Developer-Notes--2

[Fifth]

I would just like to say that since I moved up my hunting on more skilled based mobs, for example scips or sumima, I do loot a lot of L weapons. I see HL8 from scips, and sometimes LR53 from sumima.

I use an LR (L) to loot those weapons, and I convinced that skills unlocked those loots for me, using the right weapon + skill to trigger those loots.

Can't confirm that one... i remember we got lot of HL8 from scips years ago when we were total noobs.
It was not worth it because we were too inefficient, our armor decay bill was huge, etc... but we got the (L) weapons in loot.

 

[Ace Flyster]

From original post:



In usual terms though economy and efficiency is different.
Breer m1+a101 is very economic; but for most mobs, especially regen ones, it's not efficient. (I did a run on atrax with that combo a couple of years ago and got 30 ped armor decay for 20 minutes of hunting.)

As for economics there are two several sides:
- One is the raw cost/shot cost. How much ammo and decay it costs for "1 dmg" at a theoretical max hit; for opalo say 4 HP/pec. For IMK2 4.6 HP/pec. For Mux boxingglove 2 HP/pec.
- Effective eco when less ideal hits are taken into account and this depends on skill level. Let's say 3 HP/pec on a maxed opalo.
- Eco when markup% is accounted for. At 160%, cost for Dai Katana(L) would be say 2 HP/PEC.

I have always treated economy and efficiency as "the least cost to do any desired activity".

Eg for hunting, the least it costs to kill any particular mob, if that is an uneco weapon but no armour or fap decay, which costs less than an maxed weapon with armour fap decay then that is the most efficient way of killing a mob

Rgds

Ace

 

[RickEngland]

One more thing - I call BULLSHIT on the skills thing at least when it comes to HA. I miss just as much with a 10/10 Weapon as one that it 7.4 ish / 10. So telling us that it 'matters' well,... guess I don't see that part of it.

Casay

I think the community get too hung up on misses. I view this as the system compensating as your are too skilled, so the system forces misses to try and trigger you a better loot.

how many times have you missed loads on a mob, and then that mob triggers a global. happens a lot, don't worry about it.

Ok i posted in Mindforce about too many misses on Ignite chips, but that was a different issue altogether, as I think that is a design fault.

You should really come back Casey, I think the loot system is more fair now that it has been for a long time. (hope i don't regret saying that tonight).

Rick

 

[aia]

I would just like to say that since I moved up my hunting on more skilled based mobs, for example scips or sumima, I do loot a lot of L weapons. I see HL8 from scips, and sometimes LR53 from sumima.

I use an LR (L) to loot those weapons, and I convinced that skills unlocked those loots for me, using the right weapon + skill to trigger those loots.

LR53(L) and HL8(L), well they're at levels 27-28 (about half my level), it would be fun with something bigger. I got a socmate who looted a mod LR53 repairable, which is nice when you can tier it up and keep the tiers. Scips aren't really my favorite, though it's doable, it's not convenient to hunt with ghost.

I've looted an X5(L) handgun from CP - planned to keep it though until later when I think I'll really need it (in a bigger event) so I don't want to sell it now for PEDs or to grind it up too much on day-to-day hunts.

I don't remember which gun I was using when I got that X5(L), but I guess it was either Sulfury(L) I had brought up from calypso, or my plasma rifle.

I got an LR41(L) in storage with nice tier values, but despite the nice tier values I guess it's going to be hard to find a buyer for it.

About once/6 months I loot a HL12(L) from thorifoids. Ocassionally HL11(L) from SEG.

I usually use the guns I have (usually means plasma rifle) or the weapons I can come over at a decent cost... (like electric attack chip IX(L)), Sulfury(L), maybe Cleaver(L) for fun).

 

[falkao]

..
Can you fit the item drop rate as posted in post 280 in your random model ?

...

maybe I don't get it, but those that due buy more tickets will more likely get the price.

