FYI: Mindark: Not the Enemy, not your friend either.

[Redfrog]

It's telling the world what is already in your sig methinks.

 

[langsuyar]

The more I read these posts the more I start to wonder if this really even happened.

And the more I read stuff like this, the more I believe that there actually are some really wired business within EU! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond my understanding!

 

[Gluepot]

I saw a post on the first page about "why was the text on MSN? keep it off of MA logs?" - good point. If I am doing a trade with somebody, I make sure that all the chat is left in the chat box, and if I am lending something, I get a screenshot of them agreeing to return it.
I honestly would have told the guy "Ok.... So deposit $8k, grab the imp fap, and we'll do business" - the other guy wanted to sell anyways...

 

[Zeke Sirrus]

I reckon what I'm about to say won't be popular but I'm finding it difficult to feel sorry for the friend.

Don't get me wrong i definately DO NOT CONDONE such behaviour however the trade system is designed in such a way as to allow the safe RCE mindark is promoting. If you choose not to follow the safe route of doing a trade then it is your loss if it goes t*ts up. The fact that the friend made a support case stating his intentions to do an unsafe trade doesn't not mean that he is entitled to any extra protection, especially and forgive me if I'm wrong if MA did not reply to his case stating there would be.

This is yet another case that reinforces the point 'TRADE SAFE OR DON'T TRADE AT ALL'. In game as well as life there are people out to get your money without working for it, X seems to pulled one hell of a confidence trick on the friend. I can understand the friends eagerness to get hold of the new toy but that shouldn't mean he ignores what is by now very common sense.

All said and rant over I truly hope that the friend followed the gambling rule 'Dont bet what you can't afford to lose' and is only p*ssed off and not down and out.

 

[burnsey]

What can one say. I think this highlights the fact that RCE universes (especially ones of EU's magnitude) should not exist unless proper governance is established.

It's important that thieves (and that is what they are) at least have a chance of being caught. Thus far, they can get away with it with absolutely no fear of the law catching up with them.

It's wrong to steal, but in the context in which MA set us, it's actually not against any 'law' at all.

People trade property worth tens of thousands all the time, yet have no protection whatsoever. I think it's about time that changed. I also think it's about time MA took some more responsibility.

Thefts of thousands of dollars cannot and must not go unpunished - what's that telling the world otherwise?

Entropia Universe, Come in and find yourself a sucker! Big rewards, little risk!

 

[Ozi]

you have the guys phone number, use reverse search to get more details and start watching the latest season of The Sopranos

 

[Coachman]

If he knows the name and the phone number, Baltic Inkasso has been known to fix this kind of situations.

 

[Thantos]

I'm a little concerned that the OP hasn't replied to our questions for about 4 hours now. What was the response from MA when Hop sent in the original support request? Did MA promise or even elude to keeping his peds safe? Or is this another "the sky is falling" post?

 

[jjmatrix]

...Telling MA in advance doesn't really change it. By their own rules they can't really do much. Its a P2P trade and all trades are final...

You nailed it Jimmy; they made their own rules... not to care about scams? That's really something; how come they investigated a thousand of other scams? Put people withdrawals on hold for a while? Lock accounts (including Star's)? All until they have finished their investigation; I didn't see any of the "all trades are final" bs.
I have no idea who's right or wrong here, but at least investigate; I'm going a little tired of MA; I hate being a hater too: I strongly believe has done a decent job in many cases... however, not here.

...In fact , MA can not know what kind of deal exist between player IRL ...
Maybe X did sell his car to Y
And if MA give back the ped to X then , its UY who got scamed...
Ma have no clue what you do IRL ... its to you ...

Sad , but rules are simple and know of evry player , and specially old...

And yes , maybe one day i will get scamed from something , and that day i will cry...But we have to assume hour action...

Except if if you're Jeff.

1. There was no chat log of this? I mean they didn't agree ingame about it? I can see why MA don't take heed to msn chat logs, but I'm interested in what was said ingame, where MA can see for themselves what was said.

2. You're going to MA with this? I don't know what country your friend lives in, but for the love of god go to the police. This is internet fraud. Swedish law for example is rather strict when it comes to the internet - you're responsible for everything you do and write (if I say "I'll f'ing kill you" to someone in a PM here, that's just as much a death-threat as if I went up to them and said it IRL - at least, that's the theory.)

