Info: New exploit: pirate can fly next to you in invisible mode

[John B Knight]

Well, I'm pretty sure it was a L quad because I saw him near the space station at frst, he then flew the other way, then he caught up with me which is not possible if he's going at the same speed, he appeared out of nowhere and closed in fast, he was definitely flying way faster than I was in the same vehicle. I'm pretty sure that I know what I saw.

That being said, I will clean up my guestlist when I log back into the game. I did not know this at all, from how far away can you see a quad if you're on the guest-list? I got a ton of people there because I used to take the free BIG warp a alot and then I would offer free rides to the planet's surface to whoever needed one, it was always different people.

the H can be seen on the space map from everywhere in space, it wont show a name as L quads dont have names but it will give a good idea from where to where someone is going, also if someone is in team they could place a team target on you which can be very usefull to test distance in which direction to strafe to catch up to target. If you were flying from your dropped altitude by eyesight towards the other planets then you very likely were on a climbing diagonal course towards it, if whoever chased you made sure they had a straight course to planet above you and strafed down towards you same time they would have been considerably faster in the same type of l quad.

 

[SoberPhil]

the H can be seen on the space map from everywhere in space, it wont show a name as L quads dont have names but it will give a good idea from where to where someone is going, also if someone is in team they could place a team target on you which can be very usefull to test distance in which direction to strafe to catch up to target. If you were flying from your dropped altitude by eyesight towards the other planets then you very likely were on a climbing diagonal course towards it, if whoever chased you made sure they had a straight course to planet above you and strafed down towards you same time they would have been considerably faster in the same type of l quad.

That is some intresting insight, how far does the team tag reach? Is there a way to get rid of it other than logging off? As for the second part, I'm not sure I follow. I mean I'm no Sheldon Cooper but I know that if two projectiles are flying in the same direction at the same speed and one had a headstart, there's no way the second projectile can catch up with the first. One again, I saw the pirate at the space station and he flew in a different direction and disappeared from the screen, then he suddenly appears and is in firing range right away. He must have been flying faster in order to achieve that otherwise it's not possible.

 

[Crabby]

You could have passed on your insight about the effect of getting a pirates attention by changing altitude then rather than be faux sorry about what happened to OP here.

You got it right, I really don't care for what happened to him. Nor do I believe his story. The non fairy tale part of this story points to him being free loot. The pirate saw him change altitude, he knew whats up. This guy got caught slipping, plain and simple. And he wants us to believe there is a ghost roaming space? This guy has a history of acting like nothing is ever his fault.

Entropia Universe being a Real Cash Economy IS the reason why lootable PVP needs to exists.

I mean I like the idea of lootable pvp and think it should stay. However I don't think it being an RCE IS the reason why lootable HAS to exist.

Exactly, moreover, the idea of lootable PvP in space is illogical in the sense that it doesn't add anything to the game.

It is not illogical, what was once yours is now someone else's. You could do the same if you wanted to. It adds something to the game, the fact that you don't want to do it doesn't negate that.

They could also be using cheatengine to speed their quad up

No . EU along with any mmorpg I ever knew uses an authoritative server. If the client speed hacked on an authoritative server, he would experience stuttering in movement or snapping back into appropriate location. It wouldn't work. Weapon range would also be in effect as the server understands where the client actually is. With that in mind, even if the pirate was actually invisible... He wouldn't have been able to catch up unless OP was flying at a messed-up angle. It is easy to see what really happened.

OP was careless. Thats it.

 

[Alainax]

That is some intresting insight, how far does the team tag reach? Is there a way to get rid of it other than logging off? As for the second part, I'm not sure I follow. I mean I'm no Sheldon Cooper but I know that if two projectiles are flying in the same direction at the same speed and one had a headstart, there's no way the second projectile can catch up with the first. One again, I saw the pirate at the space station and he flew in a different direction and disappeared from the screen, then he suddenly appears and is in firing range right away. He must have been flying faster in order to achieve that otherwise it's not possible.

