FYI: Mindark: Not the Enemy, not your friend either.

[TheLastKnight]

Or you can just give us the in game name of X and the whole EF community will know and his rep will be damaged, who knows?

against forum rules

Ok, well, how about this hypothetical scenario:
I make a deal with you, Nighthawk, and I was just scammed $8,000 USD. Now if I got on to EF to rant about it, I'd change the name.

I was just scammed, BLA BLA BLA, since I cannot use the players In Game name, lets just call him "Foeburner Nighthawk Delta".

Technically, I didn't break any rules because I changed the name, right?. HINT HINT

 

[Mercury]

One of the main problems (not including the all trades are final and should have known better) is the fact that Hopkirk has knowingly given out his User/Password to other people in EU prior to this problem. Who knows if this is THE Hopkirk? I do like THE Hopkirk, but we can't know for sure this is him unless someone has actually chatted with him lately and can confirm it is the same voice as before.

Worst part about this is that the player X tried a similar scam on me involving an imp 2870 pistol. I didn't think anything of it at the time and actually somewhat believed he needed the peds for removal from the bank, but I still didn't risk it as X had a checkered past (something involving Angel armor).

Dunno though, just my 2 cents. It seems like MA would have some chat logs on this matter if Hopkirk had any sense whatsoever he'd at least have typed that it was a quick loan in the game chat. If they can prove that via chat logs it shouldn't be a problem to strip the peds from X and give them back to Hopkirk (maybe for a 1k PED fee like their new tt policy).

 

[Zabler]

GAah.. i feel like im the only one who doesnt know who X is.. oO

my brain is burning.. BURNING..

 

[Mega]

but I still didn't risk it as X had a checkered past (something involving Angel armor).

Found out it's not 'that' X it's the 'other' X

 

[chielsen]

Dunno, click some high level costy blueprint that you don't have SIB on, set auctions with buyouts lower than TT value...
There are hundreds of ways to lose money fast when you get to think about it

too bad the opposite isn't true ;p

Selling to other people / buying from isnt loosing TT value into the lootpool.
Crafting some amp you dont max is a good one though

 

[chielsen]

GAah.. i feel like im the only one who doesnt know who X is.. oO

my brain is burning.. BURNING..

Searching gave me the answer in 20 seconds, HINT: scam + angel

 

[kosmos]

Not sure how it would be designed exactly but it could be possible to allow escrow to release bank loaned items.

this would be a good idea i agree.

A scam is not really very difficult to put right by MA - they just fix it - they can stop withdrawals - they can halt an account - track it all - and so they should - if they wanna convince people to add money to the game - because if they don't - your throwing money into a system that no insurance & that puts anyone with money off - eBay has insurance - pay pal has insurance ---

1. Search for scam transaction -> hmm 80k ped and nothing in return, hmm chatlog says prepayment for imp fap (and no imp fap traded)
2. Lock scammer
3. Find the money, track down transactions(and deeper ones)
4. Return the money / item
5. Withdraw the admin fee
6. Close scammer's account(s) and report to police

The guys is screwed, agreed. NEVER give out anything unless you absolutely trust someone...and even then, I wouldn't do it for $8,000 even if it was my own brother! It's hard to argue a case with MA on this, they are covering their own interest. Imagine MA decides to do something, and they approach "X", X may have his own version of the story and why he was given $8,000, now who would you believe? You can't pick sides in this, and MA is not a judge or jury, hence, "All trades are final".
All may not be lost, though. There is a way to track by phone numbers who is who and where. If you're in the same country, you have RL case against them...get the law involved....another country? Yikes, Interpol? Don't know if it's worth their time for $8000.

I hope at least the money isn't allowed to be withdrawn... and the avatar in question should be locked

One thing I think about what if the person trades with someone will that "tainted" ped cause someone else to be a suspect.

Very sad that this happened for sure. Problem is from MA's eyes a trade is a trade. Could be that 80k was a deal for a service agreed on a forum or elsewhere for instance.

Ultimately, unless you trust them, don't give anyone PED unless you're receiving what you want in return in the trade window.

Telling MA in advance doesn't really change it. By their own rules they can't really do much. Its a P2P trade and all trades are final.

Still, if it is indeed the case that this guy has trust scammed before, you'd like to think MA has some power to investigate and at least lock them. It may not be their duty, but still, do they really want these people around?



That's somewhat different as it was a P2MA trade not a P2P trade.

MA decided to change the rules as a result of that, and imo changed them for the better so I don't think that's an issue to complain about.

agreed

How the hell MA can know who lie , who say the true ?

In fact , MA can not know what kind of deal exist between player IRL ...
Maybe X did sell his car to Y
And if MA give back the ped to X then , its UY who got scamed...
Ma have no clue what you do IRL ... its to you ...

Sad , but rules are simple and know of evry player , and specially old...

And yes , maybe one day i will get scamed from something , and that day i will cry...But we have to assume hour action...

Up to you friend to call police...
From what i know the suposed scammer is swedish , so it will be fast to get MA solve problem if there is problem...

this scenario is possible sadly. thats why ma has their present policy

 

[Mkdesign]

Selling to other people / buying from isnt loosing TT value into the lootpool.

