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Effect of Lasers and Scopes. Are we all nuts?

falkao

falkao

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Marc falkao Falk
Many of us are using scopes and lasers but I always wondered what effect they have. Atm I can't find any benefit neither in dmg nor hit/miss rate. Well, you can zoom with scopes and lasers do look cool but is that the whole story?
Therefore I opened a support case and the answer is what I have expected.

Case 95498 History
15 Nov 2006 Falk:
Since I'm interested to know how things work I frequently collect data and do some statistical analysis. Regarding scopes and lasers I was always wondering what the skill modification means but I can't find any difference between using them or not using them, neither on damage nor on miss rate. Might it be that they do not have any benefit atm?

Kind regards
Falk

17 Nov 2006 MindArk Support:
Hello, unfortunately we can't comment on how specific systems work.
Regards,
Entropia support

So MA does not comment on things like that and they are free to do so. However, having items in game that are only crafted without any noticeable benefit looks strange to me. Why should I craft them when they have no benefit and why should I buy them with a markup if the only value they have is TT?

Nevertheless, there is one hypothesis left that I want to test. Maybe skill increase is higher in using them?

P.S. I normally don't post support cases here but for this one I'm interested in your feedback.
 
falkao said:
Maybe skill increase is higher in using them?
Click to expand...

it is what i believe
 
The skill increase boost theory could probably be tested by creating some ten fresh new orange noobs, equipping each of them with the same rifle (except for attachments) and sending them to hunt snablesnots young till they would die of boredom and reach 1k rifle (or any other amount, but this seems reachable) - and see the total costs to reach the mark.
Though I got a feeling MA would frown upon this.

edit - grammar trolling myself, gosh.
 
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falkao said:
Case 95498 History
15 Nov 2006 Falk:
(...)Regarding scopes and lasers I was always wondering what the skill modification means but I can't find any difference between using them or not using them, neither on damage nor on miss rate.
Click to expand...

I cannot find any difference either, because I'm sure that 90% of my misses are caused by lag and bugs.

falkao said:
So MA does not comment on things like that and they are free to do so.
Click to expand...

IMO, it is unacceptable that they do so. It is ok that they don't tell every single detail of the inner workings of the game, but there are some basic and fundamental aspects that should be crystal clear for everyone (effects of laser and scopes, armor decay and durability, the meaning of certain skills such as perception... just to name a few).

falkao said:
why should I buy them with a markup if the only value they have is TT?
Click to expand...

You're totally right. Definitely, I'm not going to pay hundreds of ped in markup for items if it is not 100% clear what they do, and if they're worth it.

/jdegre.
 
Caoryn said:
The skill increase boost theory could probably be tested by creating some ten fresh new orange noobs, equipping each of them with the same rifle (except for attachments) and sending them to hunt snablesnots young till they would die of boredom and reach 1k rifle (or any other amount, but this is seems reachable) - and see the total costs to reach the mark.
Though I got a feeling MA would frown upon this.
Click to expand...

That could be done with "real" freshly arriving newcomers.
Granted it would take some time to explain the purpose,
but a sponsored start to the world as hunter would even be a great entrance to the game.
It could also be done with the arrival as disciple, which should not be too much to ask for involving such a lot of sponsored ammunition.

Anyway for someone who BADLY wants to know for sure there will be ways to test it.
But probably all will involve the spending of some K peds.
 
Im am actually suprised that nobody ever tested this and made it public. Anyway, my guess is that they alter your HA. Its just odd you dont see it change when you add it to a gun.

About noticing it, that is nearly impossible. If it affects HA, it must be just marginal. You might get 1-2% more hits maybe. But overall that would be a pretty huge increase and very much worth the extra decay and markup, depending on the gun you attach it to.
 
This has been discussed a lot in the past. I'm pretty sure that Marco stated that they definitely do have an effect but of course he didn't say what and nobody has ever been able to work it out conclusively. The amount of missed shots due to lag makes it very hard to analyze whether they do affect HA.
 