Do you have your align horizontal button mapped? Were you tracking your z coord? When did you aim to the planet?

You said you flew up to 1k au, then to the planet. Space being a big cube, he could have easily intercepted you by cutting the diagonal line. There was a graph somewhere hear years ago showing how easy it was to intercept those not 100% aligned and changing z coords.

Even if you didnt fly directly 1k up, but on a trajectory of to be at 1k up before the pvp border, he could still have caught you by predicting that you were going up, and him going at a differnt angle but where the two line would intercept. Hence how it looked like he wasn't even there until the two trajectories intercepted.

Not sticking up for the pirate, just pointing out that its very easy to be caught out this way particularly if your line is predictable/ he can see your H.

If he was totally invisible and shooting at you, then yes absolutely thats an exploit and needs reported. Him catching you on a Z coord trajectory, is pretty common. ( then add in all the other ways they can go faster with other movements etc)

 

[AnosVoldigoad]

sounds like a skill issue

 

[SoberPhil]

Do you have your align horizontal button mapped? Were you tracking your z coord? When did you aim to the planet?

You said you flew up to 1k au, then to the planet. Space being a big cube, he could have easily intercepted you by cutting the diagonal line. There was a graph somewhere hear years ago showing how easy it was to intercept those not 100% aligned and changing z coords.

Even if you didnt fly directly 1k up, but on a trajectory of to be at 1k up before the pvp border, he could still have caught you by predicting that you were going up, and him going at a differnt angle but where the two line would intercept. Hence how it looked like he wasn't even there until the two trajectories intercepted.

Not sticking up for the pirate, just pointing out that its very easy to be caught out this way particularly if your line is predictable/ he can see your H.

If he was totally invisible and shooting at you, then yes absolutely thats an exploit and needs reported. Him catching you on a Z coord trajectory, is pretty common. ( then add in all the other ways they can go faster with other movements etc)

I was flying east and up while he appeared to be going elsewhere when leaving the space station area, his arrow reappeared the moment I hit lootable space and he starts shooting, at that point I was still climbing up and going east, I did not take a pitstop on the way, was just flying east and climbing up, initially we were at the same altitude. So the pirate knew my location at all times and was following me without being visible on the screen, maybe he used a team-tag as JBK suggested, but how far does that reach I've no idea, does it help increase visibility in space beyond the regular limit? This I don't know, what I do know is he was most definitely faster than me.

 

[Alainax]

I was flying east and up while he appeared to be going elsewhere when leaving the space station area, his arrow reappeared the moment I hit lootable space and he starts shooting, at that point I was still climbing up and going east, I did not take a pitstop on the way, was just flying east and climbing up, initially we were at the same altitude. So the pirate knew my location at all times and was following me without being visible on the screen, maybe he used a team-tag as JBK suggested, but how far does that reach I've no idea, does it help increase visibility in space beyond the regular limit? This I don't know, what I do know is he was most definitely faster than me.

Ive got some graphs and things which show better what I am trying to explain, I dont mind taking this to pm as really wouldn't want to teach wannabe pirates how to use intercept lines ( regardless if you never stopped) as a way to catch someone who is not horizontally aligned.

 

[SoberPhil]

Ive got some graphs and things which show better what I am trying to explain, I dont mind taking this to pm as really wouldn't want to teach wannabe pirates how to use intercept lines ( regardless if you never stopped) as a way to catch someone who is not horizontally aligned.

You get aligned by pressing alt, it's the default key for it, is that what you mean, if so, then I always fly straight.

 

[John B Knight]

the teamtarget is a shortrange guidance, but it reaches slightly further then your visible range in space allowing to follow 'invisible'.
as pointed out by bonnie, the crux here is to explain it too well also enables those who may not use all speed vectors yet

 

[SoberPhil]

the teamtarget is a shortrange guidance, but it reaches slightly further then your visible range in space allowing to follow 'invisible'.

