Hangars (a simple plea)

How would more hangars being introduced solve anything? Prices would still be high, and many will still be bought just for personal use or investment. 5 more pilots on the market will not make a big difference I think, just more pilots competing at peak hours, putting some of them off too maybe.

One solution that would make everyone happy is some sort of booking/automated flight system I guess.

Exactly my point!

I really hope MA implements something like this, and very soon. So that the system can be tried and tested for real before thousands of chineese people join and want to fly.
 
If the whole process could be (partially) automated more (all?) spaceships would be available while the owner are having fun doing stuff (and spending PEDs) instead of falling alseep doing nothing.

yeah, along with (partially) automated hunting, mining and crafting.

if there is to be such systems, the renumeration should reflect the pilots physical input, ie very little.
 
there are tons of poor, really poor noobs in this game. i am sure there are plenty who would work for these hangar owners. MA should institute a system allowing these owners to employ people to run flights for them. would require a system where owners could give poor soc mates or something limited access to the hangar controls and whatnot, just enough to run the flights. either that or automate it with npcs like the banks have.

You've obviously only joined EU in the last 3-4 weeks good riddance to the renters.................
 
Skippie

Get Cleetus on your FL, he's canadian so flies during your time zone - and he's cheaper to - 20 up to CND 15 down, not sure about CP but I think is also oldskool prices.:yay:

Norb
 
I apologize for sarcasm beforehand, but i just can't keep my mouth shut any longer.

You people are just funny! First you whine about big bad pilot-mafia who are charging cut-throat rates and suggest to operate as cheap as possible, as well as being generally hostile towars pilots... and a few weeks later you whine about there being no pilots around. It's nothing more than a simple cause-consequence...

Yes, there are some objective reasons, but i suspect that some pilots have been pushed over the edge by hostility from the community. Over the last few years, pilot bashing was becoming almost a sport. And now you wonder where they're gone? Consider this for a moment: would you stand around all day, hoping to gather a flight every 2-4 hours and earn 3-5$ from it? Yes, there are some people that would do it, but ontop of that, you have to face a tremendous stress. When i quit piloting, i didn't quit because i wasn't earning enough or something. I quit because i was getting too freaking tired by all shit-storms on forums and ingame, as well as being called names. I've decided that it's just not worth it. Money is not everything afterall.

So, you reap what you sow...
 
yeah, along with (partially) automated hunting, mining and crafting.

if there is to be such systems, the renumeration should reflect the pilots physical input, ie very little.

Being a pilot has more to do with being a landowner than the above professions. Being a pilot is not 'fun' and you don't get any skills.
A landowner don't even have to be online much to run his property.
 
Skippie, I have a North American pilot on fl if you need a pilot during your normal hours of play..Let me know if you want more details.

:)

PS. It's not Cleetus either, just saw the post above mine.
 
Being a pilot is not 'fun' and you don't get any skills.

this arguement is really tiresome. if its such a chore why be a pilot? because you make money. alot of money. you dont get skills because you dont need skills.

though i'll accept that it is different from other activities, its nothing like being a land owner. if it were a simple tp point (ok its little more at the moment) that involved no interaction at all, then i would see the comparison. but it has clearly been developed as a avatar dependant activity. it would be wrong to suddenly change the system to be automated, just because some with large resources have cornered the market and choose to not activly fly.

the actual solution lies in releasing more ships (not necessarily hangers) and reducing the costs of flights, or providing other revenue ie through transportation of goods. Or, a less inventive solution, simply providing a formal, official way to rent hangers.
 
the actual solution lies in releasing more ships (not necessarily hangers) and reducing the costs of flights

Isn't this exactly what would happen if they automated the process?
 