Thinking about it logically, the only two reasons they could have for not saying are;

1. If they answer one of these queries, soon enough everyone will be demanding that they explain these types of things until the system is picked apart.
2. They know that the items have no, or extremely little, effect, and know that if we were ever to find out we would elimenate them from the game and go off out heads at them for blatantly lying to us. {remember, decay feeds MA, so a useless decaying item only serves to benefit them ;)}

And i definetly believe alot stronger in it being reason No.2.
 
Witte said:
Im am actually suprised that nobody ever tested this and made it public. Anyway, my guess is that they alter your HA. Its just odd you dont see it change when you add it to a gun.
Click to expand...

I collected data on hit/miss rate and dmg but I couldn't notice any significant difference. All p-Values are over 0.8.
So only Skill gain might be considered for further tests atm.

The scenario could be:
1) Note starting combat skills. Rifle, Laser, Handgun, Blp
2) Do a run without lasers, scopes. Take note on how often one of those skills is triggered. I guess about 50-100 events are needed to see a possibile difference if it exists.
3) After 100 events note combat skills again.
4) Repeat 2 and 3 now adding lasers and scope.
5) Repeat 2-4 starting with lasers and scope for the first 100 events and then without.
6) Compare median skill gain of both groups (with/without lasers/scope) using a the U-Test.

That's what I'm doing atm.
 
well, I used to hold 2 lasers + scope even on opalo back then when I used it a lot. one day I decided not to as the HA/CHA were maxed long time ago. now taking them off made a huge difference! I did not trace it exactly by collecting the data, but the miss ratio was way higher, believe me.

it seems like they just add up the % to your aim and that's the key to not missing the shots that often. as it had significant difference even with the maxed opalo, I'd rather suppose the losses with regular weapon would be pretty high due to more misses.

concerning skill boost I can not prove any differences to that theory however...



J.
 
falkao said:
I collected data on hit/miss rate and dmg but I couldn't notice any significant difference. All p-Values are over 0.8.
So only Skill gain might be considered for further tests atm.

The scenario could be:
1) Note starting combat skills. Rifle, Laser, Handgun, Blp
2) Do a run without lasers, scopes. Take note on how often one of those skills is triggered. I guess about 50-100 events are needed to see a possibile difference if it exists.
3) After 100 events note combat skills again.
4) Repeat 2 and 3 now adding lasers and scope.
5) Repeat 2-4 starting with lasers and scope for the first 100 events and then without.
6) Compare median skill gain of both groups (with/without lasers/scope) using a the U-Test.

That's what I'm doing atm.
Click to expand...

How did you test this exacely? How many shots for example? And did you use a (L) weapon (with maxed stats) or a regular weapon? And what was the total skillmod %? The difference can be realy small, like 1%. This might seem bad but is infact not bad at all. Its for example the same difference between a weapon with 4.00 eco or 4.04.

BTW the skillgain test is tricky. Skillgains are very variable, abit like loots. Plus there is the slowdown cycles in skillgains. So you will need to do allot of tests, say at least 10. If lets say at least 8 the tests show a favor for the attachments, then you can carfully start making an assumption.
 
falkao said:
The scenario could be:
1) Note starting combat skills. Rifle, Laser, Handgun, Blp
2) Do a run without lasers, scopes. Take note on how often one of those skills is triggered. I guess about 50-100 events are needed to see a possibile difference if it exists.
3) After 100 events note combat skills again.
4) Repeat 2 and 3 now adding lasers and scope.
5) Repeat 2-4 starting with lasers and scope for the first 100 events and then without.
6) Compare median skill gain of both groups (with/without lasers/scope) using a the U-Test.

That's what I'm doing atm.
Click to expand...

What do you consider events? Skillgains?
What's a U-test?

To further complicate things, I'd like to add that there also might be a difference between SIB and non-SIB (Skill Increase Bonus) weapons.

For a test, wouldn't it be easier to write down all relevant skills. Do several 100 ped ammo runs with and without scope and lasers and keep tracking skills after every hunt.
 
demoniac said:
...amount of missed shots due to lag makes it very hard to analyze whether they do affect HA.
Click to expand...

