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Dev Notes #19 - Item Dropping Changes

Sounds like they removed a player loved feature to avoid fixing the root cause of lag in their platform - unless their saying their platform is so antiquated that it has trouble rendering many small objects - which is true but can be handled in the manner they handled the shop lag on arkadia (the initial lag that is).
 
atomicstorm said:
Sounds like they removed a player loved feature to avoid fixing the root cause of lag in their platform - unless their saying their platform is so antiquated that it has trouble rendering many small objects - which is true but can be handled in the manner they handled the shop lag on arkadia (the initial lag that is).
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Yep pretty much just a bandaid. Though, it shouldn't impact rendering really since that's client side, I think the issue is object tracking. As you move through an MMO the server code needs to figure out what objects are in your AoI and track events from those objects so that it can sync your client when, for example, an object translation occurs or animation plays.

I have never been very impressed with MA's development team, but I will also concede that it's very difficult for a 15 year old code base to not turn into spaghetti. I just don't think they have the talent to correct some of the glaring code problems, which is why so many bugs have gone unfixed for so long.

A simpler fix would have been to simply attach timers to the objects that return them to your inventory after a period of time if nobody picks it up, this would at least give them some degree of predictability in terms of average object count for litter. Then you just throw hardware at it. I'm always amazed how MMO servers could be lagged in this day and age when hardware and bandwidth is so cheap and easily scalable on the fly.
 
Detritus said:
Yep pretty much just a bandaid. Though, it shouldn't impact rendering really since that's client side, I think the issue is object tracking. As you move through an MMO the server code needs to figure out what objects are in your AoI and track events from those objects so that it can sync your client when, for example, an object translation occurs or animation plays.

I have never been very impressed with MA's development team, but I will also concede that it's very difficult for a 15 year old code base to not turn into spaghetti. I just don't think they have the talent to correct some of the glaring code problems, which is why so many bugs have gone unfixed for so long.

A simpler fix would have been to simply attach timers to the objects that return them to your inventory after a period of time if nobody picks it up, this would at least give them some degree of predictability in terms of average object count for litter. Then you just throw hardware at it. I'm always amazed how MMO servers could be lagged in this day and age when hardware and bandwidth is so cheap and easily scalable on the fly.
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The problem here is just that items we drop seem to have no "owner" anymore once we drop it,
otherwise some issues through the years had been solved quite easy.

15yrs of code, written by so many and probably with different level of knowledge, well one could ask
how anything actually works... :D
Then with features and actions calling same code in the library, this only makes it even harder.
Change the code for one thing and another thing could have negative outcome due to that.
Change it again and third feature could be faulty, and so on. One reason why some bugs never disapear.

Only way to solve it is to retwrite entire library, which ofc is so far from reality it can be, just too much
work to manage that.
Another thing to remember is that they seem to develop each feature with an absolute minimum of code
just to make it work in a very basic way. Not much of alternative and backup if bad things happen.
One should ofc keep code to a minimum, but not too simple either.
 
Joat said:
Another thing to remember is that they seem to develop each feature with an absolute minimum of code
just to make it work in a very basic way.
Click to expand...

This is one of many areas where I'm not an expert, and thank you all for the good insights on this topic.
I'd have assumed that most items placed on the ground need to be ready to only send their position (+orientation) and an object identifier to clients' machines so that the client-side can render them.
If colouring and texturing are possible for an item, ok that info too. ...and the full individual ID? Ok, not req for rendering, but still.

Isn't a more important consideration the refresh rate, i.e. how often the info is resent to clients? Surely objects that are known to be "unmoving" can be checked for a lot less than avatars, their worn and active tools/weaps, their spawned pets, a vehicle they may be travelling in ...

No probs if you don't want to make this into a lesson in databases and remote virtual world management, but I get the impression that people here could teach MA a thing or two - which is actually true of most audiences looking up at whoever is on the main stage... ;)
 
jetsina said:
This is one of many areas where I'm not an expert, and thank you all for the good insights on this topic.
I'd have assumed that most items placed on the ground need to be ready to only send their position (+orientation) and an object identifier to clients' machines so that the client-side can render them.
If colouring and texturing are possible for an item, ok that info too. ...and the full individual ID? Ok, not req for rendering, but still.

