A PE union/official body to represent the players?

Inspired by the discussion here, I started playing with the idea of a PE union. In the thread I stated that MA would not agree with a union, and I still think that is the case.

However, Fade made some good points in his post. If an official body of players get together to represent the players, and act as representatives between the playerbase and MA, we might be onto something.

Of course "ATHs for everybody" would not be asked, but it would be a good way to get some form of a say in how the universe is handled and which course it takes.

The representatives could be elected, to ensure a fair system. They would not gain anything. No special priviledges, no extra features, commands, nothing. They would not receive compensation, but would gladly represent you out of love for the game and the players. They could provide the feedback that the community is looking for, and provide some insight to MA of what their customers wishes for.

This system would also serve MA. If, rather than having to read 50 new support threads about the same issue, they just receive a single post. Well written, with a detailed explanation, and without emotional language.


A nice start for these representatives for example could be rallying MA to address the amount of bugs. This thread speaks for itself. I am simply amazed by how lenient everybody is, really. Basically people accept that in order to be able to play, they have to relog 5 or 6 times just to ensure they can hunt/mine/craft. And they do so willingly. Heck, they even work by submitting support cases about it.

(On a personal note, that is something that annoyed me to no extent in the past. MA suspects us to find bugs, submit bugs, and then to wait and put up with the bugs until they see fit to fix them. Or not).

If the bugs are not fixed with the highest priority possible, the game will soon be completely unplayable. The fact the bugs mentioned in the thread above have been around for so long without MA taking notice could mean two things: Either they just haven't figured out the bug is there (which would be odd considering it affects so many people, and they play themselves), or they are unable to fix it.

The longer they keep duct taping the balloon, the bigger the chance there will soon be a tear big enough to ensure no amount of duct tape will help. What they should do is properly fix it, possibly even by rebuilding some components of the game from scratch.


Finally, to address the inevitable question what would be done if MA just ignores this plea, we could work to ensure the word gets out to those players who do not know of this forum. Advertise in game, etc. If enough people sign their support, MA will have no choice but to listen. And if worst comes to worst, there's always the press...

Discuss.

It's a fine idea given MA seem to ignore the basic rule that the customer, ultimately, is king.

Unions only have power though if they are prepared to withold something the people they are dealing with value - labour in RL, deposits in EU. So if push comes to shove this only works if a substantial group of people are prepared to stop depositing for a while.

In the strictest sense this could be seen as against the EULA (if they choose to define it as badmouthing MA). Banning everyone wouldn't work (= EU down the drain) but I would not be surprised if the banned or threatened to ban the organisors. So everyone needs to be prepared to stand up for them too.

Good initiative - something needs to change or the game will become unplayable for the majority - and if that's the case even the fanbois will suffer.

Interesting thing will come for example if MA faces economical difficulties. They introduce something to get extra revenues and players union responds that by stopping deposits which will kill EU.

Still I think it would be good to have one united place for players to vote for opinions and a way to represent MA the results. It would have way more effect on MA to show them for example that 67% of players are against this feature or 82% of players think fixing this bug should be in priority.

We can all already stop depositing if MA does something we dont like. Power in union is much in supporting things you dont necessarily care so much to get support in your causes. I'm a bit sceptical how it works in EU since players are also competitors of each other. One players cause can well harm other player. Such examples would be for example crafting changes that would benefit hunters. If 80% of players want a change in EU that will harm crafters but benefit hunters, will players union then stop deposits and force MA do that change?

Maybe someone should actually contact MA and as what they think about community spokes person or such?

I hope MA realise that MA Assistant 08 is the one for this job.
Having a player or ex player on the inside at MA is the only good thing they've done in a loooooong time.

wanda said:

I hope MA realise that MA Assistant 08 is the one for this job.
Having a player or ex player on the inside at MA is the only good thing they've done in a loooooong time.

Click to expand...

I think everyone can agree on that and likes to have ASS 08 ingame. Keep up the good work ASS 08

This is all fine and dandy..except the fact

1.) MA DOSEN'T HAVE to listen to us..

2.) The EULA States (Section 17)
"If you do not want to accept the changes proposed by MindArk or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your account and cease using Entropia Universe."

In other words MA is saying "If you don't like it the way it is..LEAVE!"

I'm pretty sure that would cover your proposed remedy..

3.) The only way MA will sit up and take notice is if a very large amount of players hit them in the pocketbook, and that kind of amount is not seriously avaiable for that kind of action.