This might explain some of it at least to me, thanks again for the insight. This also makes team tagging in space sort of an exploit, doesn't it? Because it allows to increase visibility more than it is intended. Bonnie kindly offered to explain things further in PMs, I might follow her up on that offer later on but I'm certain the guy was cheating, it's also worth noting that he was caught cheating before in lootable planetside areas, so there's a pattern.

Most importantly, I got a reply from support and it wasn't a straight up dismissal. They promised to investigate the issue: "Please rest assured that we will further investigate this issue and we will keep their behavior under close observation. It is regrettable that some people are just out to ruin the Entropia Universe experience for others." That's the reply I got and it sounds promising.

 

[DavinFelth]

don't carry lootable items while traveling in space. Its a hard lesson learned, I know. If you must travel with items, hire a safe warp. Pirates use 3d party apps to lock onto your ship. this may be the case why he was invisible, but nonetheless the only safe way to travel in space is when you are flying yourself, don't carry lootable items, or hire a safe warp.

Support will always blame you, not the pirate.

way to blame the victim. we shouldn't just accept that support will blame him. But that's the easy way out and I don't expect MA to do actual work to fix an exploit. I think you are highlighting what the person can do about it and the facts in front of us, but let's please give the neg rep to who it is due = the pirate

 

[Crabby]

way to blame the victim. we shouldn't just accept that support will blame him. But that's the easy way out and I don't expect MA to do actual work to fix an exploit.

Both of you are cut from the same cloth. You're just to a whole other level in regard to complaining. Everything action, or lack of action, is not your fault. Got it. Like you, he can repeat the same decisions and be surprised he's met with the same result.

 

[rvbarton]

way to blame the victim. we shouldn't just accept that support will blame him. But that's the easy way out and I don't expect MA to do actual work to fix an exploit. I think you are highlighting what the person can do about it and the facts in front of us, but let's please give the neg rep to who it is due = the pirate

You choose to play this game. If you don't like the way it's working, stop playing. Its as simple as that.

 

[Alainax]

You get aligned by pressing alt, it's the default key for it, is that what you mean, if so, then I always fly straight.

Alt moves the camera, it does not align the ship. This is what the ship alignement button looks like. ( again just coming from a place of trying to help you)

 

[The Abomb]

Lootable space PvP has been a black mark on this game stunting it's growth for long enough. Noboby wants it that is why no games do it. MA needs to just remove it all so the game can grow.

There are ZERO successful hardcore PvP games where you lose your loot for a reason. We need to develop space and draw in new players instead of driving them away.

If nothing changes then nothing changes. It's like MA just doesn't want new players or the game to flourish. Lootable PvP is bad for ANY MMO especially a Real cash economy.

 

[The Great Adventurer]

Lootable space PvP has been a black mark on this game stunting it's growth for long enough. Noboby wants it that is why no games do it. MA needs to just remove it all so the game can grow.

There are ZERO successful hardcore PvP games where you lose your loot for a reason. We need to develop space and draw in new players instead of driving them away.

If nothing changes then nothing changes. It's like MA just doesn't want new players or the game to flourish.

Being Realistic is the most traveled road to Mediocrity.

 

[Crabby]

Lootable space PvP has been a black mark on this game stunting it's growth for long enough. Noboby wants it that is why no games do it. MA needs to just remove it all so the game can grow.

Every MMORPG I played has lootable pvp, and unlike here, you will lose your gear too if you get killed. No one is shying away from those games because of it. Its the opposite, people will leave because they neglect to develop that aspect of the game. So i'm not sure about what youre making up there. If you can't stomach the possibility of getting looted, don't go in with loot.

I've never been looted. Occasionally I kill a pirate and get what I'd imagine they were too lazy to go and store away. Or maybe they just sat with it confidently because no one is really trying to kill them. I bet a lot of people who are caught slipping don't even shoot back. Hell even if I don't have loot I will still shoot back, that small amount of ped to me is worth the practice.