Isn't a more important consideration the refresh rate, i.e. how often the info is resent to clients? Surely objects that are known to be "unmoving" can be checked for a lot less than avatars, their worn and active tools/weaps, their spawned pets, a vehicle they may be travelling in ...
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Your guess is correct. A dropped item won't have active translations, and there's not really any animation triggers either, as far as I can tell dropped items just play their default animations.

There's not really a "refresh rate" though, it's more typically done by events, such that any avatars that get within the AoI radius of the items would then subscribe to any events for those items. The avatars don't poll for changes, when an event occurs it notifies the subscribers. In the case of dropped items they are pretty much static, so the only real event you need is "object destroyed" when someone picks up the item. If coded correctly the impact of events are pretty minimal. My guess is that MA has having a lot of difficulties managing their object graph internally, and that's where the performance is suffering. OFC, there's many different ways to do it, and I'm not privy to how MA does it, so this is all speculation. For all I know they are actually using some sort of polling mechanism on the objects, which would be highly inefficient.

They already use timers to clean up mining claims and dead mobs after a period of time. Presumably it'd be pretty simple to do the same with dropped items and just tag them with the person who dropped them so they could be returned to inventory after the expiration.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback though. I would hate to see the code behind this game. With the astonishing number of regressions they introduce with each patch, it's pretty clear they have very minimal test coverage and obviously little or no QA. Actually, forget regressions, half the time the new features they are introducing aren't even working.
 
Drop Tax the Drop Art?

I like the idea of disabling drop for noobs, kills one (or several) reasons MA gave for disabling drop.

I have no problem with disabling drop in certain areas (as discussed above), however most of the universe should remain a drop-able zone.

Drop Tax Suggestion:
This could be implemented in several ways, I propose a 2 pec tax for any item dropped, and a 1 pec reward for anyone who picks up a dropped item. The other PEC goes to MA to improve infrastructure that seems to be needed for server performance.

Just throwing the idea out there...here's a short video example of 'Drop Art':

The platform in the video was located 2km in the sky above Arkadia, so no need to transmit the data to anyone other than party visitors (yes, we had parties there!).

-Obie-
 
How about allowing items to be dropped at out of the way places, in servers that at generally not busy,

There are places I can go to where I will not see a single green dot for over an hour in my radar.
 
I would try to be brief in this as much as I can and with my bad english as usual :)
I tried alot of MMO's the last decade and I choosed to stay in Entropia Universe mainly for two reasons:

1. The MMO Entertaiment and the sandbox part of the platform/universe!

2. Ther real cash economy system.

Entertaiment (fun) experience.
Some examples are the user interface, third person view, avatar animation (looking aged now) and the social part of the game, such as interaction with others, events, expeditions and occassionaly in world parties.
It's useless to get into details for all the above categories but at least for the issue we talking right now I can say this.
I'm one of those who found items in world, randomly and during events also and while I was newbie. Those items came from some wonderfull people who loved to share, giving away and make surprises.
I like to see new players to experience the same, because it's a great feeling and make people to stay longer in this game and have fun.
Entertaiment and the sandbox experience it's under questioning from my point of view for many reasons and for long time now, not only from this latest change of MA dev team.
This decision about "dropping things" simply adding more to the negative side.

As about performance excuse, I'm not of those who believe it will help. (just my personal opinion!)

*at least at ROCKtropia I don't see any difference.
I'm still falling through my estates floor and still see my shop vanished every time I'm doing work in it. Also my inventory, my storage and my shopkeeper in the shop still appear with great latency. That's something I experience for couple years now.

So I vote, bring back the whole "drop item" thing.
 
atomicstorm said:
Sounds like they removed a player loved feature to avoid fixing the root cause of lag in their platform - unless their saying their platform is so antiquated that it has trouble rendering many small objects - which is true but can be handled in the manner they handled the shop lag on arkadia (the initial lag that is).
Click to expand...

The server shouldn't need to render anything, all it needs to do is deliver information what is where, or more precisely a location and a movement vector updated just frequently enough to allow for sufficiently synchronous interpolation in the clients present. All other data needed for rendering is residing client-side (except custom tattoos which aren't the problem here). Many small objects not present in the design files do create some payload, but since the system obviously can handle a dense mob spawn all of which are individually moving and this to a number of clients at the site, I have trouble finding it plausible that even hundreds of still objects are anywhere nearly as much of a burden. I suspect ulterior motives for giving this explanation.
 