 

[Chrome]

I think the community get too hung up on misses. I view this as the system compensating as your are too skilled, so the system forces misses to try and trigger you a better loot.

TOO skilled?

 

[remontoire]

And you still get loot proportional to expenses and not mob kills. So skills zero points, money infinity points

And would you happen to have a proof of that?

 

[mrproper]

TOO skilled?

Not skilled enough, misses. Too skilled, misses. Because logic

And would you happen to have a proof of that?

Yes, please click the links I posted in this topic.

 

[Greznik]

If its found to be gambling aren't we in danger of losing a lot of American players?

MA has just stated that skills and efficiency matter, so it can't be gambling.

 

[RickEngland]

TOO skilled?

Chrome: you never seem to contribute to the debate but constantly look for avenues to judge. It is becoming boring. And for some reason you hate me, or maybe it's everyone, not sure yet.

However to defend my point of view, and this is just a viewpoint only, if you watch "Star's" stream he has just as many misses as everyone else and he is level 160 last I heard. So misses is just part of the loot build equation in my view, so if you get better hits on mobs becasue of skill, then maybe the system is attempting to compensate in some form.

What ever the reason for misses, as long as the total loot at the end of the hunt is ok, then no need to be concerned about misses.

going hunting enough of forum.

Rick

 

[Naithen]

Chrome: you never seem to contribute to the debate but constantly look for avenues to judge. It is becoming boring. And for some reason you hate me, or maybe it's everyone, not sure yet.

However to defend my point of view, and this is just a viewpoint only, if you watch "Star's" stream he has just as many misses as everyone else and he is level 160 last I heard. So misses is just part of the loot build equation in my view, so if you get better hits on mobs becasue of skill, then maybe the system is attempting to compensate in some form.

What ever the reason for misses, as long as the total loot at the end of the hunt is ok, then no need to be concerned about misses.

going hunting enough of forum.

Rick

Missing is just another way for MA to take your ped! Like i said earlier-There is no reason to "MISS" as a noob or as a vet all the missed shots are "fake" and unrelated to skills ,weapon setup or anything else!Missed shots = lost peds! Either MA takes the missed shots as profit or missed shots go back to filling the mob spawns in the area your hunting.And really that makes sence because MA pays for nothing in game.The loot and items in game is funded 100% by players deposits.MA just takes .

 

[mrproper]

Allright guys, riddle me this:
1. MA plans loot TT to be 90% of the 100% costs required to get that loot, if you play efficiently.
2. You can't play "more efficiently" than efficiently, 90% is max.
3. Some people play stupid and "inefficient", they get less than 90% because of their mistakes.

What happens with the % of peds MA receives from "inefficient" players?

It sure as hell it doesn't go to those that play averagely efficient or overly efficient because they don't get it. If it did, super-eco players would get rich by now with the hof hunters waste.

Does MA gets to keep the money or do they give it back?

 

[RickEngland]

Allright guys, riddle me this:
1. MA plans loot TT to be 90% of the 100% costs required to get that loot, if you play efficiently.
2. You can't play "more efficiently" than efficiently, 90% is max.
3. Some people play stupid and "inefficient", they get less than 90% because of their mistakes.

What happens with the % of peds MA receives from "inefficient" players?

It sure as hell it doesn't go to those that play averagely efficient or overly efficient because they don't get it. If it did, super-eco players would get rich by now with the hof hunters waste.

Does MA gets to keep the money or do they give it back?

I'm sure MA has said before they only make there money from decay of certain things (or similar words), this could be residue of un-usable part of L guns for example, although just speculation.

Then I guess the remaining peds are up for grabs, to other avatars. Just could mean that depo peds of the lucky winner lasts a little longer. Some people do profit, so more than 90% for them. I don't really believe in the 90% rule anyhow. I just work on the principle that I want my depo to last a month please approach.

