Impact on professions of chipping skills

[Dale]

Coolness (cont)

Construction


Combat 1


Combat 2

 

[Jimmy B]

Thanks Dale, I'll take a look at those later and add the results to the first post.

Regarding pixel counting, there is some software Doer linked to on the other thread that can do it for you I believe. It didn't handle jpgs when I downloaded it though so yes, I've been counting pixels. I tend to overlay the "after" screenie on top of the "before" screenie, make the "after" partially transparent and zoom in. Then counting the difference in pixels is fairly easy. Only takes a minute or two per image so its not too painful

 

[Witte]

Coolness was already calculated in another thread. But it never hurts to confirm those results . I entered those on wiki some time ago:http://www.pe-wiki.info/Info.aspx?chart=Skill&id=104

 

[Dale]

Coolness was already calculated in another thread. But it never hurts to confirm those results . I entered those on wiki some time ago:http://www.pe-wiki.info/Info.aspx?chart=Skill&id=104

awww

well it wasn't in this thread

can see if you got it right Witte...

 

[Dale]

Concentration

651 concentration levels

All other pages unchanged from above

 

[Jimmy B]

Concentration Results

Well, I thought we were going to get some decimal places for the first time with the coolness one. But the VU or one of the mini-updates must have bugged your professions screen (or its been intentionally changed by MA for some reason) as your screens miss the (Hit) tag on the hit professions and the one-handed clubber (Hit) and two-handed Clubber (Hit) both seem to be showing just Clubber!

Much confusion arose until I realised that the chipping must have swapped them round in their positions...and that led to the results being exactly those Witte has added to wiki, with an error margin of 0.07% only possible! So a nice confirmation there.

Concentration certainly did bring about decimal places though. The results (accurate to within about 0.12%) are:

Teleporter 12.75% (pretty close to your estimate in the other thread but definitely not quite reaching 13.33% according to the chipping)
Sweat Gatherer 8.5%
Pyrotropian (Hit) 8.5%
Psychotropian (Hit) 8.5%
Biotropian 6.75%
Reviver 6.75%

I've updated the first post with the results, and also wiki.

Thanks Dale.

 

[Doer]

Regarding pixel counting, there is some software Doer linked to on the other thread that can do it for you I believe. It didn't handle jpgs when I downloaded it though so yes, I've been counting pixels.

Dunno why the thread is in the "Non EU Related" subforum but No Resources Found (NRF) is a great utility, and jpg support was added two versions ago although i haven't tried it.

 

[Dale]

Well, I thought we were going to get some decimal places for the first time with the coolness one. But the VU or one of the mini-updates must have bugged your professions screen (or its been intentionally changed by MA for some reason) as your screens miss the (Hit) tag on the hit professions and the one-handed clubber (Hit) and two-handed Clubber (Hit) both seem to be showing just Clubber!

Much confusion arose until I realised that the chipping must have swapped them round in their positions...and that led to the results being exactly those Witte has added to wiki, with an error margin of 0.07% only possible! So a nice confirmation there.

Concentration certainly did bring about decimal places though. The results (accurate to within about 0.12%) are:

Teleporter 12.75% (pretty close to your estimate in the other thread but definitely not quite reaching 13.33% according to the chipping)
Sweat Gatherer 8.5%
Pyrotropian (Hit) 8.5%
Psychotropian (Hit) 8.5%
Biotropian 6.75%
Reviver 6.75%

I've updated the first post with the results, and also wiki.

Thanks Dale.

Yeah, just keeping you on your toes Jimmy

In my defence, the 13.33% was a guess based on some very rough simultaneous equations. It did seem to fit so well at the time though. ah well

 

[Jimmy B]

In my defence, the 13.33% was a guess based on some very rough simultaneous equations. It did seem to fit so well at the time though. ah well

Pretty good estimate Dale! The sniper pro-standing thread has already been proved wrong by more, and that was months of work from quite a number of people!

 

[PINKY]

Quick question for you jimmy –

This is great work (first time I have seen it sadly) and thought it would be very useful for my skilling on beauty. The ultimate aim was to see if I can skill in anything else and still gain beauty related skills…for example, I used to skill Scanning mutants because it also gained genetics skills, which in turn affect beauty pro standings…

My reasons for this is that skilling on hair is become prohibitively expensive now (10 peds per click) so am looking for a work around….