They don't seem to care anymore that the players are the reason they exist, and have become pretty complacent (with good reason) that they can do anything they want because the players have proven they will just put up with it..and what can they do? see section 17

+rep Vig.. but the horse was dead a long time ago..kicking it won't help..
You can count on my support (well there goes that account ) if this ever gets going..

Cheers

Very good points and good idea. Might be hard to set up/get MA to play along but I'm all for it and you have my support.

+rep

Has anyone considered arranging a mass strike?
There's 8000 users on this forum alone. Granted, not all are active, but there's currently 200 members online and it's currently only 10am here.

I'd estimate that a good few thousand people use this forum on a regular basis, and I also expect that most of the people here are depositing players.

If everyone went on "deposit strike" for a week or two (or three), I wonder how MA would react.

Discution will be if discution MA whant.
And MA will whant discution if MA feel they need it.
MA will feel they need discution when they will see they income go down , or player play less, when a massive left will happen , when the subscription will stop ....
All that will happen when a serious concurance will apear.
And , probably , when the concurance will appear evrything will change so fast around , that MA will fall like a crap rock in a lake.
I really dont think MA is prepared to be in war with an other game yet , they are total full of them self.
And so far , the only real step i have see from MA to speak with player is ASS08(what a good name).
ASS08 is for me , the best chance to MA to wake up.
There other game around that are developping.
The universe system is very more handelled by SL allready.
And i am sure for the game part som sony or ubi soft will come with something soon.when the cake looks big and good lots of people whant a pieces.

For now , a player union dont have mutch power.
Beside saying we wont deposit.That probably a large part of that kind of union is allready doing , no power to the union.

MA dont have any need to listen such union , because they have nothing to loss.

When i see how they drive lots of things , how support reply , how they fix bug , how they create feature ....
Creating a union would be a bit more give them power.

Creating an union would be finally , begging them a bit more to have our "fix" of dope.
We alone do their job.
We , create our own problem by tieing up our self like a nice slave , and we are just showing our ass to be slaped ....
I dont think begging MA to have this or that done is the doog way.

So far for me , best way , is stop deposit , and play something else.
I still love PE and hate MA.
As the game evolving dont enjoy me enought , i now go elsewhere.
Its MA game ( casino , universe , beta , what ever they wish) and its up to them to drive it in a customers compliant way.
I dont think i am anymore a customer that is wished by MA , and as customer i am no more sure the product go with my wish.
So the moving is on the way , wait and see.

Question is : How many time we will go at our drugs dealler when he allready stoped to give us the product we ask for ...

The idea is twee. I love the sentiment, but it just would not work. The logistics of such a thing would be a nightmare.
I have no time to aid this mammoth task, but I can contribute my views.

On a side note.
Support will sort out a direct problem for you, so long as you word your case
Well and don't get overly emotional.

All these discussions stem from the fact that we, the cashflow, do not feel like we are important to MA. We feel like our problems are simply dismissed.


Perhaps instead of a house of commons, or union or whatever you might call it, we can have the voting terminals reinstated.
This would be very simple for MA to implement and is entirely controllable by them.
At least we'd be able to vote on something; at least it would appear that we have choice to make a difference in our second homes.
A public announcement could be made by Mindark, advising us that a new vote is due (once a month is the minimum) ad we have 1 week to cast our votes.

I understand that Mindark have their own business to look out for, but they really do need to involve us a little more.

In the future, would you like:

A
B
C
D

Of the known bugs, which would you like fixed

A
B
C
D

Etc.

Mikeemoo said:

Has anyone considered arranging a mass strike?
There's 8000 users on this forum alone. Granted, not all are active, but there's currently 200 members online and it's currently only 10am here.

I'd estimate that a good few thousand people use this forum on a regular basis, and I also expect that most of the people here are depositing players.

If everyone went on "deposit strike" for a week or two (or three), I wonder how MA would react.

Click to expand...

IMHO, that would be a somewhat extreme solution that would not help the players at all, Vig and Fade have stated this in another thread..We don't want to 'hurt' MA we just want them to listen to whos paying thier bills...

Cheers

Radio said:

Of the known bugs, which would you like fixed

A
B
C
D

Click to expand...

How about..