I think Pilots wil loose their job in future

LAst VU or so MA made it possible for hangar owners that have 2 or more hangars , be able to use diffrent hangars with same ship .
so separating ship from hangar was first step .
next step is that MA wil make new spaceships availble . so hangar owners wil use hangars to upgrade spaceships (garage) or something like that.

maybe i wrong , but maybe not ;)
 
Isn't this exactly what would happen if they automated the process?

i mean the decay/oil cost. the simple economics of flying is that it currently costs a passenger 40-50 ped for a round trip, and that puts alot of people off. some might say thats good so CND/CP isnt overrun with noobs, but thats another debate. make flights cheaper and more people will fly, therefore higher turn over and less wating around for both pilot and passenger. Automatic ships just rewards the speculators.
 
i mean the decay/oil cost. the simple economics of flying is that it currently costs a passenger 40-50 ped for a round trip, and that puts alot of people off. some might say thats good so CND/CP isnt overrun with noobs, but thats another debate. make flights cheaper and more people will fly, therefore higher turn over and less wating around for both pilot and passenger. Automatic ships just rewards the speculators.

I don't get it :scratch2:. So assuming the lower the cost of flying for the pilots, there would still be the same amount of pilots being active, who will probably keep their profit margins the same so the net result is the same service for a lower price. Bad for MA (decay ship), good for consumers, no effect for pilots. Isn't the issue that there aren't enough active pilots though?

Automatic ships rewards the consumer (price will go down due to heavy competition), the hangar owners who can't be bothered flying up and down for minimal profit and MA (more flights = more decay). Combine automated ships with some kind of system that would still enable people who want to manually fly people up and down to generate a surplus profit and everyone is a winner. I'm thinking certain planets/destinations who need manual steering and can't be reached on autopilot, etc.
 
I don't get it :scratch2:. So assuming the lower the cost of flying for the pilots, there would still be the same amount of pilots being active...

im starting from the point of view that there is several problems, so there needs to be a blend of solutions. One key issue is that people arent using the pilots so they have to stand around waiting. speculators, as someone pointed out, aren't interested in $5/hr so are simply not bothering to fly. this also applies to many other owners who would rather do somthing else. but if you could turn around say 4 flights an hour, $20 an hour becomes a little less of a chore. by lowering costs of the flights, seats can be cheaper while still maintaining similar margins. there is no loser, even MA would gain from more over all decay. Note that i suggest this along side other solutions, not a fix on its own.

Automatic ships could help the consumer if it meant cheaper more frequent flights and would certainly help in finding a flight, but there are issues such as people not all using the same hanger and im not convinced all hanger owners would set prices low. However It would reward greatest those that have seen fit to inflate the price and create a risk free income generator. If MA is to change the system, it should not be to benefit such activities (if the system starts like that, such as LA, thats fair enough).

one thing is certain, the current system will not work with the prospective space travel and movements to other planets.
 
im starting from the point of view that there is several problems, so there needs to be a blend of solutions. One key issue is that people arent using the pilots so they have to stand around waiting. speculators, as someone pointed out, aren't interested in $5/hr so are simply not bothering to fly. this also applies to many other owners who would rather do somthing else. but if you could turn around say 4 flights an hour, $20 an hour becomes a little less of a chore. by lowering costs of the flights, seats can be cheaper while still maintaining similar margins. there is no loser, even MA would gain from more over all decay. Note that i suggest this along side other solutions, not a fix on its own.
I see what you mean, still I'm not convinced this will change much for the better though. You're assuming demand will go up a lot when prices go down. Maybe initially, but I think it will turn out the same as the situation is now. The demand is way too low to support to currently active pilots already, more people piloting is going to put more people who pilot off too (anyone wanna get in a 10 pilots pilotline and/or compete with 10 pilots in Twin/CND?). I think etto result would still be the same... the amount of pilots won't change much, consumers will have to pay less but still wait as long, and still no pilot services at quiet times. What needs to be addressed is a better spread in time of active pilots. An automated system of some sort would provide this. Btw, I'm not saying this should be the only system or anything, just that it would solve the main issue imo: people having to wait too long at quiet times to get where they want.

On a side note, 4 flights an hour even if demand is through the roof doesn't seem realistic to me, count on at least 30 mins to get everyone to your ship, get them seated, pay the fee etc etc.

Automatic ships could help the consumer if it meant cheaper more frequent flights and would certainly help in finding a flight, but there are issues such as people not all using the same hanger and im not convinced all hanger owners would set prices low. However It would reward greatest those that have seen fit to inflate the price and create a risk free income generator. If MA is to change the system, it should not be to benefit such activities (if the system starts like that, such as LA, thats fair enough).

