Our perception of beauty

Our societys perception and definition of beauty today, at least what you see in magazines and on TV, commercials.. picture perfect 90% of the time.

http://www.fotopia.no/fullnews.asp?newsid=776
Scroll down under the article and watch the movie.

As the article says.. (it is in norwegian) "Faking it is in".

This brought up some questions for me..
What is a beautiful face to you? what does it mean to you, what impact does it have on your life?
And what do you think of todays society's common perception of what is beauty and what is not?

It is pityful what we go through, and I dont just mean women -men have selfesteem issues about it aswell, to be as perfect as, or nearly as perfect as, a unreal picture of what beauty should be like.

We ourself, the society, have caused this problem. How? What we want to see will appear. If it sells, more appear. So, how come we want to strive for something that isnt even natural to begin with?

Eating disorders. Most of you know people with eating disorders, but you might not know they have it. Or how about beautysurgery? (Im not saying all of these are bad, I know alot of people get help from it)
How come we made ourself a image which our mind and body get sick to strive for?

Oh, and happy valentines day

Wow you could break that post down to about 5 different topics.

But Ill endeaver to answer your first question....What is beauty to me.

First, beauty is not lust...lust is a hormonal reaction....at least for me it is

Beauty is more of a presence of innocence and goodness. To call someone beautiful for me is more than just looking at them, its talking to them and seeing actions over words as well.

Damn, im not doing a very good job here of my thoughts...

Beauty is captivating, pleasant to both the mind and spirit.

A car can be beautiful, but I dont believe thats the direction your looking at for a description.

And as always Beauty is truely in the eye of the beholder.

Regards,

Yeah, I saw that Dove advert a while ago.

A beautiful face to me is one that's smiling .. a real smile, not a fake camera effort.

A face where the person has a twinkle of love in his or her eyes is a beautiful one.

A face with dog shite on it is an ugly one

I partly agree with netstalker

I also believe that beauty is NOT only skin deep but how to put that accross in words is way beyond me.

They also (society?) say that beauty is in the beholder in which case if im the beholder what is beautifull to me may not necessarily be beautifull for everyone else.

That said who do you know that doesnt first of all interpret beauty (when seeing someone and thinking whether to try and talk to them etc) as ONLY skin deep thus trying to take the leap and talk to someone you feel beautifull?

Mmmm im even confusing myself

In short I think yes looks help but only in the way that initially would draw you to that person... if they look good but attitude stinks would you stick around (mm some may )

So to me beauty is the whole shabang not just looks! (but they help )

Rip

PS had said more but when i reread it, it was just nonsense

PPS what ulti said you can tell when a smile is true and theres no better feeling than knowing that the smile is due to something you have done and that that person appreciates it (yep talking shite again i know)

I believe that...

Looks of someone is extremely important. As a matter of fact, it is. I mean, comeon, how many of you have stepped up to that ugly guy or girl on the pub? Pretty much noone...

The looks of someone gives us the very first impression. Does this person care to much about herself? Is she taking care of herself? How's her health? Does she look bright? Is she easy affected of others? Does she play EU to much!? Is she responsible?

Alot of things is possible to judge by the looks of someone. The looks of someone has a bigger impact on people than they think it has. Since most relationships dont end up better than the first impression. Unless you really get close to that person and learn to know that he/she actually is different.

When it comes to stuff like anorexia and shit, thats just something people has in their mind. I strongly believe that it is caused by lack of attention. The persons who claim they got stuff like this, are most likely just looking for someone to care. It is much like beeing hypocondric in my eyes. They want you to see they suffer. They want you to care.
The reason of stuff like this, is most likely, something really else than you might think.

Well, at least that is my small experience and opinion.

Society blows. Inner beauty is what really counts. "No matter how good looking she is, somebody somewhere is sick of her BS".

RidingDirty said:

I believe that...

Looks of someone is extremely important. As a matter of fact, it is. I mean, comeon, how many of you have stepped up to that ugly guy or girl on the pub? Pretty much noone...