Be be fair I'm not keen on the term stupid players (not having a go at you sir), I tend to look at this as people trying an activity outside of their comfort zone, and reaching out for something new even if beyond their skill level. How would we have ever got to the moon without risk takers.

What Ma is saying I think, is this sort of activitiy carrys risks of heavy losses, and certainly not to be done until "ready" and skilled to try it on a long term basis.

A lot of ATH's have hit from people taking risks.

ok ate my dinner, really loggin in now.

laters

Rick

 

[Chrome]

Chrome: you never seem to contribute to the debate but constantly look for avenues to judge. It is becoming boring. And for some reason you hate me, or maybe it's everyone, not sure yet.

However to defend my point of view, and this is just a viewpoint only, if you watch "Star's" stream he has just as many misses as everyone else and he is level 160 last I heard. So misses is just part of the loot build equation in my view, so if you get better hits on mobs becasue of skill, then maybe the system is attempting to compensate in some form.

What ever the reason for misses, as long as the total loot at the end of the hunt is ok, then no need to be concerned about misses.

Honestly Rick, I just don't have the energy to "debate" this so-called game anymore (because it is boring), I just found it comical that people strive for months, even years, to gain skills... only to become "too skilled". So I simply gave a short comment/question with a face-palm smiley.

It has nothing to do with you personally, and I'm not judging you, so keep your panties on.


To elaborate, you are correct in that as long as the total loot at the end is consistant, I guess it really doesn't matter whether MA adds MISSES to your hunting. However, I think it is beyond retarded that skill (especially being skilled with maxxed stats on any weapon) does not seem to reduce the over MISSES while hunting. They are annoying and greatly detracted from my overall hunting enjoyment.

 

[DavinFelth]

B]2. Efficient vs inefficient hunting:

[/B]During first 6 months of my EU life i hunted the least eco way.... I've always hunted with weapons with SIB yes .... as soon as i maxed on one weapon (no more sib yes) i moved to the next level of weapons... this pattern I continued until I maxed out on cb26. So hunting with weapons like that and having low evade, imho, were among the most uneco way of doing business in EU... and yet after 5 months of playing... I think i was over all positive... coz i used to get a lot of globals and hofs...

Fastforward.. after reaching mid level ie hp >150... i did the most eco way of hunting...
To give an example, I did atrox, scips and sumima missions using gremlin as armor and p5a + 104 in 2 persons team. ... and despite my every effort to prevent loss on MU I was getting return like ~60%. or worse..
Not sure what could make those more efficient... and prevent loss...

So I think we are missing something more important here....and would like to hear more from MA regarding lootpool and those uber hof...

[/B].

This is exactly my thoughts. Their definition of efficient is left open to interpretation. Am I most efficient if I hunt punys with opalo, when i'm level 59 laser? Or should I be hunting Dasp with a fapper? What you said sounds most efficient to me.... using eco armor and a gun that does damage to match well with the mobs level, HP, and regen. Keeping MU low, and hunting with another like you say... and then consistent low returns... doesn't seem to match what they are saying. I'm no expert on the game, but from what I have learned in 3 years, this is as eco hunting as it gets (exceptions apply of course)
We are missing something on what they deem as success and efficient....

 

[Uvas]

This is exactly my thoughts. Their definition of efficient is left open to interpretation. Am I most efficient if I hunt punys with opalo, when i'm level 59 laser? Or should I be hunting Dasp with a fapper? What you said sounds most efficient to me.... using eco armor and a gun that does damage to match well with the mobs level, HP, and regen. Keeping MU low, and hunting with another like you say... and then consistent low returns... doesn't seem to match what they are saying. I'm no expert on the game, but from what I have learned in 3 years, this is as eco hunting as it gets (exceptions apply of course)
We are missing something on what they deem as success and efficient....

And maybe Mindark considers it efficient when you hunt mobs that are at the limit of your skill range. Meaning using the best maxed weapon your skills allow. And then using it on a mob that you can kill with minimal damage...or something along those lines.