Indeed, effect of lag on miss rate is for sure a lot higher then a possible influence of scopes/lasers. Hence it might be better to eliminate this before :)
 
EyeContact said:
What do you consider events? Skillgains?
What's a U-test?
....
Click to expand...

Yep, with an event I mean a skillgain msg of one of the combat skills.

The U-test is the Mann-Whitney-U test, a staticial test to compare to independent groups where data is not normally distributed. Most things in EU do follow a uniform distribution.
 
falkao said:
Indeed, effect of lag on miss rate is for sure a lot higher then a possible influence of scopes/lasers. Hence it might be better to eliminate this before :)
Click to expand...


Easy way to eliminate this is to use melee. Count number of hits, and after the test calculate the supposed number of hit by the decay of the weapon. The difference is the number of misses caused by lag.
 
Witte said:
How did you test this exacely? How many shots for example? And did you use a (L) weapon (with maxed stats) or a regular weapon? And what was the total skillmod %? The difference can be realy small, like 1%. This might seem bad but is infact not bad at all. Its for example the same difference between a weapon with 4.00 eco or 4.04.
Click to expand...

The test weapon was an M71A1 so a non (L) weapon. Total skill mod% of laseres and scope was 40%. Therefore I did expect a difference in that region. Sample size was 500 shots per group so 1000 shots in total.



Witte said:
BTW the skillgain test is tricky. Skillgains are very variable, abit like loots. Plus there is the slowdown cycles in skillgains. So you will need to do allot of tests, say at least 10. If lets say at least 8 the tests show a favor for the attachments, then you can carfully start making an assumption.
Click to expand...

Thats the point and I'm not sure if I should go further on. To test something were a difference might be seen only after an enormous amount of attempts might be irrelevant for the every day Eu-Life. Guess lag has more influence.
 
Witte said:
Easy way to eliminate this is to use melee. Count number of hits, and after the test calculate the supposed number of hit by the decay of the weapon. The difference is the number of misses caused by lag.
Click to expand...

Good proposal.
 
jdegre said:
IMO, it is unacceptable that they do so. It is ok that they don't tell every single detail of the inner workings of the game, but there are some basic and fundamental aspects that should be crystal clear for everyone (effects of laser and scopes, armor decay and durability, the meaning of certain skills such as perception... just to name a few).
/jdegre.
Click to expand...

I agree, the effect of all skills and items should be open knowledge.
I don't care what it will do to the market, some skills will lose value others will gain.
 
Floor said:
I agree, the effect of all skills and items should be open knowledge.
I don't care what it will do to the market, some skills will lose value others will gain.
Click to expand...

The more is know about everything, the more the game will turn into a casino. The whole unknown element adds the extra dimension to it. If it becomes "when I use skill x+ item y, i will have a 30% chance to profit", the game element would totaly die. Finding out how things work, and by that gaining advantage over others, makes it much more fun IMO.
 
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hard to test this on a noobie account...

I used hanzor + 2x garguls 50%+ skill mod I 'feel' I miss less esp in pvp.

If tested on a noobie account with no skills to modify then its going to be almost unnoticable
 
Witte said:
The more is know about everything, the more the game will turn into a casino. ...
Click to expand...
Actually it seems the contrary to me.

Witte said:
The whole unknown element adds the extra dimension to it. If it becomes "when I use skill x+ item y, i will have a 30% chance to profit", the game element would totaly die. Finding out how things work, and by that gaining advantage over others, makes it much more fun IMO.
Click to expand...

For sure finding out how things work is one of the interesting aspects of Eu. However, when elementary things couldn't be verified I have some doubts on the rest.
 
jdegre said:
...
IMO, it is unacceptable that they do so. It is ok that they don't tell every single detail of the inner workings of the game, but there are some basic and fundamental aspects that should be crystal clear for everyone (effects of laser and scopes, armor decay and durability, the meaning of certain skills such as perception... just to name a few).