Click to expand...

Ever had too many beers?
There will always be someone who loves you no matter how you look like, pretty much no matter how you look like. There are so many so called fetishists out there that turn on completely different things then the socalled norm.

I have seen, and Im sorry to say this, butt ugly people guys ALOT more girls then the double as attractive buddies of them, simply because they have the oh-so-mystical-and-magnetical charm.

Have you ever noticed how the pretty girls often have extremely low selfesteem? Thats because they always think about how to look, how to act, how to be perfect. And, by this they loose the charm and spark that selfesteem and down to earth people have.

I know some not exactly picture-perfect guys who are so aware that they are not any Casanova that they acctually loosen up and allow themself to have fun on their own expence, be witty and entertain people. And I do think that prove that at times, and often in the long run in relationships, personality often wins over looks.

RidingDirty said:

When it comes to stuff like anorexia and shit, thats just something people has in their mind. I strongly believe that it is caused by lack of attention. The persons who claim they got stuff like this, are most likely just looking for someone to care. It is much like beeing hypocondric in my eyes. They want you to see they suffer. They want you to care.
The reason of stuff like this, is most likely, something really else than you might think.

Click to expand...

Say what?
Oh I dont even want to start with this!
Yes, it is in the mind I agree with that. BUT the mind neglects the bodys needs with these conditions. Its not hypocondria, thats something entirely different. They belive they are ill. People with eating disorders rarely admits they are and usually hides it. I suppose you have never noticed anyone around you have it..
They dont want you to care about it, they want to be pretty enough. Lack of attention? Perhaps.
You cannot say that psychological disorders are not proper illnesses or "hypocondria"! The brain usually have alot of chemical reactions that causes these illnesses, so what is wrong with the mind is also often something physically wrong with the brain.

Remember, the invisible illnesses are often the more serious ones.

Perhaps MS9 would have some imput on that?
But lets keep that "unde-topic" to eating disorders just to stay close to topic

Oh what a broad topic, and a daring one.

First of all, I'll ruin my own post by saying this: You can't explain what you define as beauty. What you can do, is try to let others understand. Saying to someone "you are beautifull" doesn't mean much actually, as long as the person doesn't know how you define the word. Just have a look at EF's own picture-thread... What do you see? A lot of people with different opinions about each other. And what is the result? People want to post pictures of themselves that apeal to as many as possible. And now we are back at the society-issue, because that is what happens today. Models are faked to such an extent that they apeal to almost everyone (usually of the oposite gender), and this trend rains down to us "mortals".

Ok, a bit of topic here, but I think I have a point somewhere coming. I can't define beauty from a picture. A picture is just one moment in time, and is nothing more than the ink/pixels you see. You can't see the person, you only see a fragment. Beauty for me is the total of many factors, some of which are the smile, how the muscles around the nose move, the laughter etc. And there are also factors involving the invicible chemistry between me and the person in question. I'd hesitate to use the word beautifull about a person that I feel is not honest to me, or is a bitch to others. Again, the total of factors.

Right now, in my head, the difference between "a beautiful face" and "a beautifull person" pops up. Might be the broadness of the topic raised, so not sure how to proparly write this.

I'll take one example: Season one of the new Dr. Who, staring Christopher Eccleston. By looking at this link, http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/31/45/22m.jpg, he doesn't look like much of a chap. Neither does he here http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0813715/NUP_104170_0116.jpg. But for those that has watched this show, will probably see that there is way much more to this person than what a single photography can show.

Blame the internets!

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Internet_disease

damn funny, especially the image guide on the right

Skam said:

Ever had too many beers?
There will always be someone who loves you no matter how you look like, pretty much no matter how you look like. There are so many so called fetishists out there that turn on completely different things then the socalled norm.

I have seen, and Im sorry to say this, butt ugly people guys ALOT more girls then the double as attractive buddies of them, simply because they have the oh-so-mystical-and-magnetical charm.