So A lvl 60 hunter using an opallo to kill snables wouldn't be considered "efficient".

Just a thought...

 

[Wollongong]

Finally!
An end to the whole "Personal Lootpool" mythology. Finally!

I am just so happy to hear this, because it means the game actually has some meaning (despite having spend quite a few ped over the years, and welcoming any HoF to give me some free playtime).

But what I cannot understand, is how people STILL argue that the personal lootpool MUST exist, even though Lootius himself has spoken to us about it. Well, maybe I can understand: it is hard to understand how statistics works.

To those seeking too much behind the timing... this really is nothing new, the EULA always said we weren't building up any rights by playing (monetarily, that is). The fact that some chose to believe some theory is not the fault of MA. It is not a bad thing they have killed this theory, it is good. And it is probably costing them a lot of money, as many will now switch to a more eco playstyle.

MA never told us we could expect any particular personal return. So those who believed it to be true, can only blame themselves.

This kind of transparancy may actually pursuade me (at some point) to start depositing again.... may take a while though, as I just pumped about € 1100 into the game around nov-dec...so I need to recover. But when I get back to playing a lot again (after summer, I guess) I might just become a regular again. Small deposits, but steady.

And now, I'll go outside for a walk, because the weather is just too great to sit inside.

 

[Cail]

And you still get loot proportional to expenses and not mob kills. So skills zero points, money infinity points

I've seen tests done about this, which were more or less inconclusive...

So basically you are saying that it does not matter how many mobs you kill, but rather how many peds you spend on one kill?
That sir, is just plain wrong, but if you do want to spend 500 peds on one argo kill, just to get better loot, be my guest.

 

[Doer]

However, I think it is beyond retarded that skill (especially being skilled with maxxed stats on any weapon) does not seem to reduce the over MISSES while hunting. They are annoying and greatly detracted from my overall hunting enjoyment.

While I agree that misses are annoying, especially when six stack up as a mob chews on you, this statement that increasing skills does not decrease misses has been made a few times, and doesn't agree with the facts. HA on a weapon accurately reflect how many misses you will have, period. This has been established repeatedly.

Now, any skills beyond those to MAX HA don't affect misses, and while that's annoying, it is consistent with the game economy mechanism and, as you say, doesn't matter as long as it is handled the same for all.

But HA does determine misses.

 

[valentin]

And maybe Mindark considers it efficient when you hunt mobs that are at the limit of your skill range. Meaning using the best maxed weapon your skills allow. And then using it on a mob that you can kill with minimal damage...or something along those lines.

So A lvl 60 hunter using an opallo to kill snables wouldn't be considered "efficient".

Just a thought...

I you are 10/10 at your tool then you are "efficient" but be careful so you dont waste ammo over the mobs hp.

 

[mastermesh]

While I agree that misses are annoying, especially when six stack up as a mob chews on you, this statement that increasing skills does not decrease misses has been made a few times, and doesn't agree with the facts. HA on a weapon accurately reflect how many misses you will have, period. This has been established repeatedly.

Now, any skills beyond those to MAX HA don't affect misses, and while that's annoying, it is consistent with the game economy mechanism and, as you say, doesn't matter as long as it is handled the same for all.

But HA does determine misses.

Yep. HA determines misses - even though you still may miss with 10/10. HA also controls the amount of criticals... It seems to me, just in my own experiences that usually if I have 10/10 HA on some weapons and I get multiple misses I typically get a few more crits right after that row of misses. It is annoying, but seems to be part of the way the system works. Of course, if that is really the way it works, there's that whole tracking history thing creeping it's ugly head again, lol.

In all honestly, the algorithm for loot is probably so convoluted with "go to" type logic from back when this was project entropia that even the balancing managers probably have no idea what all the variables are that go in to the algorithm... and just because they think it works one way, anyone that knows much about computer programming knows that any program, even those run by banks and other 'safe' places that handle money can have bugs, etc. Ultimately, it's all ones and zeros, and some sort of random number generator. Random number generators created by humans on computers always will have some part of it that is not completely and totally random because that is just the way computers work.