E. All of them. Stop implimenting new ******* features like throwing ******* ADVERTS at us and fix the hundreds of bugs in your ******* product which I spend so much money on each ******* month. You ****s.

wanda said:

I hope MA realise that MA Assistant 08 is the one for this job.
Having a player or ex player on the inside at MA is the only good thing they've done in a loooooong time.

Click to expand...

And why do you think its a player or ex player? From what ive been able to find out its a support guy..

Ontopic..
A few inputs to this discussion, Ill paste links and not entire posts..
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316235&postcount=36
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316375&postcount=48
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=316392&postcount=49
Especially 48, and 49 is very much onto this particular topic while 36 more describes what happened last time such a "union" was made..

EDIT: Fixed links. Removed post 46 from the list as its quoted in 48.

Alexis Starfire said:

IMHO, that would be a somewhat extreme solution that would not help the players at all, Vig and Fade have stated this in another thread..We don't want to 'hurt' MA we just want them to listen to whos paying thier bills...

Cheers

Click to expand...

I believe that the only way to get MA to listen to us is to threaten them. They're off searching for new ways to increase revenue before they've satisfied the basic needs of the most vital part of this whole system. Us. The depositing players.

Mikeemoo said:

How about..

E. All of them. Stop implimenting new ******* features like throwing ******* ADVERTS at us and fix the hundreds of bugs in your ******* product which I spend so much money on each ******* month. You ****s.

Click to expand...

The idea with making a priority list is to decide the order of which tasks to complete. Making priorities like
1. Get some sleep
2. Have a shower
3. Get something to eat
4. Go pwn some n00bs

dont mean that you dont WISH to do all, its a matter of importance vs time. If you can get all 4 done in the time available, thats good. If you can only do 2 of the 4 in the available time, you have to do the two most important.


And this one thing goes for EVERY aspect of life and buisness..
The customer is NOT always right
Simply because in many cases what he think is right is not possible, or because he simply DONT know if what he think he want will accomplish what he need to be done.
That is why not all stores is self-serve, especially tech stores. Altho some of the people working in them, compared to ACTUAL professionals is useless..

I think this could work as a streamlined communication link between the players and MA. But it would only work if MA accepts this as official players representative.. So that is priority number uno to find out.

Interesting views from both sides. Keep 'em coming.

I would like to stress that threats are not what I had in mind, and like stated by others before, neither is blocking deposits.

The representitives are not out to hurt MA or the players, nor are they out for personal gain. Their mission would be to try and improve everybody's experience. They could act as unpaid consultants to MA, and come back with feedback for the players.

We just want MA to listen. The majority of the threads I read lately were either about bugs, greed on MA's side (or the perception there of), and the likes.

If we and MA want PE to survive, that needs to change. Lots of new players will just log in and start playing, but the smart ones (who usually also happen to have well-paid jobs and who can afford more than an initial deposit) will read up prior to starting, and perhaps reconsider. The issues raised are valid, and should be addressed, but they are bad for business. If there is closer collaboration between MA and representatives of the playerbase, we might be able to cut back greatly on that kind of stuff.

Witte said:

I think this could work as a streamlined communication link between the players and MA. But it would only work if MA accepts this as official players representative.. So that is priority number uno to find out.

Click to expand...

But even looking at these discussion it's quite obvious that there isnt such thing as general consensus among us. It might be quite hard to even ask MA how they would relate themselves to player union when we actually cant even say who all it would represent and how.

One interesting idea could be founding some kind of a "Entropia Community Process" that would collect ideas and opinions in a controlled way, organize votings and present them to MA.

ViagraFalls said:

Interesting views from both sides. Keep 'em coming.

I would like to stress that threats are not what I had in mind, and like stated by others before, neither is blocking deposits.

The representitives are not out to hurt MA or the players, nor are they out for personal gain. Their mission would be to try and improve everybody's experience. They could act as unpaid consultants to MA, and come back with feedback for the players.

We just want MA to listen. The majority of the threads I read lately were either about bugs, greed on MA's side (or the perception there of), and the likes.

If we and MA want PE to survive, that needs to change. Lots of new players will just log in and start playing, but the smart ones (who usually also happen to have well-paid jobs and who can afford more than an initial deposit) will read up prior to starting, and perhaps reconsider. The issues raised are valid, and should be addressed, but they are bad for business. If there is closer collaboration between MA and representatives of the playerbase, we might be able to cut back greatly on that kind of stuff.

Click to expand...