I always thought item-dropping is a essential special feature of Entropia,
that i never saw in other games. Without them it loses some flair and delight.

For the security concern i recommend that only the previous owner may pick up
his stuff for a delay of some minutes.

So I also vote, bring back the "drop item" thing.
 
Simple fix...

We already have 'No vehicle' zones to prevent lag and other issues in busy areas
Add a rule to that area that also prevents items being placed other than on estates.

Rest of game can then have items left for others to find, treasure hunts player art etc

If it is still seen as a longer term issue, how about all items time out after say 24 hours from being dropped and return to inventory, or even to some MA account that donates the ped/dollar equivalence to a non-contentious international charity. Red Cross/Green Crescent or MSF perhaps.

This way players can still have player led fun, but MA restricts the effects of lag.

Though tbh I have found lag far far worse since the VU that stopped us dropping things.. so I suspect this is all based on an assumption by MA rather than tested values.
 
I recall years when this game had far more active participants, and much more junk being dropped on regular occasion without issues.

I too suspect that someone is taking an "educated" guess as to why the system still not 100% from the massive lag issues we suffered last year. I also suspect they really don't have anyone with the knowledge and skill to uncover the core issues that plague them. Mindark is much more like an office full of hobbyists barely using professional software, than a group of professionals who know the software well, heck most of them are animators and gfx people from what I can tell. Coding/debugging an engine is quite different than making and animating a model.
 
IMO they changed it so they can tracked multi accounts dropping items to the main account easily via trade.
 
Compliments on offering an explanation!
 
dan trin said:
IMO they changed it so they can tracked multi accounts dropping items to the main account easily via trade.
Click to expand...


That can also be tracked when multi accounter uses drop trades - every item has a unique ID.

Its fairly easy to find repeating drop trades between the same 2 Avas, when running a software searching through their log files to discover especially that.
 
As any glitcher can testify it is not the item drops that slow the game down but rather more likely the wasteful coding that exists throughout the game in the form of triple layered walls & floors, hidden land masses and half built discarded buildings beneath the surface.
 
rumour_control.jpg


Good to have an 'official' answer on such a major change to how the universe has worked until now. :yup:
 
you have to be smart to succeed in surviving, but on the other hand our intelligence allows us not to drop an object. I just love it
 
hi

Hi

I don't meen burst anybody bubble but....how far did the ban EP4 petition with 10000'sv otes get? no where. For better for worse you wont change anything so PLEESE save your time :) :) :laugh:

Is aboultly NO POINT making YET ANOTHER petition to make it so you can drop items again. They WONT change it nor will they ever ban explosive projectiles. no petitions PLEASE because no point

https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...nge-them)-Part-2&highlight=explosive+petition

Do not bother :girl::eyecrazy::silly2:
 
Thanks. Makes a lot of sense too. Did not realize that could be the case. Now could you please relax the tight coding on the loot-pool :)
 
Granny Rowan said:
The thing I have always loved and admired about EU compared to other games is that the game play is not fixed and that players have in the past been able to even encouraged to enhance the game by their own actions.

You (MA) may see dropped items as a nuisance and I have no doubt it gives some minor accounting issues with tracking their whereabouts. Lag...really I very much doubt it unless silly amounts are dropped in a small area, and that tbh is unlikely as I am sure we have better things to do with our ped than throw it on the ground in large quantities. Though easily fixed, make it a no drop zone if it is a busy server, same as no vehicle zones.

Now please flip the coin and look at the other side... player interaction is a massive part of EU and in many ways has been it's greatest asset. Players have fun and form friendships from these additional activities (treasure trails, foraging hunts, hidden surprises for players in locations planet wide). For many it is the strength of those friendships that have quelled the wish to rage quit when things go wrong. For others it is simply the feel-good factor of giving a helping hand to someone, making their day a little brighter when they find the surprise you left.

You say 'We are of course open to creating exceptions for special cases' please explain how this would work with scavenger hunts, treasure trails etc...where is the fun if we know it is all in that 4 x 4 square at a specified location...really...c'mon think outside the box for a moment.