About Mindark? Well their answer is expected. They've held to that policy for years. Has he tried by-passing the text support?

See the answer to Etopia.

 

[alricbezel]

I'm very sorry to hear that this person lost 8K US, that's a terrible thing. Although a situation that I ran into is slightly different I wrote to MA support to see if there was anything they could do about it. My situation was that I lent a full set of (F) ghost w/ shogun foot to a disciple, when the disciple graduated from me I no longer heard from this person and had no response in PM or email about getting the armor back. After a short series of support emails this was MA's final response:

03 Sep 2008 Entropia Support:
Hi,

"We are very sorry to hear about your experience. However, if or when a participant loses money or items due to a scam, these items/PEDs are lost and cannot be retrieved. This is because we are unable to evaluate exactly what has happened as our log files do not indicate any illegal activities. The transaction is registered as a normal trade and therefore does not reveal any irregularities.

It is important to remember that if you give your items to other avatars, there is no guarantee that you will get them back, even if your trade partner has made such a promise. If you accept such an agreement, you run the risk of losing your items. Even though the Entropia Universe is a virtual universe, there is real value involved in each and every trade and you must use your own judgement as if this was a real life agreement.

Since items in the Entropia Universe have a real value you should be able to file an official police report about lost items due to a scam. If the local police should contact us, we will cooperate with them and submit all available logs we have."


I had to learn my lesson the hard way and I believe that I am far from the first and far from the last that will suffer in this way. I just had to accept it as a loss and move on.

 

[Nobleone]

If what the OP says is all fact and truth then I feel sorry for Hopkirk, although for a 'so called' experienced player to do a trade like that shows complete stupidity to me....

On the other hand my suspicious mind can see another explanation... What if Hopkirk and the mysterious X are both in on the scam to scam MA for US$8k?

Let me explain... H & X set up the so called fap deal with just enough MA chat logs to show it was gonna happen, then they change over to MSN and telephone so nothing can be proven, H adds more credibility to the future trade by informing MA that it's gonna happen, H gives X the 8k and X converts it to real cash via whatever means...

Now H says to MA look I told ya I was gonna get scammed so you gotta give me back my 8k, MA tries to use the 'all trades are final' rule but eventually gives in due to pressure from the EF / EU community and to avoid bad press.

H has his original 8K back, X & H split the now syphoned off real life cash netting 4k each...

Maybe just my active imagination, but anything is possible...

Cheers, Nobleone

 

[Danoclese]

The story in short:
A friend and socmate of mine, Hopkirk, was approached by a player (we will call him X, his name may be found on other forums) who also has been a member of a top 10 soc. This player said he had an Imp Fap in the bank that he wanted to sell. Hopkirk and X agreed to a deal, the negotiations of which took place over a period of time.

Because X has a somewhat checkered past, Hopkirk alerted MA support that he was about to enter a deal with this person. He specifically told them that he would call upon them if the deal went sour.

Now the catch in the deal was that X didn't have the 80K peds that were supposedly required to retrieve the Fap from the bank, so X convinced Hopkirk to give this money as a first installment. This final phase of the scam took place while Hopkirk and X were in an MSN session as well as live on the phone with each other. Hopkirk felt pretty secure having some RL contact data of this person.

So Hopkirk handed over the 80K peds. After which the phone was hung up, the MSN closed and X logged off.
And Hopkirk knew he'd been had. A classic scam. But here's the twist to the story. Hopkirk is no noob. He had the presence of mind to warn MA Support in advance. He thought he had at least this base covered.

And now MA comes back with the default "All trades are final." reply.

Player X has been locked before, for scamming allegations. Hopkirk has been expertly given a false sense of security, but nevertheless had enough wits to try and buy some insurance in the form of MA Support. He's been politely told to p*ss off by them, after the fact.

Now all recriminations towards Hopkirk may be in order and correct - he should have known better, "All trades are final." etc, etc. - but none of it takes anything away from the purposefully criminal behavior by X. He is well-known to MA. And they will not lift a finger to help Hopkirk. They will not lock X.

Hopkirk is now trying several other ways to retrieve what is rightfully his. Mindark are being as unhelpful as they possibly can. They are more fickle than Greek gods. Sometimes they lock everyone even remotely suspected of having touched teinted money or items, and now they have the clearest case ever, and they're not even at the office.

I'm interested in what the community thinks of this.