 

[Gopher]

Every MMORPG I played has lootable pvp, and unlike here, you will lose your gear too if you get killed. No one is shying away from those games because of it. Its the opposite, people will leave because they neglect to develop that aspect of the game. So i'm not sure about what youre making up there. If you can't stomach the possibility of getting looted, don't go in with loot.

I've never been looted. Occasionally I kill a pirate and get what I'd imagine they were too lazy to go and store away. Or maybe they just sat with it confidently because no one is really trying to kill them. I bet a lot of people who are caught slipping don't even shoot back. Hell even if I don't have loot I will still shoot back, that small amount of ped to me is worth the practice.

Are those MMORPG's RCE? No, they aren't, so the item's only value are time and rarity. RCE is much more complex. The big mmorpgs don't FORCE you to go into the lootable pvp to access content. Yes, you might be able to farm items/consumables faster in those areas due to the risk, but theres not really any content gated behind it. In this game, there are a bunch of planets that you literally can't get to without entering lootable pvp. This is the only MMORPG I have EVER played that forces the player into traveling through lootable pvp to get to content, and I have played pretty much every single MMORPG that has a non-dead playerbase and isnt complete dogshit. Especially since this is an RCE and items have actual real world value, you can probably see what im getting at.



MA did shoot themselves in the foot by selling the motherships/privateers since if they remove the lootable pvp, it fucks over the people who paid a shit ton for those ships. IMO, the best solution would be to allow players to get to other planets without going into lootable pvp, but it should take way longer since you would have to go around rather than just cut through. They should also make new space mobs that are exclusive to lootable pvp and make them drop rare stackable loot more often than regular mobs/maybe even exclusive loot due to the increased risk of you needing to be in lootable pvp to kill those mobs. This solution still makes warps viable to save time AND it provides a great way for the people who invested in big ships to actually do stuff in space with them besides warping and repair runs.

 

[The Great Adventurer]

Especially since this is an RCE and items have actual real world value

They technically dont though as its actually a pseudo-RCE. You dont own anything in your account, not even the PED on your card.

We all appreciate MindArk honoring withdraws though!

My apologies for not being explicit about that in earlier posts.

 

[The Abomb]

Every MMORPG I played has lootable pvp

Very wrong. MMORPG are PvE centric and that is what brings in the players.

No one is shying away from those games because of it.

Extremely Wrong. This has been tried and proven on why MMO's don't have "hardcore" PvP because it's not a successful model. It drives players away. These are facts.

So i'm not sure about what youre making up there. If you can't stomach the possibility of getting looted, don't go in with loot.

Or you can not have a horrible mechanic in the game that has continuously hurt this game from becoming more popular and making MA more money. There is no reason for PvP to get in the way of having a better game because an extreme minority like "hardcore lootable" PvP. These players rather see the game die and are a toxic cancer that is counter productive to the games health or ANY games health.

I've never been looted.

Good for you others have and it's cause players to leave and never join because it's created bad word of mouth to not play this game. Lootable space hurts PP's and the games overall revenue. This game would of been a lot bigger if lootable space never happened. Maybe MA will learn some day what is common knowledge in game design.

 

[Sulje]

Very wrong. MMORPG are PvE centric and that is what brings in the players.



Extremely Wrong. This has been tried and proven on why MMO's don't have "hardcore" PvP because it's not a successful model. It drives players away. These are facts.

Or you can not have a horrible mechanic in the game that has continuously hurt this game from becoming more popular and making MA more money. There is no reason for PvP to get in the way of having a better game because an extreme minority like "hardcore lootable" PvP. These players rather see the game die and are a toxic cancer that is counter productive to the games health or ANY games health.



Good for you others have and it's cause players to leave and never join because it's created bad word of mouth to not play this game. Lootable space hurts PP's and the games overall revenue. This game would of been a lot bigger if lootable space never happened. Maybe MA will learn some day what is common knowledge in game design.