Have you ever noticed how the pretty girls often have extremely low selfesteem? Thats because they always think about how to look, how to act, how to be perfect. And, by this they loose the charm and spark that selfesteem and down to earth people have.

I know some not exactly picture-perfect guys who are so aware that they are not any Casanova that they acctually loosen up and allow themself to have fun on their own expence, be witty and entertain people. And I do think that prove that at times, and often in the long run in relationships, personality often wins over looks.

Click to expand...

Had to many beers, to often.... But if thats true, how come Im not surrounded by hot chicks?

On a serious part though, what your saying might fit in when it comes to girls. But for guys it is a different thing.
How do guys define a hot chick!? Well, give them a little booty, and some titties. That pretty much fits on all guys description of a hot girl. And for you girls, dont you think that that muscular guy is hotter than the other guy who walks with his head and shoulders down?
The definition of whats beautiful, or should we say attractive, is all biologic. It is all about "survival of the fittest". Ever since man started to walk on this planet, the males wanted a female who had "some", since for some reason theese experience easier births, and also are able to give birth to more children. They also have some witch the body can eat, in case of a sudden famine.
The girls wanted a man who could take care of the family, protect it and go out hunt for the food.

Though, the definition of someone who we would like to live our lives with, is a whole other thing. We have grown into a stage where our minds are more important than ever. I mean, who really needs that super-give-birth-body when there is hospitals? Who needs that man who takes down a lion with his fists when all he is supposed to do is go to work and carry home some money? No one really, but scientific studies has shown that theese are the reasons why most girls and guys share the same taste.

About fetishes, that is actually a thing that also takes place in the head. Every 20th person suffers of some kind of sexual twist, may it bee he's homo, nekro, like children or that he likes to get straped up and penetrated by feet.

Say what?
Oh I dont even want to start with this!
Yes, it is in the mind I agree with that. BUT the mind neglects the bodys needs with these conditions. Its not hypocondria, thats something entirely different. They belive they are ill. People with eating disorders rarely admits they are and usually hides it. I suppose you have never noticed anyone around you have it..
They dont want you to care about it, they want to be pretty enough. Lack of attention? Perhaps.
You cannot say that psychological disorders are not proper illnesses or "hypocondria"! The brain usually have alot of chemical reactions that causes these illnesses, so what is wrong with the mind is also often something physically wrong with the brain.
Perhaps MS9 would have some imput on that?
But lets keep that "unde-topic" to eating disorders just to stay close to topic

Click to expand...

Well, Ive read alot about it, had a small period myself and been talking alot with that kind of people. Yes, of course you it is illness, and so is hypocondria, all kind of illnesses has one thing in comment: Something went wrong and now the mind and body has to suffer. May it bee due to psycological or physical reasons.

Well, for some reason it feels like i got a million spelling errors in this post...

Oooo ... Oooo ... Oooo ... this is right up my alley and a topic I would LOVE to contribute to as a civilian EF'er when I get back from teaching my evening class. The topic tonight is "Psychological/Behavioral Disorders and Therapies" ... go figure ... timing is everything, BUT ...

I will leave you with a quote I use quite frequently ...


Be prepared to be schooled ... I'm qualified, so don't give me any crap about it, OK?

Catch ya later, but in the meantime, Skam made some very valid points with her initial post and I'll address them, but will also address some interesting things that others have posted as well.

Have fun till I get back!

*Thanks for the heads up on this one Skammie!*

Wow.... "What is beauty"

Well, it's entirely subjective...

A snap glance at somebody might make you think they're beautiful - superficially. Personally I cant stand those fake "I spend all my time trying to look perfect" types, cos in general the only person they have time for is the one in the mirror, and to me that makes them ugly

Somebody with beautiful looks is not a model, but also isn't an ugly person, just somebody who is good-ish looking, and content with themselves

I agree tho, a smile is far more attractive than a blank expression, or a sad face

But somebody I would want to spend time with, would need to be beautiful on the inside: Funny, intelligent, giving, genuine, and accepting of faults - their own and others

Thats real beauty

MindStar9 said:

Oooo ... Oooo ... Oooo ... this is right up my alley and a topic I would LOVE to contribute to as a civilian EF'er when I get back from teaching my evening class. The topic tonight is "Psychological/Behavioral Disorders and Therapies" ... go figure ... timing is everything, BUT ...