If hangar owners don't set prices according to market, they won't get any people flying with them. It's not an issue.

I don't get your last point, who is inflating prices? And how would it reward these people greatest? There's going to be a lot of competition for consumers and hangars not near a TP will need to invest in teleporting services (when implented) to have any real chance at competing). LA had systems added too (event system) that weren't initually part of LA managment. I agree hangar owners would benifit from some sort of automated flying system, but wouldn't the consumer too? All winners.

You argue that a certain type of players don't deserve to be a winner in this situation, you're of course entitled to your sentiments but it's only that and won't bring us any closer to a solution (which ideally makes everyone a winner imo).
 
Look, i couldn't be fucked reading the whole thread. But honestly, i've flown once to cnd (yes i'm a mega n00b) i added the pilot to fl and they are almost ALWAYS on when i log. You say you and your friends didn't have any pilots on your fl. Then you should, i think. She was pricey but she got me where i wanted to go. And quickly. My two pecs.
 
I don't get your last point, who is inflating prices? And how would it reward these people greatest? There's going to be a lot of competition for consumers and hangars not near a TP will need to invest in teleporting services (when implented) to have any real chance at competing). LA had systems added too (event system) that weren't initually part of LA managment. I agree hangar owners would benifit from some sort of automated flying system, but wouldn't the consumer too? All winners.

You argue that a certain type of players don't deserve to be a winner in this situation, you're of course entitled to your sentiments but it's only that and won't bring us any closer to a solution (which ideally makes everyone a winner imo).

the situation we are in is due to the mechanics of the hangers and the business model that relied on the ownership/usage bug that was fixed. it wasnt so long ago owners flew a few trips and hangers where 20k, 30k, high but still reasonable ROI over a couple of years. people sussed that they could own the hanger and get 1k a month for not even doing the boring bit of actually flying. cue rampant price inflation, last time i checked they where offered for 120k. Rather than sell for a lower price (still probably for a profit) the speculator holds expecting MA to fix the situation in thier favor as basically they hold the community to ransom: they wont fly, so no else gets to. The system wasnt intended to support this scenario so its in a mess and a solution is needed. that solution shouldn't be one that unduly benefits those that have exploited a bug.

im not against a (semi)automated system per se, just would be sickend if it were the only fix, and would probably result in hangers increasing in value to LA levels overnight. Alongside a raft of other implementations, say individual ships or new hangers, some automation would certainly help. MA cant force existing owners to sell, but they can and should present new methods and oppurtunities to open out the market and make incumbant owners re-assess their ROI.
 
I think we came to a consensus, automation is a part of the solution and I'm sure some MA dev got something out of this thread if they read it :)
 
the situation we are in is due to the mechanics of the hangers and the business model that relied on the ownership/usage bug that was fixed. it wasnt so long ago owners flew a few trips and hangers where 20k, 30k, high but still reasonable ROI over a couple of years. people sussed that they could own the hanger and get 1k a month for not even doing the boring bit of actually flying. cue rampant price inflation, last time i checked they where offered for 120k. Rather than sell for a lower price (still probably for a profit) the speculator holds expecting MA to fix the situation in thier favor as basically they hold the community to ransom: they wont fly, so no else gets to. The system wasnt intended to support this scenario so its in a mess and a solution is needed. that solution shouldn't be one that unduly benefits those that have exploited a bug.

im not against a (semi)automated system per se, just would be sickend if it were the only fix, and would probably result in hangers increasing in value to LA levels overnight. Alongside a raft of other implementations, say individual ships or new hangers, some automation would certainly help. MA cant force existing owners to sell, but they can and should present new methods and oppurtunities to open out the market and make incumbant owners re-assess their ROI.

And you are assuming that prices ingame are tied to ROI? Since when has this been true?
 
i'd be absolutely amazed if any automation is introduced regarding hangars. The way MA will see it is that when the planets "open up" there is plenty of business for hangar owners. I do agree with the person in this thread that stated hangars and ships will become seperated in the future. i.e you may own the hangar but it doesn't come with a ship.
 
