The Limited Debate

[RickEngland]

I asked myself a question today

Did it hurt?

Yes it did....lol

Whilst hunting Prots with my limited LC-60, I asked myself "why am I running this L stuff". Why don't I want an unlimited anymore, and why does my desire for an unlimited drop by the day.

The next question I asked was what really is the long term benefit of basically having no assets, nothing of any real value to sell or gain or lose in value.

And the third question was, if I did own a lot on unlimited "how would I feel".

My final question was; What made EU great and full of avatars 6 years ago.

This is how I answered myself.

I run Limited because MA wanted me too, it's the only way to be 10/10 hit ability (at Level 70's)
I still have the MKII justifier (basic version), I had before L came in, it's been in store not used for years.

Then I asked myself, if we didn't have L, would there be a thriving market, and literally millions of peds flowing into MA for trades.

Would more players have stayed or want to drive their hunting career more "now" if they had assets worth fighting for.

I find myself hunting 'only' for skills, and not personal wealth, and also have little faith in trying to obtain any wealth because I can't see it providing more of a stronger fighting position than the L guns I use.

So here is what I was thinking:
What if there was a server (area) that could only be hunted with non-limited, some super mobs that people who have obtained the skill can hunt and 'justify' the values of their unlimited weapons. Say these mobs drop special items, to make those who can't hunt in that place to think about asset purchase.

Would that drive more people content with L, to desire more?

And this is the biggest issue.....desire. Is L simply enough to retain or does the player psyche want more from this world, or could MA do more to make players want more.

The biggest issue with me with L, is in all honesty is I can take it or leave it. MA removed my need for commitment.

Anyhow I thought worthy of discussion.

Rick

I'm not looking for anything, just trying to understand what motivates me, and what could motivate me more.

 

[narfi]

imo the game needs both, and players want/need the option to choose.
Will be interesting to see how prices change with the crap ton of UL gear thats dropped this summer, or if there are enough new players skilling up through the ranks to justify that much new stuff.

If you want commitment there is plenty of UL to go around and cheaper than ever.
When I buy UL gear, I buy it with commitment in mind, I don't buy it with resale in mind. (you cant have your cake and eat it too)

My armor is worth 1/2 what it was when i bought it, and I am fine with that because I bought it to use.
Same with the weapons I buy, I buy them to use.
Same with the finders/extractors I bought, I bought them to use.
Same with any other UL tools I buy....

If the price on all that stuff is cut in 1/2 overnight, it really doesn't effect me, because I still have what I bought.

Of course we have to pay attention to markets and values, but when you get down to it, thats my approach to it, and I think that is why I can continue to enjoy the process regardless of what happens.

 

[RickEngland]

imo the game needs both, and players want/need the option to choose.

If you want commitment there is plenty of UL to go around and cheaper than ever.

My armor is worth 1/2 what it was when i bought it, and I am fine with that because I bought it to use.

If the price on all that stuff is cut in 1/2 overnight, it really doesn't effect me, because I still have what I bought.

Interesting that you focus on 'choice'. Is choice enough?
Maybe MA did their calcs and said without choice people would leave.
I guess what I was trying to say was if my only choice to be able to loot unlimited shadow was to use an unlimited gun...would I invest?

I buy brand new cars in RL that lose money, so it would be hard for me to say I don't agree with buying unlimited virtual items that lose money. Although given the 'choice', which you quite rightly say I have got, I would rather choice not to lose virtual wealth and run limited.

Head all over the place thinking. Maybe MA are attempting to find a balance to suit all.
But maybe...just maybe...MA can make choice more appealing for their own benefit, and drive the game in more than two directions.

Rick

 

[Few Scars]

It's hard to justify the prices on UL gear at the moment when the values drop like lead balloons very VU. Only Lootius knows what MA will do this VU that will screw the value up on some item in game. I sold my UL Eon a while ago, have been using Perseus L ever since and to be honest I love it.
The UL guns do rock, and it is nice to tier them up and keep the tier.

In terms of rewarding those who deposit and put money in the game, I think this is a business model MA needs to look at seriously. Maybe you should get tokens for every $100 deposited. These tokens can be traded or used to buy high end items from a broker as a reward for putting money in game and supporting the capital economy.

 

[sawachika]

Interesting that you focus on 'choice'. Is choice enough?
Maybe MA did their calcs and said without choice people would leave.
I guess what I was trying to say was if my only choice to be able to loot unlimited shadow was to use an unlimited gun...would I invest?

I buy brand new cars in RL that lose money, so it would be hard for me to say I don't agree with buying unlimited virtual items that lose money. Although given the 'choice', which you quite rightly say I have got, I would rather choice not to lose virtual wealth and run limited.

Head all over the place thinking. Maybe MA are attempting to find a balance to suit all.
But maybe...just maybe...MA can make choice more appealing for their own benefit, and drive the game in more than two directions.

