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How does avatar skill affect the crit reduction?

An OJ data point:
lvl 9.88 Evader

L1 Scavenger Wolf Young (4 normal dmg)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.3 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 7.1 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.9 points of damage.

L1 Scavenger Wolf Mature (5 normal dmg)
Reduced 0.8 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 8.4 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.8 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.8 points of damage.
 
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Haruto Rat said:
An OJ data point:
lvl 9.88 Evader

L1 Scavenger Wolf Young (4 normal dmg)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.3 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 7.1 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.6 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.9 points of damage.

L1 Scavenger Wolf Mature (5 normal dmg)
Reduced 0.8 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 8.4 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.8 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 6.8 points of damage.
Click to expand...

So in this case, you've already maxed reduction on both with less than 9 levels evader over them, and it's rounded up. (.15*5=.75-->.8)

It's obviously not just a fixed increment of evader over mob level then, because others aren't maxed with more than 10 levels over. I'll make a spreadsheet with results so far and put a link on OP.

I take it you didn't wear armor on them and thus didn't get any armor crits?
 
Doer said:
So in this case, you've already maxed reduction on both with less than 9 levels evader over them, and it's rounded up. (.15*5=.75-->.8)

It's obviously not just a fixed increment of evader over mob level then, because others aren't maxed with more than 10 levels over. I'll make a spreadsheet with results so far and put a link on OP.

I take it you didn't wear armor on them and thus didn't get any armor crits?
Click to expand...

No armor, of course

Not sure about rounding up; given MA's track record of fuzzy rounding, it could be something as silly as floor(floor(x)-floor(y)) :D

I think I can supply another even weirder data point... *wanders off to troll some L2 Forum Trolls*
 
Good news, everyone.

crit_reduction_plot_502093.gif

Plot showing Ratio of Evader to Mob Level vs % maxed on crit reduction


Here's the spreadsheet

Required reviewing O2's screenshots to realize that they weren't classified properly in the first post. Conclusions in follow-up post.
 
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L2 Forum Troll (RT Bar Fight instance)
normal damage 1.0 (always!)

Two damage crits in 20 min, both 1.7 damage, 0.2 reduction

No screenies unfortunately, all Malevich :(
 
Something to ponder: not all L0 mobs are harmless. Highland Allophyl Young in Calypso Gateway is L0 but does hit and agro by itself. The question hence is which way the L number is rounded - from half up (more likely) or always down.
 
And to sum up the results and the rather conclusive line they fall onto:

Conclusion

Reduction in critical damage depends on the ratio between your Evader (or Dodger, when appropriate) professional level and the mob's L level. When you have approximately 3x the Evader level as the mob's L level (in other words, that ratio is 300%), the reduction is maxed at 15% (until the buff items show up). This is manifested by having 15% of the mob's maximum damage removed from an "Additional damage" critical hit, and having 15% of the damage that would have pierced your armor not do so in an "armor piercing" critical (so 15% armor protection against mob).

Another way of describing how crit reduction happens is that you get 5% crit reduction when your Evader is the same as the mob level, and an additional 5% for doubling and then tripling that level. At that point the reduction is maxed (for now).

Here's the plot that shows the most complete summary of data so far.
crit_plot.gif


The plot is based on this spreadsheet.

Comments

The way the crit reduction works puts a very high premium on Evader for the buff items and consumables to be useful. Consider that an avatar needs an Evader level of 150 :eyecrazy: to get maximum reduction on a level 50 mob!

There are several ways buffs could work. I suspect there will items or consumables that will effectively amplify the effect (raising the maxed reduction higher than 15%) or will instead add a fixed % reduction regardless of level, like reinforced armor with +20% maximum crit reduction, or with +20% crit reduction.

If the buffs work as amplifiers, rather than fixed % buffs, one would hope that there would also be items / consumables that will effectively magnify the Evader level for the purposes of maxing the reduction. Otherwise, the mobs where the reduction is really important to avoid crit kills (level 40+) will never be maxed (e.g. Evader level 120+) by most players in this lifetime...