I will leave you with a quote I use quite frequently ...

It's the artistic beauty from within
that determines the masterpiece of the canvas!​

Be prepared to be schooled ... I'm qualified, so don't give me any crap about it, OK?

Catch ya later, but in the meantime, Skam made some very valid points with her initial post and I'll address them, but will also address some interesting things that others have posted as well.

Have fun till I get back!

*Thanks for the heads up on this one Skammie!*

Click to expand...

Cant wait to read your civilian-post

Though, you aint gonna start picking on me now when you dont have to be nice anymore, right?

What a huge blooming subject. And there are so many avenues to tackle with this one.... but in a nutshell...

Beauty is from within.

I have seen the stereotypical "beautiful" person in the street here in the UK and have thought they are beautiful.

I have also seen a 25 Stone Lady in a small village near Tashinga, Zimababwe, with the most beautiful African smile in the world, and it lit her up, making her one of the most beautiful and genuine human being you would ever be lucky enough to meet.

There is a shallow exterior that today's media exploits, but true beauty lies within.

“Beauty is no quality in things themselves: it exists merely in the mind which contemplates them.” - David Hume

This is a tough subject really... Beauty and the way we perceive it are influenced by at least 2 factors: the instincts (our little brain in the back of our heads) and culture.
Usually we are attracted by harmonious shapes and symmetry (symmetrical physical characteristics). Symmetry and harmony are a result of health and a good genetic heritage. This would be the part of how instincts affect it.
Of course, we are also influenced by our memories regarding a certain person for which we once had a great deal of affection and that person's features would be looked for in other people.
Another factor is culture and education. Here things tend to get more complicated as we are dealing with our main brain, with the abstract, with concepts, etc.
Other people affect our perception of beauty. Weird enough, it seems that beauty isn’t all in the eye of the beholder after all. Researchers have shown women rate a man as more attractive after they’ve seen another woman smiling at him. By contrast, being a jealous bunch, male observers rate a man as less attractive after they’ve seen a woman smiling at him.
Anyway, I would love to say more here but I gotta go

I left everyone with a quote before I took off to teach my class, and while I intend to make a major contribution to this thread, I'll have to do it on Thursday. However, in reading through the posts in this thread so far, I came across two quotes that stood out and rather impressed me ...

[Shadow-Ale] I can't define beauty from a picture. A picture is just one moment in time, and is nothing more than the ink/pixels you see. You can't see the person, you only see a fragment.

Click to expand...

Shadow-Ale also made a very valid point about the "Show Us Ya Face" thread. I've watched that thread for a very long time, and it's quite revealing given the topic being covered here. We place such importance on the external package, but fail to keep in mind that skin deep beauty changes over time ... it's inevitable. Also, far too often, external beauty is motivation for entering into relationships because there's a physical chemistry attached to it as well, but then, just as many relationships fail because the truly important dynamics of a successful relationship are basically neglected.

This is more prevalent with younger generations though, because as we get older and more mature (hopefully), we wisen up and realize that it's not the frosting on the cake that makes it delicious, but rather all the crucial ingredients that build the foundation for adding the sweetness.

The other quote that I found quite interesting and impressive, given that it comes from someone I'm generally butting heads with, was ...

[FireW0lf] Well, it's entirely subjective... But somebody I would want to spend time with, would need to be beautiful on the inside: Funny, intelligent, giving, genuine, and accepting of faults - their own and others - Thats real beauty

Click to expand...

I'm actually impressed with your depth my dear ... the qualities you mentioned are exactly some of those that I myself look for, amongst others, but first and foremost for me is a kick-ass sense of humor, and of course intelligence. I'm turned on by intellectual sparring, and someone who doesn't bully, but can hold their own. A man can tell me I have a pretty face, but when he tells me my brain is beautiful, it's ON ... no, not in that way silly ... not at first anyway!