Aridash, I understand your sentiment with not wanting to benefit the speculators. But I think it is more important to create a system that works for everyone and have the capacity to work for many more customers than today, and also for many more destinations.

Also, how many hangar owners are just speculators? Are they really that many?
My guess it is most active pilots and to a greater degree old time buyers who use it for themselves and waiting to use it when new content appears.
 
I think that with expansion an automated shuttle system owned and run by MA will come into place, initally. Later pilots will be able to trade the same routes perhaps based on logged flight time to allow for experience and the ability to fly longer distances.

Personally, I would give my left nut to own a hangar!
 
Look, i couldn't be fucked reading the whole thread. But honestly, i've flown once to cnd (yes i'm a mega n00b) i added the pilot to fl and they are almost ALWAYS on when i log. You say you and your friends didn't have any pilots on your fl. Then you should, i think. She was pricey but she got me where i wanted to go. And quickly. My two pecs.

You obviously didn't even read all of the first post. The problem is that there are no pilots around during North America's evening (presumably they are mostly in Europe). The few times i've tried to fly after about 17:00 my time, i've had the same problem.

The real problem is that there aren't any alternatives. Most things in game now have multiple options, but getting to CP and CND still require a spaceship for five. I'm sure at some point there will be private runabouts and hopefully TP-like conveyances, but for now it's a pretty annoying situation.
 
Also, how many hangar owners are just speculators? Are they really that many?

It's not really a matter of speculators/total number of hangar owners; but speculators/hangars on market; and active hangar owners (taking flights)/total number of hangars.

As for prices, let's say they went up from 20k ped to 33k ped when CND was introduced; and from ~30k ped to 100k+ ped when hangars was rented out...

What's left to see now is that if hangars are going back to 30k ped (I kind of doubpt it - what if some of the recent hangar owners bought them by IRL bank loans?), or if the people with their assets "worth" >100k ped will hold on to them waiting for them to regain usability value; now when they can't cash in 100-500 ped/week by doing "nothing".
 
sorry if my whining started the great debate. ok, with that said, he's some additional thoughts on hangars.

i looked at buying a hangar once cause it seemed like a great way to make some money in game to fund gameplay build gear, etc. at the time i had about 700 bucks invested into eu, and buying one was menacing. i was not crazy enough yet to put lots of real life money into eu (that changed, but that's a whole nother story). hangars were about 30k at the time. i think i got offered one at blue zone for about 27k. this was early 2006, so cnd did exist and there were indeed two places to fly. i looked at selling everything i owned, putting in a little extra money and even sharing the hangar with a good friend that to this day is a good friend. our math showed that by busting our ass flying, in one year, we could return the 30k investment into a hangar. so in one year, we'd own a hangar free and clear and have our money out. so ROI was about one year with hard work.

since then two things happened. one, ppl buy land areas all the time for a 10% yearly ROI. yes, some do a bit better with good contesting, good location and good mobs. but everytime i see the university of stockholm, for example, pay 330k for a land area that returns about 3k usd a year. i shake my head. cause as long as ppl are willing to invest that much money to make about 10% a year. then that 30k hangar that could return 30k a year was way underpriced.

ofc, the land takes very little time to manage. a hangar makes nothing without adding your time to it. so hangar prices are truly reflective of ROI and the value someone puts on time. at the current prices the only ppl that play eu that can afford hangars most likely live in countries where a 3k usd per year return on their investment even at 10-12k usd is not worth the time to run the hangar properly to see the money returned.

thus, when hangars could be rented out on a bug, it was.

the only way i see this changing is when space opens up. it costs very little to fly to cp. it costs a bit more to fly to cnd. flying to a far off planet will most likely cost the pilot a lot more in decay of ship and oil, and thus tickets will be more. perhaps when regular flights to those far flung places exist, the ROI to a person paying 100k+ for a hangar to fly it will return.

but for now, renting a hangar is back to a spirit of trust. or, you just want one so bad you pay the big bucks for it. if a major change happens to the way we go from place to place in game, i.e. orbs, i could see current hangar owners selling their ships for pennies on the ped, so to speak, to get out of investments that just dried up.