I guess we all know that some players already have better communication with MA than others in different ways. This could of course be an asset we could use. However it would need to be from players thats not only after personal gain, as you mentioned. Which it seems a few of the "close contacts" to MA is..

Great Idea!

i like this idea alot ...

why not have a pe (ingame) president/primeminister etc brush the dust of those old voting machines

but there will be complications but if we can get past them this would be a worthwhile idea

One thing to remember.. By the time we have installed a VU and logged on, the MA personell has already started working on the next one...
Right now they probably have planned what to do for at least the next 2 VUs and done quite a lot of the neccesary work on one of them.
If they where to change their plans on every request we make, there would be no continuancy and the game would never go where it was PLANNED to go (yeah, MA DO have plans)

BubbleBlip said:

But even looking at these discussion it's quite obvious that there isnt such thing as general consensus among us. It might be quite hard to even ask MA how they would relate themselves to player union when we actually cant even say who all it would represent and how.

One interesting idea could be founding some kind of a "Entropia Community Process" that would collect ideas and opinions in a controlled way, organize votings and present them to MA.

Click to expand...

But we can find that out when MA accepts this player union. And if we then cant figure out how it should work, the whole idea can still be dropped. What i mean to say, you can discuss it here for ages. But when MA wont cooperate, its still all useless imo.

Witte said:

But we can find that out when MA accepts this player union. And if we then cant figure out how it should work, the whole idea can still be dropped. What i mean to say, you can discuss it here for ages. But when MA wont cooperate, its still all useless imo.

Click to expand...

OR the MA contact could be given access to making the polls for the vote booth and MA could get them straight from there..
Guess that means a little extra coding tho, so maybe nothing MA would be interested in doing..

I wholeheartedly support the idea of such a union. There are too many problems with this game and those who voice their valid concerns are continuosly shouted down by the fanbois or ignored by MA. It needs to be understood that the voicing of these complaints is a sign, not that we hate PE but that we care passionately about this project and want it to be as good as we can see it has the potential to be.

the problem i see is that to force recognition of your union you would have to be able to threaten to withhold deposits from MA.

I see 2 problems with this.

1. The junkies won't be able to survive without depositing or will make sure they deposit enough prior to the strike that thir fix is not affected. MA drop the loot returns during the strike and these people will keep depositing more, it's the nature of addiction. No matter how many sensible people withold their money, there will be people chasing the dragon and MA can manipulate virtual environmentental factors to ensure that they fill the void left by other depositors.

2. MA will keep incurring costs during the period of the strike, while surviving on reduced revenue. If the strike drags on, financial damage to MA would cause suffering to those in the Entropian Universe. Read Germinal or a history of the many failed strikes of the 20th / 21st century to realise that such actions are not without peril.

Let's try to build a consensus between the players and MA where both sides communicate with each other to make PE a better and more dynamic world for all to enjoy both now and continuing into the future. The relationship between the avatars and MA is a symbiosis, neither can survive without the other and currently both sides spend too much time antagonising each other.

Winston

Witte said:

But we can find that out when MA accepts this player union. And if we then cant figure out how it should work, the whole idea can still be dropped. What i mean to say, you can discuss it here for ages. But when MA wont cooperate, its still all useless imo.

Click to expand...

I predict that MA wont say clear yes or no to something which hasnt anything definite yet. If we go and ask MA what they would think about "idea of players union" they can well say its "nice idea".

This is something that has been discussed already long time in forums and maybe best try would be to actually make something concrete, interact with MA, make changes and go back interacting with MA.

These all player founded forums were also found when some players just took initiative. They can never be the one and official forum but they do a lot of good and serve many purposes. I think players union should aim to same: not the be the one and official players union but an union of enough players to actually make the difference.

A good idea VF, but I'm not sure a union would work.

We have trouble getting any sort of feedback to be acknowledged by MA. They added the suggestion option to the support submission page on the website. The page clearly states that support cannot discuss EU dynamics and development, so why the heck is the suggestion box on the support page?

MA would have to create a forum to allow discussion between a player representation committee and them. they would need to assign someone the task of talking to us. The currrent MA community relations person only comes out to talk to us when we complain enough, writes a few lines to make everyone feel better and goes away again.

He (Marco) also recently stated that his role at MA is changing, not that we have been informed as to what that might be and if we will actually have a MA community relations person at the end of the day.