Beauty really is subjective, and as a few have mentioned already, what is beautiful to one isn't necessarily beautiful to another. If you can't get past the canvas to explore the qualities that truly do promote successful relationships, then you're either in a phase of development where you're sowing your wild oats and not ready for a serious relationship, or you really do have shallow thinking. If the latter, then it is almost guaranteed that you will experience an infiinite loop of failed relationships because they're based on superficial dynamics.

However, it doesn't mean that you can't have it all ... there are pretty faces who come with the complete package, but don't lock yourself into this specific criteria only, because you could be missing out on something very special.

I'll be back on Thursday to address some other things in this thread that I found rather interesting to say the least.

And RidingDirty? ... fasten your seatbelt Honey!



***

MindStar9 said:

The other quote that I found quite interesting and impressive, given that it comes from someone I'm generally butting heads with, was ...

FireW0lf said:

Well, it's entirely subjective... But somebody I would want to spend time with, would need to be beautiful on the inside: Funny, intelligent, giving, genuine, and accepting of faults - their own and others - Thats real beauty

Click to expand...

I'm actually impressed with your depth my dear ... ***

Click to expand...

Heheh I like to surprise people... Most people in here think I'm an argumentative prick who just hasta be right all the time, but hey - this is just a forum. Why would I show my real self here?

Yes

A lot of questions asked in this post.

A quick question myself(retorical)

Question:: How many ugly or overweight avatars are there in the Entropian Universe?
Answer::Hardly any fat of ugly avatars in the Entropian Universe at all.
Why?

The truth is we are geneticaly pre programed to be attracted to good looking people as many of you will know its all about the reproduction and survival of the human race,its built into are subconcious mind.

We subconsiously want to give our own genes and dna the best chance of reproducing so its in are vested interests to find a healthy and physically fit mate,good looks and someone who is beautiful could be a strong indicator of healthy attributes therfore increasing our chance of reproduction and the continuation of our genes and dna

After all reproduction is the most powerful instinct we have,we can not escape it.We are all slaves to our genes whether we like it or not and there is no getting away from it,there is nothing more powerful or potent than sexual attraction to a beautiful person.

So many points to cover here maybe i will post again soon

And here is a nice addition to this dove movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uKQGAwPcI

Eol said:

And here is a nice addition to this dove movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uKQGAwPcI

Click to expand...

great stuff

Eol said:

And here is a nice addition to this dove movie:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-uKQGAwPcI

Click to expand...

LMFAO at that dude

Total class

swazer said:

Yes

A lot of questions asked in this post.

A quick question myself(retorical)

Question:: How many ugly or overweight avatars are there in the Entropian Universe?
Answer::Hardly any fat of ugly avatars in the Entropian Universe at all.
Why?

The truth is we are geneticaly pre programed to be attracted to good looking people as many of you will know its all about the reproduction and survival of the human race,its built into are subconcious mind.

We subconsiously want to give our own genes and dna the best chance of reproducing so its in are vested interests to find a healthy and physically fit mate,good looks and someone who is beautiful could be a strong indicator of healthy attributes therfore increasing our chance of reproduction and the continuation of our genes and dna

After all reproduction is the most powerful instinct we have,we can not escape it.We are all slaves to our genes whether we like it or not and there is no getting away from it,there is nothing more powerful or potent than sexual attraction to a beautiful person.

So many points to cover here maybe i will post again soon

Click to expand...