 

[Sunsout Gunsout]

CLD's (an end around the SEC or whatever governs Swedish stock, selling off part of the company to people who have no recourse if you decide not to pay them)

+

Swedish Gambling Commission investigations (what I believe caused the Dev Release)

+

No Personal Loot Pool release (the 30k+ USD I have lost is gone forever? ok fine...thanks for at least telling me. I just added up depo history and last 12 was over 18K usd...and all my items in game are worth only 3k usd with MU included) So because of this release, I feel that all that money is gone forever. All my 40% return mining and crafting and hunting runs will never be repaid. This game saw me as a sucker and constant depositor, and turned the mf'ing loot OFF for my avatar. (My 4k ped Boorum and a 7k ped Gang don't mean shit so don't point them out...on the days I got them, I had lost 2 times that in the 2 days prior.) I know no one from MA promised me anything about returns in the past, but now that they are clear about it, I have no hope anymore and no reason to keep shooting.

+

All the good items from Robot Event went to a few special Soc's.
This one is the worst of all.
__________________________________________________________________________________

= I just can't do it anymore. I loved the game, cuz of the people in it, but all I feel safe doing anymore is starting a god damn selling thread.

Edit: Link to what I have for sale: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Everything-is-for-sale&p=2952573#post2952573

 

[Jimmy B]

Guess what falkao, Steffel and Noodles, your proof work here, is wrong.
And guess what jjmatrix, you were wrong too.
Noiseless that tracked his activity over 3 years, is wrong too.
BaronNuss, stop logging your 90% returns, you are clearly wrong somehow...
Oh, DoubleWolf is wrong too, JimmyB is wrong too, and even mrproper is wrong too.

Now, who is right?! Show yourselves and step forward so we may admit our mistakes to you.

I have no problem with being shown to be wrong, then I have learnt something.

But the crucial difference between the threads you have linked there and what you are doing here, is that the tests were publicly documented and thus other people could try to reproduce the results, and try to refute the conclusions.

It's impossible to debate with you here because you just say "X people have done a test, from which we conclude Z". Great. How was the data collection done? How do I go about reproducing your results for myself? How do I analyse your results to assess whether the conclusions you draw from them are valid?

You haven't even explained your logic in saying these are wrong. For instance, BaronNuss getting 90% returns does not go against anything MA have said in these developer notes. He is mining, so aside from avoiding possible mistakes like double-bombing there is not much he can do with regards to efficiency. There's no requirement for a personal lootpool to produce the 90%, and random loot from a distribution (like the one proposed in falkao's thread for instance) would produce a similar result.

The thread of mine you link to was a rather short test, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is something wrong at all. But again, I don't see how the conclusions we drew in that test go against anything MA said. I was looking specifically at regeneration, and if I recall right the results suggested (contrary to my expectations when I started the thread) that the loot is proportional to how much HP was killed. That would mean that someone killing a high regen mob with a low dps gun could do as well as someone killing a high regen mob with a higher dps gun of the same efficiency (ie. dpp), despite the former spending more to do kill each mob. But MA have not said anything about regeneration, they have said that economy of weapons matter.

Allright guys, riddle me this:
1. MA plans loot TT to be 90% of the 100% costs required to get that loot, if you play efficiently.
2. You can't play "more efficiently" than efficiently, 90% is max.
3. Some people play stupid and "inefficient", they get less than 90% because of their mistakes.

What happens with the % of peds MA receives from "inefficient" players?

It sure as hell it doesn't go to those that play averagely efficient or overly efficient because they don't get it. If it did, super-eco players would get rich by now with the hof hunters waste.

Does MA gets to keep the money or do they give it back?