...
/jdegre.
Click to expand...


I second that :)
 
Witte said:
The more is know about everything, the more the game will turn into a casino. The whole unknown element adds the extra dimention to it. If it becomes "when I use skill x+ item y, i will have a 30% chance to profit", the game element would totaly die. Finding out how things work, and by that gaining advantage over others, makes it much more fun IMO.
Click to expand...

So you actually have no problem paying for stuff of which you don't know how they work or what they do? Remind me to never go shopping with you ;)

Store Clerk: 'Hi, and welcome to our magic shop of machines.'
Store Clerk: 'I got a nice machine that does amazing stuff for only $ 199.95'
Floor: 'What does it do?'
Store Clerk: 'We do not explain how our machines work, or what they do!'
Witte: 'Ok, sounds like fun. I'll take it.'
Floor: 'No thnx, cya!'
 
falkao said:
Actually it seems the contrary to me.
For sure finding out how things work is one of the interesting aspects of Eu. However, when elementary things couldn't be verified I have some doubts on the rest.
Click to expand...

What rest do you mean exactly? And when you cannot verify somthing easely, it doesnt mean that its not true. The difference can simply be so small its hard to notice. But since the decay of the attachments is so low, it can still benefit you.
 
Floor said:
So you actually have no problem paying for stuff of which you don't know how they work or what they do? Remind me to never go shopping with you ;)

Store Clerk: 'Hi, and welcome to our magic shop of machines.'
Store Clerk: 'I got a nice machine that does amazing stuff for only $ 199.95'
Floor: 'What does it do?'
Store Clerk: 'We do not explain how our machines work, or what they do!'
Witte: 'Ok, sounds like fun. I'll take it.'
Floor: 'No thnx, cya!'
Click to expand...

No I find out how it works first, after that I make up my mind whether I think its worth it. You cant make me believe that when you go shopping for a TV, you are going to check all the circuits and components used, to determine if its a good buy. The only thing you can rely on is other users experiences, and on the stats that are given by the manufacturer. But in many cases that wont tell you if the TV will have a good image quality in a year from now.
 
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Witte said:
What rest do you mean exactly?
Click to expand...

With the rest I mean how other things in EU work or do not work.

Witte said:
And when you cannot verify somthing easely, it doesnt mean that its not true. The difference can simply be so small its hard to notice. But since the decay of the attachments is so low, it can still benefit you.
Click to expand...

Well a died that reduces weight for 10g might be considered as one. However, the benfit from it might be discussed.
 
falkao said:
With the rest I mean how other things in EU work or do not work.
Click to expand...

Most things have been tested over and over, and show the same result every time. So I see no reason to doubt those.

Well a died that reduces weight for 10g might be considered as one. However, the benfit from it might be discussed.
Click to expand...


Its indeed unsure if these attachment will give us enough benefit to justify the cost. But like Floor already said, if you totaly dont know what an item does, its not too clever to buy and use it. So in that case, just stay away from them. Although the benefit of a scope seems very obvious.

Personally I seem to notice difference in using a sight or not. But I have no prove. Since the decay is so low, I dont care that much. If it doesnt benefit, it also wont harm too much. And the sight just look nice ;) (although the dot disapeared some time ago :()
 
Witte said:
The only thing you can rely on is other users experiences, and on the stats that are given by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

That's exactly the problem, in this case the manufacturer (MA) doesn't give stats.
 
Floor said:
That's exactly the problem, in this case the manufacturer (MA) doesn't give stats.
Click to expand...

They do, allot even. The only problem is that we dont always know how to interpetate those. In this case the stat is Skillmod. We know exactly how high this stat is, we only dont know what its for exactly

But that is exactly similar to real life. For example, most people think, that more watt in an amplifier means its louder and better. While in fact its all marketing bullox. There are 25Watt amplifiers that sound 2 times louder and better then 500Watt ones on the same speakerset. To know these facts you need to do research yourself, and often test it yourself.
 
In real life they don't make it impossible for you to find out either though.
 
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