I totally agree with your post. However, there are certain exceptions to this "genetic predetermined" law that you are talking about.
For example, there are the people with a fetish (I am unsure if I mention this word correctly here) for ugly people. This probably as a result of how much culture affects us in the long run, generation after generation. Culture puts a bigger distance between us and instincts and perhaps this is why you cant say anymore that we are the slaves of our own species, like Shopenhauer used to say. Humans also observe and rate using comparison. When the stakes are too high, its hard too keep up to the latest standards, the cultural sense of beauty becomes, in time, a far away unreal utopia, something almost impossible to achieve.
I think that saying that we are the slaves of our genes its a bit overreacting. Its like saying that the sheep is a slave for life just because it is a sheep and nothing else, but we are what we are, that doesnt make us slaves.
The abstract concept of freedom becomes problematic. If, assuming that we are slaves indeed, then no any other creature or entity would be able to have any freedom at all for the simple reason that they cannot escape what they are. Not even God. This is how the faimous paradox -If God is omnipotent then God should be able to create a stone so heavy that he couldnt lift himself - started.
Looking forward to some other posts here that will inspire me write more. I like the thread

According to science, uglyness is just a lack/ bad symmetry and proportion.

Physically, shape and size perfection has a number. It is based on the golden ratio and golden proportion.

Here's an example of some study about the Golden Proportion.

The perfect human being, the ultimate beauty holder, would need to have the exact relation of proportions among all points and joints in his body. By analising some of the most beautiful people on the planet using a special tool seen above, scientists conclude that all of them follow the golden proportion. The distance between eye to nose, nose to mouth, tip of lip to cheek, etc...

There is even a "mesh" someone created with these proportions, and when "layered" on top of a face picture to a beautiful person, the features of the person would overlap in the right spots.

But spiritually, in terms of mind / essence of a being, beauty is completely subjective, defined by our common sense and global consciousness.

Since we are taught to be polite, sensitive, respecting... to us, these qualities make someone beautiful on the inside. If we go out on the street and hit someone with a bat, its not a beautiful feature is it?

Morality, Ethics, Values... These are the "proportions" of the inner person.

Finally, they say beauty is on the eye of the beholder. May be.

Yet i think Sublimity is on the eye of the beholder. Not beauty. Beauty, physically speaking is something that obeys a mathematical formula.

And most people confuse Sublimity with Beauty.

To give an example:

Someone decides to do an abstract painting, that consists in totally random spots and lines. (RANDOM)

Then someone goes and watches that painting. He feels something while watching it. An attraction of some kind. He says: ahhh, beautiful.

Incorrect..

Its not beautiful, its sublime The feeling he gets might be as "warm" and when seeing something beautiful, yet the correct terminology would be sublime.

There are lots of factors that determine the line between both, and some things are both beautiful and sublime.

The Kandinsky paintings for example:

He was a master of abstract painting, yet he didnt put the forms and colors randomly. He would use his proportional sense to determine what forms and what balance between them should exist.

I studied one of his paintings while in University for a class about visual perception. I remember that i concluded that among that chaos, there is order, both in shapes and colors.

A true artist, with both beautiful and sublime art.

Skam said:

Our societys perception and definition of beauty today, at least what you see in magazines and on TV, commercials.. picture perfect 90% of the time.

http://www.fotopia.no/fullnews.asp?newsid=776
Scroll down under the article and watch the movie.

As the article says.. (it is in norwegian) "Faking it is in".

This brought up some questions for me..
What is a beautiful face to you? what does it mean to you, what impact does it have on your life?
And what do you think of todays society's common perception of what is beauty and what is not?

It is pityful what we go through, and I dont just mean women -men have selfesteem issues about it aswell, to be as perfect as, or nearly as perfect as, a unreal picture of what beauty should be like.

We ourself, the society, have caused this problem. How? What we want to see will appear. If it sells, more appear. So, how come we want to strive for something that isnt even natural to begin with?

Eating disorders. Most of you know people with eating disorders, but you might not know they have it. Or how about beautysurgery? (Im not saying all of these are bad, I know alot of people get help from it)
How come we made ourself a image which our mind and body get sick to strive for?

Oh, and happy valentines day

Click to expand...

Interesting change to the "MA bashing" and "where can I find a good spawn of armax young" threads.

A girl with a beautiful face doesn't mean much to me, there is always someone else more prettier out there than they are.. so what's the big deal?