Hmm... perhaps,
but if you "resell" some metal residue for less than TT in auction, not only you lose your money, but you can also almost guarantee the metal residue is going to be cycled in the lootpool through ore-amps

Searching gave me the answer in 20 seconds, HINT: scam + angel

And if you still can't find it , it's probably because you have mud in yer eye

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

Found out it's not 'that' X it's the 'other' X

riiight so where's xxx?



TheLastKnight I really don't know what you mean, sry

 

[Nihilist]

is linking to other threads on ef ok then?

 

[AlphaGeek]

Well according to posts on a reality based forum, the complaintant had phone conversations, MSN chat sessions, and in-game chat sessions with the accused.

The 80k PED is a large sum of money in anyones court, so if I was the person out the cash (and having been foolish enough to put PED in a trade window with no itamz in the other trade window!) should contact their local law enforcement to ask what criminal action can be taken against an online fraud.

Where does the scammed person call home? This will have bearing on what laws are pertinent.

AG

 

[Dergin Skellig]

MA's best interests

It's in MA's best interests to not punish scammers. Only if somehow the action has a negative effect on MA's income or image. MA will cooperate with authorities if you get a case opened with your local lawdogs, trouble is a lot of authorities do not take this seriously (virtual money? sorry, we have murderers to let free and innocents to jail, go away) and consequently it goes uninvestigated and unpunished.

Its quite a longshot, but the thing to do would be to impress upon local authorities everything you expressed in your support. Tell them it is open and shut once they communicate with MA for the appropriate logs and information. It might not be such, but it certainly can help to grease the wheels a bit to tell them it is. Theres a lot of jurisdictional stuff they would have to consider I'm sure.

Worse comes to worse, make it as public as you can on as many forums as possible. Warn the new Planet Partners of these scams and ask about their policies regarding scamming players vs. all trades final. Warn local and international news media of online scams through these "universes" (not games, or they minimalize the idea) that offer RCE. Be loud, get people talking about it like us in this thread, because if neither the Company nor Authorities do anything, who else is there?

It likely will come down to the ultimate "All trades are final" but ignoring the issue of trust scammers and letting them freely scam others when proof positive is a mouse-click away is Unacceptable.

 

[Nazbrat]

What will it take for MA to change there Existing Policies

I think Nothing short of either a Country like the US banning MA for that specific Reason.
A Mass Hacking of accounts inside EU where Millions of USD worth of Peds goes down the Drain or Into some stupid fuckers account to be withdrawn.

Is this a Reason that the Bush Administration had for trying to Ban "Games of Skill" saying "Like Second Life" add that to the Mix and one can See why they would want a BAN on "Games of Skill" its to protect the people from what MA wont Scammers

 

[sakuraqueen]

I pick X for X-men....

 

[Skam]

Having said this somewhere else, Ill say it here aswell:
If I was in Hopkirk situation I would have, prior to doing any such trades of that magnitude:
1) Contacted the bank which Person X claimed to have the imp fap placed in. If the bank would not give out any information (not even a "no, that person does not have any trading with the bank") about the imp fap, then Id request Person X to assist me in getting that info.
Or at least request screenies, with date and time stamp, sent so quickly after I asked for it that he wouldnt have time to photochopchop it.

At least that would prove if he had a imp fap at all. A person who have a imp fap in EU have alot to lose if they were to be locked and banned from EU -More then 80k.

2) Even if he had contact with him on phone and msn I would request that all the information was to be taken also over private chat in Entropia, so that support could check it out.

Seriously if this dude had such a lousy reputation I wouldnt deal with him at all. and for 8k$, hell I'd even request a written IRL contract.
Im sorry for him, but honestly -he should have watched his own back more carefully instead of expecting MA to do it for him.

 

[Exanion_Xero]

ooosh that must really suck for him, but it is kinda his fault for sactually giving the money, shouldvve been no deal.

BUT MA has to have some responsibility over their game, and have some protection and actually stop all bad people scamming, or else everyone might just give up and down goes their game and their end of business

 

[Manique]

omg...

 

[aridash]

...none of it takes anything away from the purposefully criminal behavior by X. He is well-known to MA. And they will not lift a finger to help Hopkirk. They will not lock X.

Hopkirk is now trying several other ways to retrieve what is rightfully his. Mindark are being as unhelpful as they possibly can. They are more fickle than Greek gods. Sometimes they lock everyone even remotely suspected of having touched teinted money or items, and now they have the clearest case ever, and they're not even at the office.

actually on reflection, MA could and should lock the account. do we know that they havent? one might argue that scam cash cant be withdrawn without them first checking logs, but it doesnt take a genius to realise the ped would be funneled out via other avatars. probably too late now anyway. we cant have false accusations leading to accounts being locked, but if they can see a 80k trade for 0 items has taken place that should raise an eyebrow. as you say they locked down a lot of accounts for less. need tuning methinks.