but most ppl are never going to sell any virtual item for less than they paid. so if you fly regularly, until hangar owners entrust their deeds to really good friends to fly them or fly them themselves, i wouldn't look for the availability of flights to increase so much.

i'm actually quite shocked that i still pay 15-20 ped to fly, the same i did when the hangar cost 30k, that i do now that they are trading at 100-120k. i just figured when they hit 60k at one point that flights would start costing 30-40 ped each. and now days 50-100 ped each based on the amount of money needed to get into it. i suspect the problem for hangar owners is that their willingness to buy at inflated prices has not translated into an understanding public willing to fly at higher rates.

so that 30k yearly return for a 30k hangar looks dreadfully good to me now. but i would have sold that hangar when it hit 60k and just bought gear, tbh, which i suspect is why we have a lot of well geared former hangar owners in our midst at this time.

anyhoo, thanks for the info about cleetus. i normally fly with serica or bernz as i've said. and i've been offered a hangar to fly through the rigamaroo in this thread, so perhaps, just perhaps, you'll see me standing in twin selling tickets a bit here and there. i just won't be standing in any line, cause the line seems to have gone away.
 
the only way i see this changing is when space opens up. it costs very little to fly to cp. it costs a bit more to fly to cnd. flying to a far off planet will most likely cost the pilot a lot more in decay of ship and oil, and thus tickets will be more. perhaps when regular flights to those far flung places exist, the ROI to a person paying 100k+ for a hangar to fly it will return.

people dont pay 50ped round trip to CND, they are not going to pay more to go further. so without a new method of travel those new destinations will be empty, or rely on a seperate client loader starting them there, with the associated problems of that (and what ever happend to CND avatar spawns?). unless the hanger owners are looking at similar time frames and returns to the LA scenario, i think that they will be disappointed.
 
I have been standing in Twin now for about an hour, during the peak time for American players, on a Thursday, nothing uncommon about it really. And not only has there never been one pilot bounce in, but there are 3-4 of us begging for a flight. No one on my fl that flies regularly be they a cp hunter or a cnd miner has a pilot on fl.

ARE ALL HANGARS NOW OWNED BY PPL THAT SIMPLY BOUGHT HANGARS FOR THE PURPOSES OF SPECULATING ON HANGAR REAL ESTATE WITH THE EXPANSION INTO SPACE?

Or are some of you assholes still working?

Ok, thanks. /rant mode off

Just saw the thread now first time - but if there are really people actually buying hangars in hope the price will rise I personally think they will fail. I think the price of hangars will drop down (dramatically), just because the other planets will also have hangars and there will bee too much offer for too small market.

Didn't read the whole thread... quite too much for lunch break, but normally Ambulimoux should be lurking around at Twin if he isn't stuck (cause of no clients) at CND.
 
people dont pay 50ped round trip to CND, they are not going to pay more to go further. so without a new method of travel those new destinations will be empty, or rely on a seperate client loader starting them there, with the associated problems of that (and what ever happend to CND avatar spawns?). unless the hanger owners are looking at similar time frames and returns to the LA scenario, i think that they will be disappointed.

So you think that everyone is going to say, "Y'know, i don't want to go to this newly designed planet brimming with discoveries. And i'm also not bothered about going to space to battle pirates and other menacing foes!"?

Because we all know how good people here are at not jumping on band-wagons... <--- sarcasm of course.
Foot guards for a recent example:
"how dare you MA!" one moment, but as soon as they loot a pair, "I think i'll sell these for a really high mark-up and no longer complain, thanks MA, old buddy; old pal!"

Sorry, but in reality, people are far too thickle to actually go through with something like that. I guarentee you that if all pilots started charging 200 ped people would be outraged and say they would never fly again, and the next week, there they would be.
(And no, i'm not condoning rediculous prices. But if it costs xxx to get to new planets and certain locations in space, people will pay it. Your being naieve if you think otherwise.)

