it a bad day?"
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeSkywalker View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Was wondering on the possibility of having a system whereby forum was used to document trades to avoid scamming/exploitation etc. For example say you were going to loan someone an item without collateral. You could make a thread in forum with details of agreement and both parties post to it (possibly even have two separate threads i.e. one by each party to avoid the situation where thread starter deletes a thread). Possibly even with picture as evidence of trade.


    Yes, it's not a substitute for collateral and other methods to avoid scamming. Also probably not legally binding. Therefore this method should be avoided.

    However, it could be better than nothing and one possible method to overcome the rule that prevents us of naming scammers on forum because everything would be in the open and details of trade agreement known before trade occurred. It wouldn't be an accusation without any fact and also by both parties agreeing to post about agreement on forum implies that they would be open to such scrutiny in future if problems occur.


    Also in case of disputes MA and ourselves have more factual info to go on and hence more likely to resolve disputes amicably. So while not a complete solution I think it has its merits and is worthy of consideration and possibly even a dedicated section for it on forum.
    please, let MA focus on the game instead of playing referee to monitor trades.

    They're already understaffed and unable to address all the open topics, and now you want them to cater trades as well?

    bad idea.

    Just ask for collateral if you want to lend. And if they dont want to pay collateral, that person is untrustworthy to begin with.

  7. #7
    Slayer GeorgeSkywalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semti View Post
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    Adverse effects on the UL market aside, MA would never condone this.

    If MA integrated the upcoming Neverdie API/SDK and bound peds and items to tokens on a blockchain, we would have the infrastructure to build bindable, transparent contracts and agreements between players that do not rely on trust or one's forum reputation to uphold.
    This would allow us to create all sorts of contracts with custom terms including item rental and who knows what else.. A contract to split team loot in a customised way for example - I'd make use of that immediately.

    But then again MA are autocrats so may as well just kill the idea here :P
    Interesting ideas there about the blockchain. I'm not sure MA would discard the idea so quickly, remember in early Project Entropia days MA had plans to have some kind of contracts in game. However, the idea was never implemented. Now if they originally had ideas to have contracts in game then shows they may be open to finally bringing those ideas to fruition provided environmental conditions are right and it fits in with their other plans.

    You say MA would never condone this but didn't mention why you think they won't condone it. I'm interested in knowing your opinion on that

  8. #8
    I actually meant that MA wouldn't be likely to police item renting/forum contracts - as evidenced by mastermesh's EULA quote...

    As a rule, it's pretty safe to say MA aren't going to waste resources supporting a potentially damaging activity that doesn't make them immediate profit.
    It's much easier for them to just ban that particular activity outright.

    Since we're on the subject, I think the only way I see MA releasing blockchain smart contracts is if they aren't editable by the user (that way they can be suitably controlled and taxed.)
    By having user-created contracts you open up a huge can of worms like people setting up private auction houses and god knows what else.
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  9. #9
    Guardian Solo4711's Avatar
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    mindark could implement this and make fast peds with it if they take a cut of the collateral.

    i dont think it would matter regarding "players who generate peds by an almost unemployed income" as the cld system works almost the same. hold an item and generate peds without further employment.

    open trade documentation could be interesting if the item tiers are documented to track back a stolen item back inside black market. though an item trade without collateral can still easily end with a sale of the item in black market as the seller will probably get 1/2 to 2/3 of the mu if the buyer wont give anything to a witchhunt by community. if at least action shall be taken to reverse the trades mindark would need to take the case of an official responsibility for a failed pvp trade. depends on if they want to edit the eula. probably they wont as everyone who decides himself different after a sale has been done will claim to be scamed or so.

    maybe like "mindark will interfere on pvp trades if the trade is officially documented as a rent of item and in all other pvp trade cases not"

    why not, transparency is always good leads to more security, trust and more willingness to invest.

    i think it would be good.

  10. #10
    Old Alpha Atrax's Avatar
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    It sounds to me like the basic description of a community enforced rep system.

    These work great, until they don't. You;; find plenty of people willing to gain rep in a load of small deals and then blow it all on one 'big' $xxxx.xx scam.

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