Oh, COME ON !!!! That's just RIDICULOUS!!! Why the HELL would ANYONE in their right mind, enter into a deal as large as this with a known scammer?? Sorry, but no pity here...and he got what he deserved...his greed overcame his common sense...thus, he got burned...is it any suprise?? MA is NOT responsible here and there is no reason they should be brought into the situation. Hopkirk entered into a transaction with both eyes open. So, as is the MA credo....All trades are final. Your friend was playing with fire...he got burned....another moth to the flame....


I'm sorry, but, that's just how I feel...

caveat emptor

Unfortunately, MA "caved" in and replaced the "ahem" "lost" PEDs but, you know what? This is setting a VERY dangerous precedent. I can see it now..."Oh, MA!! I was scammed on my 5k worth of sweat and now I want my money back!!! Boo-Hoo".

and when the HELL will that stop?

and, really....that is just plain STUPID.

 

[Dab]

C'mon people...

Thefts of thousands of dollars cannot and must not go unpunished - what's that telling the world otherwise?

How do you or MA know that it was a theft and not 2 players trying to steal 8K from MA? No one knows for sure and there is no way to prove any ddifferent. Chat logs prove nothing. MSN logs prove nothing. A conversation without non-biased witnesses proves nothing.

This will be the same response you get from police (after they have a good chuckle about you bringing it to them in the first place.) It would probably cost the police a lot more than 8K dollars to investigate this if it crosses international borders anyway. Kind of like people saying they were going to report Richard Devil to the police. Pure fantasy.....First question they would ask - Can I see the written contract you had that shows the legally binding agreement you made with the alleged perpetrator?

Chat logs prove nothing and may serve to implicate them both in a fraud attempt if one were to turn on the other and say that fraud was the objective. If someone would steal 8K from you I'm sure they would have no problem telling the police that they were in it together and that it was all an attempt to defraud MA.

In fact if this goes too far both players might be banned for the bad publicity clause in the EULA.

Noggin is right in saying that MA has totally dropped the ball on the trading system. 6 years....

But, if someone who has played for a long time (and evidently has more money than sense) won't listen to a million warnings then what should MA do? If they move the 8K back into Hopkirk's account and player X sues them for it (Hop cannot prove that he didn't receive payment outside of game) then gee I guess the loot pool gets to pay some legal expenses and MA gets lots of bad publicity. Both players end up locked and cashed out making the thief a happy camper; (but probably saving the victim from making anymore bonehead moves like this)

Their response is correct. Why should anyone be outraged.

Pity should be directed at the stupid person who gave 8K to a known thief and then allowed their friend to whine about it here. Nice going!

And trying to hunt this person down in real life is also; how shall I put it? Fantasy?

Probably need to lock this before any death threats are made eh?

Some people just can't see the logic in MA's (and the justice system's) response, I can only hope it is the language barrier and not their naivety.

:splashes cold water in the face of all the people who say MA should do something about this:

P.S. The deal about contacting MA ahead of time makes it look even more like the two were trying to scam MA.

After all said above I do believe that this happened as it was told, some people are just that dumb.

I'd like to nominate this incedent to be the first entry in the EU Darwin Awards.

 

[Thorn]

Why him not me - well - I was scammed for 60,000 - I would support anyone who has been scammed by professional scammers... they should not be allowed to play here.........

A scam is not really very difficult to put right by MA - they just fix it - they can stop withdrawals - they can halt an account - track it all - and so they should - if they wanna convince people to add money to the game - because if they don't - your throwing money into a system that no insurance & that puts anyone with money off - eBay has insurance - pay pal has insurance ---

All deals are not final - if one person is deliberately deceiving another to simple scam and profit - there is a difference between a Normal trade and a trade that is meant to scam another person.

So stick your all trades are final up your arse - as that just what the scammer wants to hear- laughs in our faces........

I wonder is the person was a member of the soc that the member was in, that, I was scammed off by 60,000......... Guess what they all said - all deals are final - Bunch of low down twats...

MoonFish

No Moonfish it was not anyone in
MANN MPH KILLERS

None of us have anything of the sort. And as far as I know you were renting a hanger to own and missed payments. 60k would have been full price. I regret your deal went bad but I had nothing to do with it and know you no more than the other party involved in your deal to be quite honest. I can`t say there is a single person in MMK that has`nt been booted that I see any sort of behavior from and if we did it would`nt be tolerated for a split second. I can`t sit by and see a great group of people implicated for a deal between 2 people. I hope you understand. Other than that I fully agree with your post.