I know fashion Design for example affects beauty prostanding, but then it got me wondering. Some skills are hidden… does the % affected change as hidden skills are unlocked or does it remain static.

When I read this back it doesn’t sound clear, so for example using totally fictitious figures:

Chipping Hair affects hair pro-standing: 50%
Chipping Platic surgery affects Hair pro-standing : 25%
Chipping Gentetics affects hair pro-standing 25%


So we now know 100% of the things that affect hair pro-standing… but if I unlock fashion design and beauty sense is it possible that reduces the other %’s like this:

Chipping Hair affects hair pro-standing: 50%
Chipping Platic surgery affects Hair pro-standing : 12.5%
Chipping Gentetics affects hair pro-standing 12.5%
Chipping beauty sense affects hair pro-standing 12.5%
Chipping fashion design affects hair pro-standing 12.5%

Or, would the original table have looked like this:

Chipping Hair affects hair pro-standing: 50%
Chipping Platic surgery affects Hair pro-standing : 12.5%
Chipping Gentetics affects hair pro-standing 12.5%

With the other skills being hidden and therefore not gaining…



I would assume that if hidden skills change the percentages affected this table is going to be inaccurate, however if the percents remain static we could assume that anything we can not identify 100% of has hidden skills still to be found on it…..

For example, not much is known about beauty other than it unlocks beauty sense and fashion design… if we chip all the different fields and come up with only 80% is it fair to say there is probably another hidden skill to unlock that will affect beauty pro-standing by 20%?


Wasn’t such a quick question after all… and not sure I have worded it very well either, but then I am at work and typing like the wind so I don’t get caught!

 

[ano]

The way I see it is best described by way of a simplified example.

Take laser sniper (hit) profession. Up until you gain Marksmanship, obviously the only skills that will have a bearing on the pro standing are those that you have, BUT the percentages will correlate with those already given, so say dexterity gives 3%, what this means is that for every 100 skills in dexterity you will gain 3 skills in your pro standing 'level' in hit (that is pro standing * 100). It, as far as I can tell, does not mean that there are 97% left to find, there may be more or less than '100%'.

In conclusion - all the percentages are there for is as an indication of how much of that skill goes to your pro standing not how much of your pro standing is made up by that skill - I think.

 

[Doer]

In conclusion - all the percentages are there for is as an indication of how much of that skill goes to your pro standing not how much of your pro standing is made up by that skill - I think.

Er...if you're saying what i think you're saying, you're right.

Pinky, when you chip 1k dexterity and find it contributes 1 level of professional standing in the Uber Chipper profession, it doesn't matter what you have (or haven't) unlocked: chipping another 1k dexterity at any time will give you another 1 level raise in professional standing unless the professional standing has hit its cap (i believe 100 is still the cap).

If you look at the breakdown for the Evader profession you'll see that over 30% is due to unlocked skills. Minimum damage for laser couldn't get up to level 95 without unlocking wounding, MMS, killstrike and RDA and getting all of them to high levels.

... formerly!

Now, because skills over 10k count toward your professional standing, you can actually reach level 100 in a profession without reaching 10k in all the associated skills. For convenience we still use % contributions which still bear the old meaning (using a 10k cap and 100 level pro standing cap).

Anyway sorry for the detour Jimmy.

 

[Jimmy B]

Anyway sorry for the detour Jimmy.

No need to be

Thanks for the question PINKY.

As ano and Doer have explained, unlocks don't affect the contribution from the other skills you already have - they will continue to provide the same impact as before and the unlock is, let's say, a 'bonus'. It is my belief that the percentage contributions with all the relevant unlocks will add up to 100%. Although there may be a slight tweak necessary for attributes, in order to make that the case.

So,

if we chip all the different fields and come up with only 80% is it fair to say there is probably another hidden skill to unlock that will affect beauty pro-standing by 20%?

Yes, I believe so.

Minimum damage for laser couldn't get up to level 90 without unlocking wounding, MMS, killstrike and RDA.

... formerly!