Moar data

The most useful data at this point to refine this plot is at the extreme ends of it (high and low ratios). My test vs punies was rendered useless because Haruto's ratio vs them is much lower and still maxed, but even that was a 900% ratio, so it is 008's data vs drones that forms the last point, and he may actually be maxed because his armor protected a variable amount against drones. I suspect that the slope is actually 3.


Summary of previous issues

Okay here's the story so far, replying to my previous observations and issues.

Doer said:
You must have put on heavier armor toward the end or have an odd piece... What was your total impact protection during each of those crits? If it was something like 5B+ghost for the first few, you're maxed.
Click to expand...

Actually, the only armor piercing crit was the last one. Once i corrected that by looking at his screenshots, his data points all fell into place.

So some observations and issues so far:
  • damage reduced is always the same for each type of crit per mob or mob level vs evader level: True so far, and seems to be related only to Evader/Dodger and mob level
    1. maximum reduction on damage crits is 0.15*mob_max_dmg True
    2. maximum reduction on armor penetration seems to be 0.15*armor protection vs mob True, but it can seem to change if effective protection of armor varies with mob damage This should mean it's no longer possible to get armor penetration crits without armor on, as i was told and seem to recall you could -- please report if you do get an armor crit without armor now.
    3. The limit for damage crits is also the limit for armor crits if it's the lesser value of 1 and 2 (seen in O2's data where the armor crit and damage crit were same) Uncertain. This will require a massively over-armored hunt to test. It's not really relevant for most scenarios.
  • Even with mobs of higher level than evader, there is some reduction of crit.True. No matter how high the mob level is, you will have some crit reduction.
  • Not having sure data on mob_max_dmg makes it tricky to decipher the results so far, however, due to armor crits being relative to armor protection, we can hopefully bypass that by measuring what % of armor protection the dmg is reduced by, and use that as a gauge to how close to maxed each (evader, mob level) pair is. An interesting side effect is that this means under the right conditions you can use an armor crit and damage crit together for a mob to find its max damage!True, but with rounding it might not be of any practical use over the existing method.
Click to expand...
 
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GJ Doer. I knew you could do it. :yay:

Unable to +rep, but I owe you one. ;)


Want verification data?
I've only managed to get 1 crit today. But Neconu is pretty blind and don't hit much at all:
Neconu young
4.3 reduction
of 63.5 armor pen crit

Evader level 33
 
Vedder said:
GJ Doer. I knew you could do it. :yay:

Unable to +rep, but I owe you one. ;)


Want verification data?
I've only managed to get 1 crit today. But Neconu is pretty blind and don't hit much at all:
Neconu young
4.3 reduction
of 63.5 armor pen crit

Evader level 33
Click to expand...

Thanks. :) Neconu young is L21, giving ratio of 33/21= 157%, so you are probably 52% maxed and the data point will be in that pack in the middle of the plot... but i'll need your armor and plate info to use an armor penetration crit.
 
Haruto Rat said:
L2 Forum Troll (RT Bar Fight instance)
normal damage 1.0 (always!)

Two damage crits in 20 min, both 1.7 damage, 0.2 reduction

No screenies unfortunately, all Malevich :(
Click to expand...

Without knowing if it's rounded or ceilinged that isn't very useful. In any case, you have 9.88/2= 494% ratio and therefore should be well-maxed anyway. A level 4 mob would be useful because it would give you a 247% ratio, which we don't have a data point for.
 
Doer said:
A level 4 mob would be useful because it would give you a 247% ratio, which we don't have a data point for.
Click to expand...

I'll take a look around what L4 I can harass on RT without burning a fortune on healing. Bank Robbers, probably.
 
Doer said:
Thanks. :) Neconu young is L21, giving ratio of 33/21= 157%, so you are probably 52% maxed and the data point will be in that pack in the middle of the plot... but i'll need your armor and plate info to use an armor penetration crit.
Click to expand...
Oh right.
It was Ghost+5B and 2 pcs of Bear+5B. I guess it's not very good to verify data with mixed sets.
 
In case it helps:
Im sitting at 4% crit protection with leviathan Level 32ish mobs, at 3100 evade (26 evader).
 
forgo said:
In case it helps:
Im sitting at 4% crit protection with leviathan Level 32ish mobs, at 3100 evade (26 evader).
Click to expand...