On that note MA should immediately ban all scammers as such. They are not good for any of us. It is a cloud over a secure rce to be sure. I hope Hopkirk get`s some resolution. Not a small sum to be out. You can see why people would go out of their way to own such an item. We want to trust people. Unfortunately it`s often only until they give us reason otherwise that we don`t.

And lastly I do hope the original post was accurate. I would hate to have hijacked and dredged up dirt for no reason.

 

[nar]

i did not read all anweres, but was not it possible to let uber write support, that seems to help.
If this does not help file local policereport , in this case MA MUST help, if they want or not.
greethings nar

 

[Xen]

Unfortunately, MA "caved" in and replaced the "ahem" "lost" PEDs but, you know what? This is setting a VERY dangerous precedent. I can see it now..."Oh, MA!! I was scammed on my 5k worth of sweat and now I want my money back!!! Boo-Hoo".

and when the HELL will that stop?

and, really....that is just plain STUPID.

Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, are you saying here that Hopkirk got his peds back?

 

[jjmatrix]

What Xen said.

 

[fresco]

I'd like to nominate this incedent to be the first entry in the EU Darwin Awards.

got my vote here

 

[Immortal]

POLICEE!!!! I think if I give this guy dressed in a thief-mask holding a dollar-sign bag my money he is going to run off with it!

....
ZOMG he ran off with it!!!!



Stop blaming others for your stupidity. This is just (two threads in a day, dbel?) another post to discredit MA, at no fault of their own. Like blaming a christian god for not protecting your house during a tornado, instead of taking out insurance.


Why doesn't hopkirk have the balls to start such a thread, hmm?

 

[safara]

Unfortunately, IF MA "caved" in and replaced the "ahem" "lost" PEDs but, you know what? This is setting a VERY dangerous precedent. I can see it now..."Oh, MA!! I was scammed on my 5k worth of sweat and now I want my money back!!!

Just to be sure I'm not misunderstanding, are you saying here that Hopkirk got his peds back?

What Xen said.

I suspect that Dano left of an "if" in his text.

 

[davidgr1200]

Dont give $8000 to a stranger.

especially one with, as you yourself described it "A checkered past"

 

[kyleen]

The story in short:
A friend and socmate of mine, Hopkirk, was approached by a player (we will call him X, his name may be found on other forums) who also has been a member of a top 10 soc. This player said he had an Imp Fap in the bank that he wanted to sell. Hopkirk and X agreed to a deal, the negotiations of which took place over a period of time.

Because X has a somewhat checkered past, Hopkirk alerted MA support that he was about to enter a deal with this person. He specifically told them that he would call upon them if the deal went sour.

Now the catch in the deal was that X didn't have the 80K peds that were supposedly required to retrieve the Fap from the bank, so X convinced Hopkirk to give this money as a first installment. This final phase of the scam took place while Hopkirk and X were in an MSN session as well as live on the phone with each other. Hopkirk felt pretty secure having some RL contact data of this person.

So Hopkirk handed over the 80K peds. After which the phone was hung up, the MSN closed and X logged off.
And Hopkirk knew he'd been had. A classic scam. But here's the twist to the story. Hopkirk is no noob. He had the presence of mind to warn MA Support in advance. He thought he had at least this base covered.

And now MA comes back with the default "All trades are final." reply.

Player X has been locked before, for scamming allegations. Hopkirk has been expertly given a false sense of security, but nevertheless had enough wits to try and buy some insurance in the form of MA Support. He's been politely told to p*ss off by them, after the fact.

Now all recriminations towards Hopkirk may be in order and correct - he should have known better, "All trades are final." etc, etc. - but none of it takes anything away from the purposefully criminal behavior by X. He is well-known to MA. And they will not lift a finger to help Hopkirk. They will not lock X.

Hopkirk is now trying several other ways to retrieve what is rightfully his. Mindark are being as unhelpful as they possibly can. They are more fickle than Greek gods. Sometimes they lock everyone even remotely suspected of having touched teinted money or items, and now they have the clearest case ever, and they're not even at the office.

I'm interested in what the community thinks of this.

This is just ridiculous... Sorry for not feeling an ounce of sympathy for your friend Hopkirk. 80k peds is no small amount of money, so why would Hop trust someone especially knowing that X has a checkered background and also having a gut feeling of warning MA first before hand?