It's always a fact if someone said it on youtube.

 

[The Abomb]

It's always a fact if someone said it on youtube.

It's a fact when there is mountains of evidence proving it. Sigh

There will never be a successful harcore lootable PvP game. Ever! Trying to do so is just hurting the game and driving away the potential players. This is why MMORPG game designers don't include lootable PvP in their games.

 

[Mika]

The game has no anticheat. There is no automated cheat detection.


Do these things occuring really suprise anyone?

Also imagine a RCE where people are expected to pour in thousands of dollars and invest with 0 security. And even a basic Anticheat is not in place. That should be a bigger worry than people actually using cheats, whos to say about all the people you don't know about.

I aint gonna point fingers but, just let the first sentance there sink in for a moment

 

[Sulje]

It's a fact when there is mountains of evidence proving it. Sigh

There will never be a successful harcore lootable PvP game. Ever! Trying to do so is just hurting the game and driving away the potential players.

Exactly, if someone said it on youtube it's a fact 100% no need to doubt anything he says.

There is no point of skilling if there is no real PVP. If you don't like it, you don't have to go to pvp, it's a small area in the universe where nobody forces you to go to.

In space you can also avoid being looted by paying as low as 5 peds for shared warps.

Space pvp needs upgrades, as I've suggested before, I will suggest again: make space toxic shot that will cost 100-1000 peds, and let's see who will pirate again. Also make the quad guns level requirement of 150+ so no new avatar can operate it efficiently, considering mostly alts are pirating.

 

[The Abomb]

There is no point of skilling if there is no real PVP

Over 90% of players that play MMORPGs have no desire to PvP. There are plenty of reasons to play, skill and enjoy MMOs. With that said I do enjoy PvP in other games. I just still realize every game I PvP in that it's still a PvE game and most players are playing for PvE.

In space you can also avoid being looted by paying as low as 5 peds for shared warps.

Or you could just make planet to planet TP's cost 7 ped. Watch player activity and new player count go up.

Space pvp needs upgrades,

I have said it would be cool for large space battles and having Land grabs. However there is no place for lootable PvP.

I will suggest again: make space toxic shot that will cost 100-1000 peds, and let's see who will pirate

If you want the game to die. Better idea... NO PIRATES!!! That way people want to play the game. I'd love for the player population to grow. MA has made some steps in the right direction removing most of Lootable PvP in space. However they need to get rid of ALL of it. Make space better and faster travel for everyone. Create unique space stations, space malls instead of it being empty waste of time.

 

[Hego Damask]

Lootable space PvP has been a black mark on this game stunting it's growth for long enough. Noboby wants it that is why no games do it. MA needs to just remove it all so the game can grow.

There are ZERO successful hardcore PvP games where you lose your loot for a reason. We need to develop space and draw in new players instead of driving them away.

If nothing changes then nothing changes. It's like MA just doesn't want new players or the game to flourish. Lootable PvP is bad for ANY MMO especially a Real cash economy.

Yeah, what is next than?
I belive more player leaves because of return related reasons than because of lootable PVP.
Make everybody get back 101% tt next or what?

You have barely any reason to go to lootable pvp on planetside. What is there at planetside what you cant find out of lootable pvp? 1-2 mobs that periodically spawn on non lootable too during events? 1-2 mission mob maybe like divine mobs for chip or the daily token boss.
Nothing that makes a non pvp focused player to must go there.

Space, you either fly around in quad without loot, or deserve to be looted.
A new player entering space gets minimum 3 notification about lootable space near before entering lootable space.

There are many warp service offers available all day currently if you hurry, or if your needs not include to travel around all the planets every 2nd day, Normandie multipass can solve your travel needs for almost free.

 

[Mika]

There are many warp service offers available all day currently if you hurry, or if your needs not include to travel around all the planets every 2nd day, Normandie multipass can solve your travel needs for almost free.