Thanks but will need less "ish". :laugh: Leviathon mature or young? Mature is level 32, but need it to be sure because old and young are much lower/higher. The 4% is based on an armor crit? One or more specific cases with crit type and reduction and mob and armor (for armor piercing) would be useful to verify.

ETA: using your numbers assuming mature gives you 27% maxed at a ratio of 81%, while i had 23% maxed at 71% ratio. Your data point would fall right on the line.
 
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Evader lvl 9.90

L4 ROCKtropian (normal damage 3)
Reduced 0.4 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 4.6 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.4 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 5.6 points of damage.

L4 Hater (a variety of Forum Troll, normal damage 2)
Reduced 0.2 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 3.4 points of damage.
(...)
Reduced 0.2 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 2.9 points of damage.

Notes:
- Bank Robbers won't do - for two quite obvious reasons that's a dodge mob :)
- I understand that with bigger damage rounding effects would be smaller but most RT mobs have insane HA and I don't feel very rich today :D
 
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remontoire said:
2.6 reduction and 29.5 damage on a crit from a L16 molisk guardian. This is about 8.09%. My evader is 30.42.
Click to expand...

Armor piercing hit. The hit landed on either Shogun + 2A or Predator + 2A. The protection vs Molisk would be the same.
 
Haruto Rat said:
Evader lvl 9.90
L4 ROCKtropian (normal damage 3)

Reduced 0.4 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 4.6 points of damage.

Notes:
- Bank Robbers won't do - for two quite obvious reasons that's a dodge mob :)
- I understand that with bigger damage rounding effects would be smaller but most RT mobs have insane HA and I don't feel very rich today :D
Click to expand...

Heh. Good catch with bank robbers. You dodged that bullet.

Yeah don't go out of your way. We've got good data and i'll fill in the plot as more comes in. If we assume a simple round from 3.5, your data point fits perfectly on the line, but 0.4 skews it quite a bit.
 
Evader lvl 9.93
L3 Exarosaur Young (? normal damage)
Reduced 2.3 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 27.1 points of damage.

I added some more data on L4 RT mobs above as well.
 
A data point from Sneaky Heiko Rat...

Evader lvl 6.58
L0 Highland Allophyl Young (normal damage 6 (?))
reduced 1.1, taken 9.5

Maybe this helps to figure out which way are L-numbers rounded :)
 
Good job, Doer. Sounds like you don't need my L5 mob (merp) vs lvl 35 evader data points. However, I'll be hunting lvl 15-20 mob later. I'll record those if I remember.
 
lvl 9.95 Evader
L0 Freshwater Calypsocod Young (6 normal damage)

Reduced 0.9 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 10.0 points of damage.
Reduced 0.9 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 8.1 points of damage.

Doesn't seem to fit the theory, does it?
 
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Don't know if any of this will help you but here it is (a bit messed up with the formatting unfortunately):

Code: 
Mob	Maturity	L Number	Type	Armour	Reduced	Received	Evader/Dodger
Cornundos	Puny	2	Additional	None	3	33.1	54.80
Drone	Gen 4	12	Additional	Shogun+6a	7.9	55.9	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 5	38	Additional	Salamander+6a	10.1	202.2	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 2	29	Armor	Salamander+6a	7.2	103.2	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 1	26	Armor	Salamander+6a	6.8	59	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 3	32	Armor	Salamander+6a	6.6	121.3	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 4	35	Additional	Salamander+6a	10.1	169.2	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 3	32	Armor	Salamander+6a	6.6	108.8	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 1	26	Armor	Salamander+6a	8	93.6	50.34
Legionnaire	Gen 2	29	Additional	Salamander+6a	10.2	120.7	50.35
Legionnaire	Gen 2	29	Additional	Salamander+6a	10.2	90.6	50.35
Kingfisher	Young	26	Additional	PoE+5b	12.4	135.5	54.83
Kingfisher	Young	26	Additional	PoE+5b	12.4	99.9	54.83
Marcimex	Devastator	66	Armor	PoE+5b	3.6	98.4	54.83
Marcimex	Ravager	54	Armor	PoE+5b	4.4	131.8	54.83
Marcimex	Devastator	66	Armor	PoE+5b	3.7	158.4	54.83
Marcimex	Devastator	66	Additional	PoE+5b	7.7	233.7	54.84