The whole self improvement thing I don't have a problem with either.. why not get your hair styled, work out, wear nice clothes, use make-up, have plastic surgery, use a sun-bed. Who cares, as long as it makes you feel better, and at the end of the day that's all that really matters, that you feel better about yourself and it makes you happier.

Society doesn't force you "self improve", it's your own choice.. an example: if you're a salesman, go to work in bermuda shorts, T-shirt, unshaved and stinking of BO.. you won't sell much. Wear smart clothes, fresh, clean cut image.. and say exactly the same things.. and you will sell more. Society responds to you in a more positive light.

- VV

Who do you believe more? Someone with rotten teeth, or someone with a colgate smile?

Even if the first is an angel and the second a criminal?

Obvious.

Aaaah science....

I was waiting for someone to bring up the mathematical golden-ratio rule.
The exeptional number 1,618... The golden ratio, also known as the divine proportions.
Yes this has indeed been scientifically proven. Not only in humans but everywhere in nature. My teacher once told me why the creditcards have the length they have. It is according to the mathematical number. Its called the "golden rectangle".

A documentary a while back used a famous beauty to prove the fact of symmetry and golden ratio. I think it was Liz Hurley? Anyway, they showed her face on a grid, and yes indeed -she was picture perfect according to nature, and science.
The grid in fact, isnt new.
Leonardo Da Vinci, one of the big names associated with the golden ratio, made a scetch explaining how he thought a human face's length should be to be picture perfect beautiful according to nature.

[br]Click to enlarge[/br]

Vince Vaughn said:

The whole self improvement thing I don't have a problem with either.. why not get your hair styled, work out, wear nice clothes, use make-up, have plastic surgery, use a sun-bed. Who cares, as long as it makes you feel better, and at the end of the day that's all that really matters, that you feel better about yourself and it makes you happier.

Society doesn't force you "self improve", it's your own choice.. an example: if you're a salesman, go to work in bermuda shorts, T-shirt, unshaved and stinking of BO.. you won't sell much. Wear smart clothes, fresh, clean cut image.. and say exactly the same things.. and you will sell more. Society responds to you in a more positive light.

- VV

Click to expand...

Indeed you will sell more. And indeed society doesnt physically force you to self-improve, yet it judges you if you do not meet the standars. The example you just gave is acctually a prime example to just that!

And yes, as long as it makes you feel better I agree. Self-improvement is great, and beeing a healthy person and living a healthy life is one of the best treats you can give yourself. However, if you do this for someone else then yourself? Alot of people do. Havent you noticed how many beautiful people who have extremely low selfesteem? Even if they are popular. They strive, but never become good enough.

Jorael said:

Who do you believe more? Someone with rotten teeth, or someone with a colgate smile?

Even if the first is an angel and the second a criminal?

Obvious.

Click to expand...

Hehe this reminds me of that riddle..
In a town there are two dentists. One of them has a shiny colgate smile, one of them has rotten teeth? Which would you go to?

Jorael said:

According to science, uglyness is just a lack/ bad symmetry and proportion.

Physically, shape and size perfection has a number. It is based on the golden ratio and golden proportion.

Click to expand...

I think science do not define ugliness. There are experiences what seems to be ugly for avg ppl and this is what you mentioned: lack/ bad symmetry and proportion.
But it is just taking average of personal feelings - very risky method.

There's an old saying in my country that goes:

"He who ugly loves, beautiful to him it looks".

Meaning that the flaws that science considers ugly, are considered beautiful by the person in love.

This theme is quite the debate kind, that involves science, philosophy and psychology. Each of them has a way to see beauty, and beauty itself has many shades of grey that can be discussed.

While i tend to see the world with the eyes of a designer (proportions, sizes, shapes, etc), i do not disdain the importance of the philosofical and psychologic inputs about beauty.

Skam said:

My teacher once told me why the creditcards have the length they have. It is according to the mathematical number. Its called the "golden rectangle

Click to expand...

I prefer "the golden triangle" rly