Alternatively:

1. MA plans TT loot to be 90% of costs required to get that loot.
2. They make a formulaic estimate of how much it will cost on average to kill a mob.
3. They set the loot distribution on the mob to return an average of 90% of that.
4. Over time they log how much it costs players on average to kill that mob.
5. They adjust the loot distribution on the mob to return an average of 90% of that.
6. They repeat 4 and 5 periodically.

Thus some very eco players could make more than 90% and some will make less, but the average always stands at roughly 90%.

I'm not saying I believe it necessarily works like that, but I don't see why it would be impossible to do it like that.

 

[Xavier Target]

MA has just stated that skills and efficiency matter, so it can't be gambling.

I see many make these statements and I am not sure if they are being sarcastic or serious, but if you are serious, in your opinion, if it involves skill then it is not gambling? do you believe gambling games such as craps, poker, sports betting, etc are not really gambling since they involve a level of skill?

 

[remontoire]

All the good items from Robot Event went to a few special Soc's.
This one is the worst of all.

Like Skilling Villains, you mean?

 

[Jimmy B]

Like Skilling Villains, you mean?

Yeah, we get all the good stuff!

 

[mrproper]

I've seen tests done about this, which were more or less inconclusive...

So basically you are saying that it does not matter how many mobs you kill, but rather how many peds you spend on one kill?
That sir, is just plain wrong, but if you do want to spend 500 peds on one argo kill, just to get better loot, be my guest.

Which tests have you seen? I did some tests myself and studied tests by other people. They surely DON'T show that loot correlates to kills but correlates more with costs. I mean, you can clearly see that, it takes just a bit of mathematics knowledge, not even high school knowledge. Yet people can say "oh you're wrong", just because.

 

[mrproper]

The thread of mine you link to was a rather short test, so I wouldn't be surprised if there is something wrong at all.

Tell me the conclusion you drew from that test was a guess and a possible random coincidence

Alternatively:

1. MA plans TT loot to be 90% of costs required to get that loot.
2. They make a formulaic estimate of how much it will cost on average to kill a mob.
3. They set the loot distribution on the mob to return an average of 90% of that.
4. Over time they log how much it costs players on average to kill that mob.
5. They adjust the loot distribution on the mob to return an average of 90% of that.
6. They repeat 4 and 5 periodically.

Thus some very eco players could make more than 90% and some will make less, but the average always stands at roughly 90%.

I'm not saying I believe it necessarily works like that, but I don't see why it would be impossible to do it like that.

1. Ok.
2. Ok.
3. Ok.
4. Ok.
5. Ok.
6. Ok.

Where is the part that eco players get more loot back than the average players? If they decide how much a mob should loot, and a player uses the average cost, he gets 90%. However if he uses LESS than average, he should get more than 90%. Yet he doesn't. Alternatively, players that use MORE than the average cost, still get 90%. Unless someone has some tests comparing very eco and very uneco hunting and shows major variations from 90%?

 

[Jimmy B]

Tell me the conclusion you drew from that test was a guess and a possible random coincidence

As I remember it, falkao did some statistical analyses of my results and found that it was highly likely the loots where I let the mob regenerate were drawn from a distribution with higher average than the loots where I killed the mob straight away.

I'd have to reread it all in depth to further discuss it, but the conclusions aren't at odds with anything MA have said in these notes so I'm not sure why we're discussing it. If you want to refute the conclusion I'll be happy to read your refutation, I suggest either gathering a similar larger data set and showing the results were just a fluke (or otherwise), or by finding a flaw in our analysis of the results.

Where is the part that eco players get more loot back than the average players? If they decide how much a mob should loot, and a player uses the average cost, he gets 90%. However if he uses LESS than average, he should get more than 90%. Yet he doesn't.

Remember most guns have fairly similar economies. Unless I misunderstood, Pham says earlier in this thread that he made small tt profit with maxed imk2.

 

[Deleted member 26456]

OMG what was MA thinking, did they realy think the discusions would end?