Better communication with MA has been a topic on this forum since I joined last November. Since November MA has made an attempt to improve communication by introducing the developers blog on the web site (still only one entry...), and adding a suggestion option on the support page, but it has not improved anything.

As long as MA are unwilling to dedicate resources to establish a real EU Community/MA Representative relationship, I fear that we will be left with discussing issues amongst ourselves in this forum.

I would support any initiative that improves communication with MA, and by doing so improves our Entropian Universe.

Cheers (+rep for VF )

Alexis Starfire said:

IMHO, that would be a somewhat extreme solution that would not help the players at all, Vig and Fade have stated this in another thread..We don't want to 'hurt' MA we just want them to listen to whos paying thier bills...

Cheers

Click to expand...

People, "hurting" MA is, ultimately, the ONLY surefire way they or any other organisation for that matter, will listen. Any other method can and probably will be ignored, just like it is, in some cases, now. OK, they might not choose to do anything and just pull the plug but hey, do you want it to get better or are you going to moan a bit but still play? Hard choices have to be made if you seriously want change.

MA is after all only a business, it is not in existence to please ANYBODY unless doing so will maintain or increase their profit. O.K., some, possibly most of the guys and girls working there are on our side and doing their damndest to make the "customer" happy but at the end of the day, the man/woman at the top is the one that calls the shots and you can bet your bottom PED, that they will be dollar-focused.

Said with a (the words in upper case are only to highlight not shouting).

Regards,

Jal

P.S. I for one, VF, will support the cause, not that I deposit alot or have much at stake.

P.S. You cannot change an organisation from inside the system, revolution is the only way "brothers" (which is the genderless expression, girls).

Jal said:

People, "hurting" MA is, ultimately, the ONLY surefire way they or any other organisation for that matter, will listen. Any other method can and probably will be ignored, just like it is, in some cases, now. OK, they might not choose to do anything and just pull the plug but hey, do you want it to get better or are you going to moan a bit but still play? Hard choices have to be made if you seriously want change.

MA is after all only a business, it is not in existence to please ANYBODY unless doing so will maintain or increase their profit. O.K., some, possibly most of the guys and girls working there are on our side and doing their damndest to make the "customer" happy but at the end of the day, the man/woman at the top is the one that calls the shots and you can bet your bottom PED, that they will be dollar-focused.

Said with a (the words in upper case are only to highlight not shouting).

Regards,

Jal

P.S. I for one, VF, will support the cause, not that I deposit alot or have much at stake.

P.S. You cannot change an organisation from inside the system, revolution is the only way "brothers" (which is the genderless expression, girls).

Click to expand...

You should REALLY read the links i posted further up this thread..
Hurting the company that feed you or entertain you is NOT always very good. Infact it can be very BAD..

I think it can be a good idea. I had an idea for some time ago, that they
could have a extra website, where those that had ideas and such, could log
in to. To be granted access to this new site, you have to apply for it.
Rules should be just as hard there as in COU, so there are no "F**k you all,
loot f**king s**ks, a**holes!" among the ideas...
I still think a site like this would be good for everyone (but hard to handle sadly)
but it can also be the way this group has their contact with MA.

Tigerman said:

One thing to remember.. By the time we have installed a VU and logged on, the MA personell has already started working on the next one...
Right now they probably have planned what to do for at least the next 2 VUs and done quite a lot of the neccesary work on one of them.
If they where to change their plans on every request we make, there would be no continuancy and the game would never go where it was PLANNED to go (yeah, MA DO have plans)

Click to expand...

Totaly agree with you here.
If we gonna have a group of people that gonna represent the players, they
must understand this. And the process of how long ideas take to implement.
F.ex, I know for sure an idea can take +11 months before it comes.
They should also understand why bugs aren't fixed in one day. If it was so easy
as some think (supportcase day one, why sin't it fixed day two? ) why has
the bug come at all? Well, some bugs are easy to fix, might be so easy that
it was just a wrong value within a setting, but, other bugs are like oil and water.
No matter how hard you try to fix it, mixture will never be perfect....

Tigerman said:

You should REALLY read the links i posted further up this thread..
Hurting the company that feed you or entertain you is NOT always very good. Infact it can be very BAD..

Click to expand...

I totally agree Tigerman, it has the potential to go pear-shaped.

The point I was making is that the ULTIMATE method to get a business to take any notice of "you", is to hit it where it hurts. In the pocket. It means tough choices on both sides of the customer/supplier fence. No pain, no gain.

Jal