I don't know why your so cynicle regarding hangars and seemingly hostile towards owners who are "speculating" (i think the word you should be using is "investors" - thats what they actually are), but they bought it, they may do as they wish. PE was founded on capitalism (in it for the money), so why do you expect those with money to be communist (equality for the people)?
Am i condoning them? no. But i'm also not judging them either, and neither should you be.

The words "speculation" and "conjecture" come to mind, regarding your post... :rolleyes:

As i've said, discussing it doesn't solve anything, it just creates a new topic to argue about. And in the end, all that ever ultimately comes of it is more work for the mods here trying to wade through the endless tripe which these things carry.
 
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So you think that everyone is going to say, "Y'know, i don't want to go to this newly designed planet brimming with discoveries. And i'm also not bothered about going to space to battle pirates and other menacing foes!"?

yes, there will be people eager to fly to the new planets, probably the same group that currently go to CND. But thats only a minority of the EU population. Im not exaclty strapped for cash, but usually stay planet side rather spending the 50 ped hunting there than on a flight up (after a 1/2hr wait), i would suggest im representitive of the majority in this. And i have an apartment. yes, speculation and conjecture on my part, isnt it all? im not being down on space, im being pragmatic. sorry if you only like to hear one opinion.

look up the difference between "investors" and "speculators". Investors are in for long term gain, speculators are in it for short term greed: investors support economies, speculators ultimatly crash them (see all IRL stock crashes, ERM, Oil market, current banking crisis).
 
It's going to be long, so i'll break up your post, so that the separating boxes make it slightly less of an eyesore.


yes, there will be people eager to fly to the new planets, probably the same group that currently go to CND. But thats only a minority of the EU population.

I seriously doubt it. Perhaps after the dust settles, yes. But certainly not in the begining. The most likely outcome in the wake of post-release is a massive wave of people traveling to CND, the new planet and space.

I'de also like to point out that CND's visitors are hardly a small group by any means, as you seem to be trying to insinuate through your word choice. Remember that he earns around 15K/month at the last count.

Why CND and not CP? I'm sure new planets will hold even bigger creatures, and i'm sure ubers won't be shy about going there constantly for the challenge.

Im not exaclty strapped for cash, but usually stay planet side rather spending the 50 ped hunting there than on a flight up (after a 1/2hr wait), i would suggest im representitive of the majority in this.

It's more a case of many not being bothered about CND, rather than them not being able to afford it. Which is why my first point agrees with you long-term but not for the initial periods.
And your only addressing hunters. Miners far seem to prefer CND in my experience as a pilot. And who is to say that there won't be many, many new proffessions introduced which calypso does not possess which may be far more popular than our current list?

Your not a representative, everyone has their own reasons. We don't know the majorities circumstances.

And i have an apartment. yes, speculation and conjecture on my part, isnt it all? im not being down on space, im being pragmatic. sorry if you only like to hear one opinion.

Apartments and hangars are hardly comparitable. Hangars actually increase in value as history shows and are useful for things other than storage - most impostantly, apartments cost you 10ped/month, hangars can make you over 2Kped/month.
Apartments have been stagnant in value for years and are not rare at all. I've got one on Amethera and one on CND and they hold nothing similar to hangars aside from being structures.
Better to compare apartments to storage boxes. And as no other items are used for travel in the same way, only other hangars are a suitable comparisons for hangars.

I'm not against other opinions, as long as people realise that this is all it is, and that it has no real standing. But most don't, and feel that it is absolute because one of their friends agreed. Or even worse, when people hear one persons opinion and agree because they can't be bothered to actually look at the issue and really find a solution, spout it as if it were fact. Especially on forums is this the case. Most decide that the first answer they come across must be right.
A good example being this nonesense argument that more hangars are needed. This would have the reverse effect to what many here believe. Leafren attempted to point this out earlier in the thread, but as expected, it was to no avail.
But there is a blatantly simple reason it falls on deaf ears.
What people really want, if we were to cut the crap and be frank, is to have everything handed to us for free.

That's why you all moan about bad loots.
That's why you all moan about pilots charging - what you all make out to be - a vast fortune to fly.
That's why you want more hangars in the market and prices to drop - because you want to buy one and you want it cheap, in order to get ped.