 

[Alice]

best i start with this
i am sorry for that loss and hope he gets the cash back

the rest won't be that friendly maybe
let me get this straight

knowing that

Because X has a somewhat checkered past

Player X has been locked before, for scamming allegations.

still

X convinced Hopkirk to give this money as a first installment.
So Hopkirk handed over the 80K peds.

also knowing

who also has been a member of a top 10 soc.

wasn't there even a thought about asking for collateral?
an ex member of a top10 soc should have quite some option for collateral

especially knowing that he already scammed in the past it would be a good idea to ask for collat

if not, no deal

it is nice that you write to MA that you want to trade with a possible scammer
would be funny if everyone of us does that before every trade
"uncle support, the dude might scam me, please hold him"

as Etopia already said, they can't know about RL stuff, but even without
if you run around giving ppl 80k ped without collat, is quite an error

what do you want MA to do?
take stuff/ped from person A and give to person B isn't really something i would look forward too

it even seems he even told MA "that is a possible scammer-please save me"
if you know its a possible scammer you dont give 80k peds away to even risk such a thing

i don't get it

if you know its a possible scammer you either don't deal with him at all, or ask for collat

why asking MA to save you for precautions you should have met

i understand if you are pissed about trust scams, but this doesn't seem like one
since the person was already known as possible scammer


i hope Hopkirk get the ped back though, but still
blaming MA for mistakes he did, thats weird

it also wasn't a scam based on the scammed person not knowing about the game etc.

it seemed more like a 30 year old running around with a knife in the hand, asking your mother who is just cooking to watch after you so you don't fall into it
and then blame the mother

 

[Redfrog]

Aaah shit! First NoMan and now Hoppy

I really hope that this turns out better than the missing Angel but history is against it. And so is my gut feeling.

 

[EarlVonKippler]

Aaah shit! First NoMan and now Hoppy

in between that is Hyperion and the current thread topics X name.

 

[Spikey1989]

i have to agree with skam.

The first thing i got to know in entropia is a done deal is a closed deal.
I got scammed 1 week after i started to play, and i didn't get anything back.

What i understand. Hopkirk is a very well reputated player and have played for a long time. He should have known better, then trading with some1 that he don't get anything back from and know anthing about. He knew that something wasn't right and still got on with it.

The only times i trade with ppl with out get something back, when i give something is when i trust them. Those ppl can i trust alot on. That ain't many ppl in entropia (~10 ppl). sry for the litle offtopic

P.S. This are just how I see it.

/Spikey

 

[Nobatbbi]

"all trades are final" ?

I wouldn't consider that a trade. A trade happens when I give you something and in consideration you give me something in return.

What was described by OP was pure unadulterated fraud, possibly even could be considered theft.

 

[Redfrog]

What was described by OP was pure unadulterated fraud, possibly even could be considered theft.

Careful, people have been kneecapped for saying stuff like that.
Allegedly

 

[sdragonfire]

maybye a solution

ok you got this guys phone # right? now not sure if anyone else suggested this but it might work. Simply google reverse phone directory, enter their phone number and it should give you the persons address :-o
Maybye he deserves to be payed a visit? im sure some on this forum would llove to go with you just a thought

 

[CyberPunk]

The more I read these posts the more I start to wonder if this really even happened.

How on earth could an experienced player be convinced to give 80k ped, without getting any collateral, to a known scammer?

It just doesn't add up.

 

[FJRMac]

Damn ... that's insane.
I wouldn't hand any money over to someone who I thought was shady enough to validate sending MindArk a pre-emptive "I might be getting scammed" e-mail.
I also wouldn't lend $8,000 to anyone online without them giving me the deed to something valuable .. say .. their testicles.
My best wishes go out to Hopkirk in getting his $ back.

Agreed.

The old adage "If something sounds too good to be true is probably is" certainly applies in this case as well.

Perhaps something he could have done that was more helpful in avoiding this would have been to contact the bank manager and confirm that there was indeed that particular item under loan contract in that Ava's name.
Just thought.

 

[Nicole]

well I hope this work out for hop......... did ma respond before hop gave this person the peds? did they confirm that this person did have a fap at a bank? Just sending them a email / support would not have done anything until they got back to me... on a side note I would like you to pm me with this criminals name because that is exactly what he / she is...(the one that took the money)


No MA has to take action because they made a big thing not to far back on how they would not tolerate fraud in any form !

 

[Elless]

Well I'm sorry your friend got taken but even with rl contact it is still not a guarantee.

I believe mindark are a law to themselves & couldn't care less about anyone except themselves and their pockets.

If you expect them to help then maybe you should watch some paint dry somewhere too....

I doubt many of us even get our money's worth from them let alone help.

I hope your friend recovers his loss & I hope x gets assraped by a hairy gorilla.

 

[Noggin]

What can one say. I think this highlights the fact that RCE universes (especially ones of EU's magnitude) should not exist unless proper governance is established.

It's important that thieves (and that is what they are) at least have a chance of being caught. Thus far, they can get away with it with absolutely no fear of the law catching up with them.

It's wrong to steal, but in the context in which MA set us, it's actually not against any 'law' at all.

People trade property worth tens of thousands all the time, yet have no protection whatsoever. I think it's about time that changed. I also think it's about time MA took some more responsibility.

Thefts of thousands of dollars cannot and must not go unpunished - what's that telling the world otherwise?