Besides, did Hopkirk receive any form of reply from MA that they will be monitoring this trade? or something that says that "we will be monitoring your trade with X". If yes, then you might have MA to fall back upon, if not, then its all you alone, as seen from the default reply from MA " all trades are final"

This was just an rash, foolish and desperate move.
This has definitely enforced my discipline to always be patient and always rely on yourself to prevent/solve these kind of situation and not others.

All the best, hope you get your money back.

 

[sakuraqueen]

I still dunno how to make my post as an essay...how u all can post like that?

 

[TheLastKnight]

*yawn


this is stupid .

why would you give up $8K usd on a "TRUST" system on a dude that is already shady? I read up on so called "dude" and found that his story is the biggest scam/joke ever on EU! I may be wrong, or have the wrong character, but what I've read in on, someone that 'claims' he was hacked, and lost EVERYTHING, including skills, would somehow "come back" with a huge amount of skills, one of which would be 200 health and 60+ evade, can fool anyone that he was hacked?

I have to give props to this dude for leading everyone on as being "honest and willing to pay back his debt", he pulled it off with ease...posting and posting and RE posting to his innocence and everyone played along....what a joke . I may be wrong, and please set me straight....but at LEAST explain to me why this dude could have been trusted to begin with?

Just my 2 pecs....flame away .

Edit: If it is the same dude I'm thinking it is, I'm guessing he was "hacked" again, and will post thread upon thread claiming his innocense. Got the popcorn ready....staying tuned.

 

[Snabble]

Moral:

Dont give $8000 to a stranger.

Jesus, I could go on and on how dumb your friend is... and i could phrase it in so many ways... I honestly hope this didnt really happen...but if it did... he got what he asked for...

 

[AJack10600]

Semai says| ...

File a lawsuit... for 8k usd it could be worth it... and it forces MA to collaborate with the authorities...

 

[DRDoom]

I'm really sorry for Hop, he's a good guy, I did some large deals with him in the past and he's a 100% correct person.

A couple of days ago Hop Pmmed me that he needed some peds to buy back an imp fap from the bank. (I was under the impression that it was his IMP fap).
I didn't have that kind of peds on the ped card at that time.

Now if I see this story, I wonder if I borrowed Hop the peds, and Hop got scammed and lost the peds. Was he going to repay me those peddies? I'm glad I coudn't give him the peds and was not dragged into this.

I never knew <mention of name> was a scammer, I had a couple of chats with him in the past, he never "tried" anything with me.

I also ahve the same question as many ppl here, did MA respond to the support case been made prior to the trade?
If they didn't, I don't think Hop will get any further support.

Hop can file a police case with both UK & Swedish authorities. The risk is that the legal costs for lawyers etc & time spend will exceed the 8K US$.

I would start with a signed letter to his RL address, and get some legal advice.
With a court order you can get MSN chat logs from MS as well so it should be possible to make a strong case.

Good luck Hopkirk!

 

[TheLastKnight]

I never knew <removed nane> was a scammer, I had a couple of chats with him in the past, he never "tried" anything with me.


Hop can file a police case with both UK & Swedish authorities. The risk is that the legal costs for lawyers etc & time spend will exceed the 8K US$.

I would start with a signed letter to his RL address, and get some legal advice.
With a court order you can get MSN chat logs from MS as well so it should be possible to make a strong case.

Good luck Hopkirk!

For everyones information, I'm a nobody, just a regular EU player and someone that reads into EF like a religion (knowlege is power...or at least I think it is ), and reading into this <removed name> past has cued me into a revelation, if you will.....this guy is good, REAL good, if he fooled a lot of guys the first time around. I'm very cursious if it IS him, how he plans to snake his way out this time. , Staying tuned.

 

[Immortal]

ffs doom+last knight edit your posts threads can't maintain open accusation of scamming else they get locked/deleted

 

[xerxes]

lol, I was all like, who can it be? Then I checked that other forum and laughed my ass off. Dude, Hopkirk... really? Even my cat would have seen this coming miles away...

And btw. that avatar is a multiowned one. It gets passed around like a cheap whore.

This is completly your own fault. However I always feel that MA should help anyone that gets scammed or is a viticm of a criminal act. Just like in real life, the police don´t care how reatarded and slow you are, they will help you anyway (But they will probaly laugh behind your back )

Well lets see how this unfolds.