In other words, when most say they want more hangars, what they really mean is, they're pissed off and jealous because they either missed the opportunity to get one while they were cheaper, or weren't a part of PE/EU at the time.

The very same bs is put towards most high-end merchandise, and the same attitude is displayed towards beta. Christ, that's so well accepted an attitude that ND and MA have it written in the description for their upcoming "Space Pirates!" event poster.

look up the difference between "investors" and "speculators". Investors are in for long term gain, speculators are in it for short term greed: investors support economies, speculators ultimatly crash them (see all IRL stock crashes, ERM, Oil market, current banking crisis).

I don't need to look up the difference. If you think about it logically, the ones who are technically in it for short term are the ones actually flying. Inflation is a long-term process, flying is a short-term quick fix gain - lower amount of course, but certainly short-term. The owners to whom you are referring, are in it for the long-term gain. This is why they have been sitting on them for years.
When was the last time you seen the likes of Skalman in twin selling tickets? - Because he owns one. Or are these people excused from the common argument? I never seem to hear their names in such discussions.

Personally i think that your all afraid to mention their names incase you offend them and are shunned by everyone. Which is rediculous, considering most of these players are nice people and wouldn't want to be seen in that way. (Of course, no-one will admit to being afraid and may even slander them out of protection of their pride when accused of such things, so my saying this should be considered my mind running as it is fruitless.)

Here in PE/EU we have a different name for speculators, "resellers".
The definitions are blurry anyway, since short-term investments are not uncommon at all. Infact if we're looking at the stockmarket, since you brought it up, the majority of investors are afraid of long-term and simply invest short-term in whatever meets their criteria for a good bet.

The housing market? The reasons go far beyond simple buy low and sell high.
Speculation also runs the market just as investment does.
I think you'll find that it is generally when investors and speculators combine and attempt a monopoly that trouble appears. It's not the work of speculators alone. This is why monopolisation is illegal and speculation is not.
(And in truth, monolopies would be fine if people weren't raised in this civilisation to be so greedy. Once competition is gone, you can charge more if you want. Obviously the other half of the reason is that it hampers free enterprise. But there are ways around that. There are no ways around the abuse by greed other than banning.)

All stock market crashes do not have the same cause. If they did, this pattern would have been spotted very quickly, and safeguards put in place.
Anyway, the stockmarket is only one outlet of the financial market.
More importantly, this isn't RL, and there is no stockmarket.

I would also like to point out that our economic system defies the RL systems in many ways. A good example of this is trading ores/enmatters in bulk. IRL the more, the cheaper. IPE/IEU the more, the dearer. The reason for this is that in PE/EU this save a large amount of time for the buyer searching for more, at the expense of the sellers time. - in a word, convenience. IRL this just doesn't happen. There are a multitude of reasons, but i'm not going to go through them as this post is too long as it is already, so i'll wrap it up here.

Once again, i'm not against hearing others opinions. However, these "discussions" serve for nothing but to push us apart.
We start our own wars.

As usual, sorry for the long and boring post.
Pheonyx
 
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just to address some misunderstanding and misqoting there...
I know CND generates alot of cash, but it is my contention that this comes from a smallish number of the overall player base. maybe im wrong, but it seems that way, i often hear people say they dont go into space and cost is often a factor for many not going. Other factors are big nasty mobs (so that covers CP by proxy) and lack of storage (my point about apartment had nothing to do with value). if this is the case then it follows that people arent going to go to Planet X for the same reasons. No, Ubers wont hesitate to go, along with those that do go to CND and CP, but will they be enough? thats the point.

I dont name specific people because it isnt necessary, it isnt about the individuals it about the practice and overall effect on the economy. Of course im gutted i missed them at 30k, or even more, but i certainly wouldnt have bought one at 100k to let it sit and not gain any income. there might well seem to be alot of hangers, but apparently there arent many actual pilots or flights. As for investments IRL, most is in pensions that are tucked away for 20-40 year time frames, very different from those market traders that play short-term game, typified by putting money in to instruments that are not directly productive in any way other than making more fiat money (ie they serve no practical, tangible purpose outside of the financial market).
 
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