Lag is not caused by a few additional items dropped...that is BS, those items would still exist and have to be drawn and accounted for even if I placed them in my inventory /storage / shop / apartment.

Better to look see if you are drawing things that are unseen. Water under buildings makes for more lag than hard terrain (for that matter why is anything under the surface or building drawn at all? we know it is cos most of us have fallen through the surface and swum there. Waterfalls nearby but unseen inside buildings , items in nearby shops and apartments all contribute to lag yet they are usually unseen.

Stop blaming the players and start looking at your basic programming before you have the place all to yourselves but totally lag free
Click to expand...

I think this is just one example of an obnoxious trend in video game (software in general?) design to relieve players of the "responsibility," the "burden" of deciding for themselves what they find enjoyable. There was nothing fundamentally wrong with the sandbox nature of VU 9 Entropia. Of course, there was potential for improvement via, among other possibilities, the new systems we have now, i.e., space, fort event battles, Compet integration (errrr...), but EU had a unique and refreshing skeletal structure, one which left a colonist's path through the game open to his or her play style. Now we have more and more focus on pushing the mission system, web shop starter bundles, assessing developer psychology to determine what actions one may and may not perform with a Sleipnir, while slowly removing many features like sitting, lying down, sliding, item art, treasure hunts, etc., which gave the players robust tools to design their own user experience.

Why do the N64 Zelda games remain popular decades after release? It's not because the quests were ultra-finely tuned to optimize replayability, and it's certainly not because the developers are pumping it with new levels, new characters, new DLC, new this and that content every month. It's because the game itself, encompassing both intended features and gradually discovered glitches and sequence breaks, has such a robust structure that players are still able to find ways to extract more entertainment value from it. Look up Ocarina of Time Bingo for a prime example of this; organic replay value that has extended the long term utility of the game orders of magnitude beyond most of today's mediocre and expensive-to-develop linear content pump models.

Yet the latter appears to have a higher profit ceiling, so what can you do? The same thing you'd do as a Youtuber if you realized good thumbnails draw in new users faster than good video content retains them; you'd spent more time optimizing the thumbnail algorithm than curating your video content. Maybe this is just the only stable equilibrium of the economics of game design, or maybe the trend is ripe for disruption by someone who can market a pithy message conveying that the current trend isn't in players' ultimate best interests. I was hoping MindArk would be that someone, but it appears they can't beat 'em so they're joining 'em.
 


guess we won't see that again :(
 
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Granny Rowan said:
The thing I have always loved and admired about EU compared to other games is that the game play is not fixed and that players have in the past been able to even encouraged to enhance the game by their own actions.

You (MA) may see dropped items as a nuisance and I have no doubt it gives some minor accounting issues with tracking their whereabouts. Lag...really I very much doubt it unless silly amounts are dropped in a small area, and that tbh is unlikely as I am sure we have better things to do with our ped than throw it on the ground in large quantities. Though easily fixed, make it a no drop zone if it is a busy server, same as no vehicle zones.

Now please flip the coin and look at the other side... player interaction is a massive part of EU and in many ways has been it's greatest asset. Players have fun and form friendships from these additional activities (treasure trails, foraging hunts, hidden surprises for players in locations planet wide). For many it is the strength of those friendships that have quelled the wish to rage quit when things go wrong. For others it is simply the feel-good factor of giving a helping hand to someone, making their day a little brighter when they find the surprise you left.

You say 'We are of course open to creating exceptions for special cases' please explain how this would work with scavenger hunts, treasure trails etc...where is the fun if we know it is all in that 4 x 4 square at a specified location...really...c'mon think outside the box for a moment.

Lag is not caused by a few additional items dropped...that is BS, those items would still exist and have to be drawn and accounted for even if I placed them in my inventory /storage / shop / apartment.

Better to look see if you are drawing things that are unseen. Water under buildings makes for more lag than hard terrain (for that matter why is anything under the surface or building drawn at all? we know it is cos most of us have fallen through the surface and swum there. Waterfalls nearby but unseen inside buildings , items in nearby shops and apartments all contribute to lag yet they are usually unseen.

Stop blaming the players and start looking at your basic programming before you have the place all to yourselves but totally lag free
Click to expand...

Tried to drop an item on the ground today, searched for why unable, found this thread. Ty Granny!
 
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