Being pedantic but: 'Formerly' only applies to the fact you don't need 10k in everything now. If you get Dmg pro up to level 90 you will of course have unlocked wounding, MMS, RDA and kill strike along the way

 

[ano]

thanks for saying it in a much more intelligible way doer

 

[PINKY]

Ok, now I am totally confused...

So based on:

Laser Weapon Technology (4, 57%)
Ranged Laser (Dmg) 25%
Laser Sniper (Hit) 14%
Laser Pistoleer (Hit) 14%
Laser Weapons Engineer: 4%

what would I gain by chipping 1k LWT?

And what does the (4,57%) mean next to it?

Sorry... I must be very thick

 

[Doer]

Ok, now I am totally confused...

So based on:

Laser Weapon Technology (4, 57%)
Ranged Laser (Dmg) 25%
Laser Sniper (Hit) 14%
Laser Pistoleer (Hit) 14%
Laser Weapons Engineer: 4%

what would I gain by chipping 1k LWT?

And what does the (4,57%) mean next to it?

Sorry... I must be very thick

The 4, 57% means that LWT affects a total of four professions for a total of 57% contribution; it's sort of a figure of merit for LWT as a skill.

1k LWT would get you 2.5 levels Ranged Laser (Dmg), 1.4 levels Laser Sniper and Laser Pistol, and 0.4 levels LW engineer. In other words, 1000/10,000=0.1; 0.1*100*25%, 0.1*100*14%, and 0.1*100*4%, respectively.

 

[Jimmy B]

Thanks Doer. Yes, the (4, 57%) isn't really particularly important, I just thought I'd keep a tally and see which skill gives you the most total profession!

The way I think of the % is this:

Profession level = (Weighted Average of profession skills)/1000

Weighted Average of profession skills = Sum of [(Level in relevant skill)*(Percentage contribution of skill)]

So if I have 2000 Jumping skills, 4000 Freefalling skills and 3000 Serendipity and the Jumping contributes 10% to Bungee Jumper, Freefalling 15% and Serendipity 75% (need a lot of luck when bungee jumping ) then:

Weighted Average of Bungee Jumper skills = (2000*10%) + (4000*15%)+(3000*75%) = 2850

Bungee Jumper profession level = 2850/1000 = 28.5

 

[PINKY]

Thanks Doer. Yes, the (4, 57%) isn't really particularly important, I just thought I'd keep a tally and see which skill gives you the most total profession!

The way I think of the % is this:

Profession level = (Weighted Average of profession skills)/1000

Weighted Average of profession skills = Sum of [(Level in relevant skill)*(Percentage contribution of skill)]

So if I have 2000 Jumping skills, 4000 Freefalling skills and 3000 Serendipity and the Jumping contributes 10% to Bungee Jumper, Freefalling 15% and Serendipity 75% (need a lot of luck when bungee jumping ) then:

Weighted Average of Bungee Jumper skills = (2000*10%) + (4000*15%)+(3000*75%) = 2850

Bungee Jumper profession level = 2850/1000 = 28.5

*gives up and goes home*

sorry, just dont understand how you are reaching these figures. thanks for trying to help though +reps all round... I am a lost cause!

 

[Doer]

*gives up and goes home*

sorry, just dont understand how you are reaching these figures. thanks for trying to help though +reps all round... I am a lost cause!

One more try for posterity.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with hunting and hunting skills, but that's the most easily explainable area so i'll use it. To "max out" the hit ability (10.0/10.0) on an old school laser rifle/carbine (one of the old ones without SIB like Justifiers and such) you need to have 10k in every skill that contributes to that hit ability (HA). That "maxed out" HA corresponds to a maxed out professional standing in Laser Sniper, that is to say, level 100.

The way we report the contribution of skills is how much of a role they play to getting that professional standing to 100 when it's in that maxed state. If you had 10k in all the laser rifle HA skills (level 100 Laser Sniper), and then chipped out all of your LWT skill, your professional standing in Laser Sniper would decrease from level 100 to level 86. That's because LWT contributes 100-86 = 14 out of 100, or 14%, of the professional standing.

Obviously if you only have 5k LWT it will only contribute half that many levels of professional standing (7). If you only had 1k LWT (1/10 of the 10k needed to max the pro. standing) it would only contribute 1.4 levels (1/10 or 0.1 of that 14%).