Warps are not a guarantee for safety. It is not long ago when warping you had to litterally be told to log off because of pirates. and many did not even do warps because of it. ( i say not long ago but it was last autumn iirc and that is almost a year ago now since,, time is weird)


Non lootable space would however:

- Open a whole new section of the game to be fully, freely explored by everyone at free will just like the rest of the game.
- Open the possibility for a whole new market ofitems in several categories.
- Open up the possibility to do things such as but not limited to;
- Space Mining
- Space hunting
- Crafters making items for space ships (armor weapons, spaceships themselves, engines, other attachements to utilize the above two ways of playing)
- in general cause a lot less annoyance for the vast majority of the player base regardless of how you twist and turn it.
- We have robot beacons on caly, and other instances, what about.... abandoned asteroids!? or Space stations floating around. or abandoned derelict motherships you enter and explore for things....

While some of those activities work now too, one global and you are gonna be 180hbpm sweating gallons as you know every half abled space giveafucker knows just about your exact location and is on their way to just get some free simple drops. And as to the prior line, no anticheatmeans that while most of us are not cheating bastards, we dont have a map, we have static. I'm sure you can piece the bits together here.

I'm not sure why people are so much against the notion of the game progressing in a healthy manner in the bigger picture when it comes to space. but i guess some people really are affraid of losing their right to be afk 24/7 in a ship they spent god knows how much on only to not even know that their service is still not 100% safe when they do get a ringading to be a litteral mule. That, is definately peak gameplay right?

But all things of that aside space, really should just have a godamn map, and marked lootable pvp zones, that would also solve a lot of issues. letting people fly snakearound to avoid the places of asshatery. While "SpAcE MapS ExIst oNliNE" You still have to shove a finger up your ass and guess where the lines are as you can't bloody see them without cheating ingame.

 

[John B Knight]

Warps are not a guarantee for safety. It is not long ago when warping you had to litterally be told to log off because of pirates. and many did not even do warps because of it. ( i say not long ago but it was last autumn iirc and that is almost a year ago now since,, time is weird)

Normandie has been transporting all of its passengers secure since start of service in 2011 on well over 30k warps performed (100% of passengers transported secure) and our passengers (several thousand individual avatars over the course of this timespan) travel online, we never ran an offline service. It is true that most services need to make you log off , that doesnt mean all have to.

 

[Hego Damask]

Warps are not a guarantee for safety. It is not long ago when warping you had to litterally be told to log off because of pirates. and many did not even do warps because of it. ( i say not long ago but it was last autumn iirc and that is almost a year ago now since,, time is weird)

Warps are safer than leaving my home for go to work.
If offline warp not safe enough, choose your starter planet wisely.

 

[Mika]

Normandie has been transporting all of its passengers secure since start of service in 2011 on well over 30k warps performed (100% of passengers transported secure) and our passengers (several thousand individual avatars over the course of this timespan) travel online, we never ran an offline service. It is true that most services need to make you log off , that doesnt mean all have to.

its not required no but there was a period where regardless of where when or how when taking a warp with anyone i at least did, I was told to log off and watch the disco for arrival before logging on.

But the fact that one should even need to do so is a different can of worms. I simply pointed out that due to piracy for a brief time here and there, as well as on other times in the past or in general wanting to or not it is the only way to actually be as safe as possible.

And i still think the bare minimum would be to just have a normal map in space. and trim lootable zones so that it is possible to fully circumvent them with normal flying if you can. Because even if i speak harshly about how ass space is i do like the idea of it, and i often do find it "fun" to just fly around myself to here i need to go.

But id like it more even if it would mean a longer flight time, if i could that flying a route i could just avoid it alltogether. and correct me if i'm wrong but at the moment there are currently no possible routes that avoid lootble spaces in space, at least looking at all the maps i know of that show this.

Warps are safer than leaving my home for go to work.
If offline warp not safe enough, choose your starter planet wisely.

Swimming with sharks is also safer than standing near a herd of cows