Probably more useful in CSV:

Mob,Maturity,L Number,Type,Armour,Reduced,Received,Evader/Dodger
Cornundos,Puny,2,Additional,None,3,33.1,54.80
Drone,Gen 4,12,Additional,Shogun+6a,7.9,55.9,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 5,38,Additional,Salamander+6a,10.1,202.2,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 2,29,Armor,Salamander+6a,7.2,103.2,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 1,26,Armor,Salamander+6a,6.8,59,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 3,32,Armor,Salamander+6a,6.6,121.3,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 4,35,Additional,Salamander+6a,10.1,169.2,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 3,32,Armor,Salamander+6a,6.6,108.8,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 1,26,Armor,Salamander+6a,8,93.6,50.34
Legionnaire,Gen 2,29,Additional,Salamander+6a,10.2,120.7,50.35
Legionnaire,Gen 2,29,Additional,Salamander+6a,10.2,90.6,50.35
Kingfisher,Young,26,Additional,PoE+5b,12.4,135.5,54.83
Kingfisher,Young,26,Additional,PoE+5b,12.4,99.9,54.83
Marcimex,Devastator,66,Armor,PoE+5b,3.6,98.4,54.83
Marcimex,Ravager,54,Armor,PoE+5b,4.4,131.8,54.83
Marcimex,Devastator,66,Armor,PoE+5b,3.7,158.4,54.83
Marcimex,Devastator,66,Additional,PoE+5b,7.7,233.7,54.84
 
Haruto Rat said:
lvl 9.95 Evader
L0 Freshwater Calypsocod Young (6 normal damage)

Reduced 0.9 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 10.0 points of damage.
Reduced 0.9 points of critical damage
Critical hit - additional damage! You take 8.1 points of damage.

Doesn't seem to fit the theory, does it?
Click to expand...

Only problem here is division by zero using our current algorithm, but you were overmaxed for L1 so should be maxed for these. Right, so 6*.15=0.9 reduction, which is what you got. Nothing wrong there.
 
Haruto Rat said:
A data point from Sneaky Heiko Rat...

Evader lvl 6.58
L0 Highland Allophyl Young (normal damage 6 (?))
reduced 1.1, taken 9.5

Maybe this helps to figure out which way are L-numbers rounded :)
Click to expand...


Should be maxed on L1 so assume so on L0. Then:
6*.15 = 0.9. 6 can't be max damage.
7*.15 = 1.05, so simple rounding could give us the correct result, and it seems these do 7 max damage.
 
I don't know... some of the data in this thread don't make seance when I compared them. At aren't critical damage 2xmax damage? So if we only can get 15 % of the max damage, that is not a reduction with 15%, it's a reduction with 7,5% of the critical damage?
 
billairboy said:
I don't know... some of the data in this thread don't make seance when I compared them. At aren't critical damage 2xmax damage? So if we only can get 15 % of the max damage, that is not a reduction with 15%, it's a reduction with 7,5% of the critical damage?
Click to expand...

It's a 15% reduction to the additional damage dealt (which is equal to the maximum normal damage).
 
I got 4.0 points damage reduction on a 129.8 point hit (after armor) from a spider young that has about 22 levels of mob level over my evader.
 
Updated plot including three points from Oleg and Remontoire that were not in the crowded center:
crit_plot.gif
 
remontoire said:
I got 4.0 points damage reduction on a 129.8 point hit (after armor) from a spider young that has about 22 levels of mob level over my evader.
Click to expand...

Another spider report - 1.9 out of 119.x ... this is still at -22 levels, so the axes does not start from 0 levels .
 
remontoire said:
Another spider report - 1.9 out of 119.x ... this is still at -22 levels, so the axes does not start from 0 levels .
Click to expand...

Reduction on damage crits should be the same for the same mob. Was this a higher mat spider or an armor crit?

The comparison between evader and level is a ratio, so there should always be some degree of reduction except in the effectively unobtainable ratio of 0. This was described in the conclusions.
 
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