So, to calculate how much professional standing you will gain by adding x levels of a skill that contributes y% toward that profession, you multiply x/10,000 (the fraction of the 10k maxed skill you are adding) by y (the contribution of the skill -- 14% for LWT) and by the maxed profession level (100):

x/10,000 * y * 100

The last skill nerf VU removed the limit on skills so that 10k isn't really the cap anymore, but we still calculate the contribution the same way. It just means that if you have over 10k in a skill it will actually contribute more than it could have before this year: 20k LWT contributes 28 levels of Laser Sniper professional standing.

 

[chevrons]

Jimmy, may I say I commend you for the work going into this thread, and for the extra information you are adding to wiki. But now when I look at the wiki entries for weapons, for example, I am confused. The Skills sections are headed ‘Hit Skills’ and ‘Damage Skills’, with a subtext ‘you get these skills by using this weapon’, followed by lists of skills with percentages which are presumably the ones you have evaluated.

It seems to me the wiki entries are trying to do two things at once, showing the skills which you get by using the weapon, and showing the skills which contribute to the efficiency of using it, and these are not necessarily the same, they cannot be as far as percentages are concerned.

Wouldn’t it be more correct for there to be a section for the skills you gain, and a section for the skills which contribute to the Hit and Damage standings in 2 subsections, with your percentages?

This would allow a third set of percentages to be added, the ratios in which skills are gained by using the weapon, though these might change as new skills are unlocked. Are there already known values for these?

Do you know of instances where a skill contributes, but is not itself gained by using a weapon or tool?

 

[PINKY]

One more try for posterity.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with hunting....

Ok, I was with you up to the word hunting...

The rest of it really didnt make any sense to me at all... I thought this was about something totally different and I could have used it to help me skill the proffesion even when i couldnt afford to skill the skill.

Its fraustrating, because I normally understand math but I really dont get how you are finding these figures

 

[Doer]

Jimmy, may I say I commend you for the work going into this thread, and for the extra information you are adding to wiki. But now when I look at the wiki entries for weapons, for example, I am confused. The Skills sections are headed ‘Hit Skills’ and ‘Damage Skills’, with a subtext ‘you get these skills by using this weapon’, followed by lists of skills with percentages which are presumably the ones you have evaluated.

It seems to me the wiki entries are trying to do two things at once, showing the skills which you get by using the weapon, and showing the skills which contribute to the efficiency of using it, and these are not necessarily the same, they cannot be as far as percentages are concerned.

Witte is the one managing the wiki now. I believe he created the new skill contributions form on the professional standing pages, and he updates them.

Jimmy is "simply" verifying exactly how much each skill contributes toward each profession. That the information is later added to wiki is subsidiary. However if you read this whole thread (don't really blame you if you didn't ) you'll see that the only skill that (AFAIK) was ever in question for contributing to a professional standing that didn't skill it (Metallurgy) has been proven not to contribute: skills are gained by doing professions that use them, and only contribute to those professions. Furthermore it appears that they are gained in the ratio that they are used. LWT is the fastest increasing skill for laser weapon hunters because it contributes 25+14=39% total toward laser hit and laser dmg. So until someone proves otherwise, it's pretty safe to assume that the same numbers that show the contribution to pro. standing also show how fast the skill is gained by using that professional standing.

Pinky, at least it may be useful to someone who does hunt and didn't understand.

 

[chevrons]

Witte is the one managing the wiki now. I believe he created the new skill contributions form on the professional standing pages, and he updates them.

Furthermore it appears that they are gained in the ratio that they are used. LWT is the fastest increasing skill for laser weapon hunters because it contributes 25+14=39% total toward laser hit and laser dmg. So until someone proves otherwise, it's pretty safe to assume that the same numbers that show the contribution to pro. standing also show how fast the skill is gained by using that professional standing.

It was Jimmy's statement in his opening post that he updated wiki which led me to believe he could make the format of the entries clearer. Perhaps he would be kind enough to draw Witte's attention to my comments.

It's exactly the fact that there are two different percentages with which a skill contributes which makes the wiki format confusing, speaking as it does of skills gained, not skills used. Is there an assumption that a skill is gained at the average of these two values, or is there a weighting depending on the current relative standing for hit or dmg? In other words, when we see green skill gain lines, are they really coming from two contributory factors, namely from hit and dmg? If this is already explained somewhere in wiki then I apologise for raising it here, but I haven't seen it.

I know I'm discussing a side issue to the subject of the thread, but wiki is the public face of Jimmy's research, and it is surely important that the results are published in a form which users of wiki have no difficulty in understanding.

 

[Witte]

I will change the text to "These skills are involved using this item".

But like doer sais, AFAIK, every skill you gain using a certain item, also helps increasing the professions for using that item, and vica versa. So it doenst change much, but maybe its more clear like that.

edit: ok done, hope its more clear now

 

[Doer]

Furthermore it appears that they are gained in the ratio that they are used. LWT is the fastest increasing skill for laser weapon hunters because it contributes 25+14=39% total toward laser hit and laser dmg. So until someone proves otherwise, it's pretty safe to assume that the same numbers that show the contribution to pro. standing also show how fast the skill is gained by using that professional standing.

Something i just realized: Rifle contributes 40% to Laser Sniper, (compare with 39% total for LWT when considering both Sniper and (Dmg) contribution together), yet AFAIK LWT skills faster than Rifle when firing a laser rifle. That suggests to me that the probability of gaining a specific skill is not simply the percentage of its probability, or that dmg skills are gained faster overall for some reason (there are less total dmg-involved skills than HA skills). Does anyone have a way to reconcile this?

I had assumed that when using each profession (each time there's a skill check against that pro. standing level to determine success for an action), you have a certain chance of gaining a skill, and which particular skill gain (green message) you get is based on a the % contribution the skill makes to that profession. Unless dmg is gained faster than HA type skills or my premise that LWT is actually skilled faster than Rifle when using just laser carbines/rifles is wrong then i'm not sure how that would fit. Maybe it could be due to kill bonuses?

Perhaps this discussion of skill gains (as opposed to skill contributions to professional standing) belongs in a new thread. If anyone has more to say on it please start a new thread -- i've used up all the insight i had.

 

[Witte]

AFAIK LWT and rifle gain about the same speed. Although most people use HG too, which results in a high LWT skill.

 

[Jimmy B]

Apologies, I was away for the weekend.

The skills you gain whilst performing an activity are those very same skills that contribute to the profession relevant to that activity.

This should help PINKY - you can skill Hair Stylist by increasing any of the skills you can gain whilst Hair Styling. It might be slower though. For instance, dexterity appears to have a very small contribution. So you will gain a little in your Hair Styling profession even whilst hunting.

It also helps Chevrons - I believe the way wiki does it is fine. All the skills you gain hunting, for instance, will be the ones that contribute to your pro-standing. If you watch carefully, you can see that you'll never get an anatomy gain from shooting and missing. Anatomy only affects the Dmg pro-standing so it is only gained when you hit a mob. You can on the other hand gain all the skills that affect the (Hit) pro-standing when missing as well as when hitting.

I'm not sure as to the rate you get the skills. It might be the same percentages, it may not. Its not something I've ever considered before to be honest. Regarding the LWT/rifle discussion, my LWT was always a little higher than my rifle than I'd expect if they skilled at the same rate but its pretty close so I may just have misjudged the amount I'd gained from handgunning & crafting. Maybe skill kill bonus is more likely to give you lwt than rifle, dunno.

 

[Qweeg]

Just a quick note regarding the LWT vs Rifle skilling. I have never fired a pistol (still have skill of 1 in it ) and only ever use LWT rifles and currently I have 4490 in LWT and around 4350 in Rifle. So LWT does indeed skill slightly quicker. Hope this helps .

 

[Jimmy B]

Thanks Qweeg. Can you confirm you've never crafted a weapon too?

 

[actam]

Thanks Qweeg. Can you confirm you've never crafted a weapon too?

Coming to think about it, I'm in the same situation.
I had (remember this 100% sure) that I had 1000 rifle and 1200 LWT.
No crafting or HG then...
And, btw, I did was always thinking: "Why the hell LWT is always bigger that rifle? I'm using a rifle... "