Rick

You know...you've brought up an interesting question...what if the whole world of EU was made Limited instead?

I've always wondered about that....

Would it be possible for MA to have survived making such an RCE game instead? Let's say...everything is at what we have at this moment in EU, but TT returns set at 95%, crafting COS at 90% or 95% maxed (basically at the rate we are seeing on the BP).

Except, everything runs at (L) state....hunter's loot + miner's loot -> crafter -> pumps out the limited items to satisfy the demand.

Kind of like what I've mentioned in this thread earlier:
https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/forums/showthread.php?244905-Discussion-Some-random-ideas

Ideally, would this sort of system work? (For the crafting, hunting and mining interdependence...)

And then basically, MA only takes 5% of our expenditure in-game as costs to supplement their expenditure while the whole bulk of their functioning is sustained via "reinvesting" our deposited cash into actual "financial vehicles" irl (kindda like how a bank makes money via our deposited cash in the bank?).

Oh and perhaps removed the gambling element from the game?

Would that lower our costs to play this game and thus increase/attract more people into playing EU?

I mean logically-speaking, shouldn't a game be made such that it interests people into playing the game often, rather than being a put-off and making people not want to play?

TBH, most of the time, I end up logging into the game wondering what I should be doing today and then....end up logging out immediately after I've logged in....thinking, nah...I should save up my peds for another day instead. Lol...if you get what I mean.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

IMO, L items make crafting a profession viable and crafting drives the game economy. Without crafting, most hunting/mining loot has no MU due to lack of demand. I wasn't around before the introduction of L gear but I wonder how it managed to survive without it. I do love my UNL gear though and I recognise the benefits of using it. Once I reach lvl 70 (next year?) I'll take a serious look at the non-SIB weapons to see if any are viable from a dpp perspective.

I don't see any value in UNL gear as a growth investment. It can offer improved gameplay, better efficiency over the long term.

I'm on board with offering genuine gameplay choices and having a mix of L and UNL gear is the way to do it. I'm very much opposed to trying to restrict gameplay choices of others, eg. a unl only area. Choose the way you want to play and let other people do the same.

Regards,
KikkiJikki

 

[OZtwo]

What I'm finding interesting is that it seems as if MA is trying to move away from the RCE model here. I have a feeling that we will see more and more limited items since limited items will decay to nothing and have no value where UL items will have value that at some point MA will have to pay back to the owner if they ever want to sale.

Yes, UL items are going to shit now and for this MA is happy to see since UL items will soon be as limited items with no value. And with MA starting to introduces items that are UL but have no value. We soon most likely will see more of this. The question is, is this good or bad.

Yes, crafters, it may be good for you in the short run but it is good for all. Players will have to stop and search for items to buy with limited items and soon get tired searching whereas with UL items, the player just needs to repair and back to hunting they go. So it's unclear were it stands, but it makes the most sense that MA is going this route.

 

[KijkkiJikki]

I don't think I have the energy to go over the old ground of why L weapons are a viable choice for hunters. I'm just going to assert that for hunters that care about efficiency, L SIB weapons - at the right MU - are very effective. I totally understand that it can sometimes be tough to get the weapon you want at the price you want at the time you want. The key is to plan ahead, to understand the characteristics (dpp, dps, range,speed) you are looking for and do some math and make a sensible choice from what is available. This is tougher with looted weapons but generally, popular crafted weapons are available for a competitive MU.

Meanwhile good UNL weapons remain good, and if you are prepared to tie up the ped that u may not ever recover, then they can be a great choice. I have some and use them a lot. But they don't contribute to the overall economy since I only pay MA to repair them.

 

[narfi]

I buy brand new cars in RL that lose money, so it would be hard for me to say I don't agree with buying unlimited virtual items that lose money.

Such a great analogy.

In RL you can buy a new car (or even a used car) and the longer you have it and use it the less resale value it will likely have. (with the obvious exceptions of collection quality/eras)

In RL you can (L)ease a car and once you have driven it for a couple of years and the lease is used up you have nothing, and need to go out and (L)ease another.

The eco minded will buy a car even though it means they may not always be driving the newest and greatest while the person who can afford the status will be more likely to (L)ease the newest each year.

Interestingly enough while (L)easing may not be eco and can be viewed as a 'status' approach, it can also be seen by those who are low on liquid cash or poor at budgeting as the 'cheapest' option for right now.

 

[das]

Interestingly enough while (L)easing may not be eco and can be viewed as a 'status' approach, it can also be seen by those who are low on liquid cash or poor at budgeting as the 'cheapest' option for right now.

Depends on what you skilled & hunt..
For example, i'm +100 laser dmg & pistoleer & I have like the 4th best ul gun in that series (i287), after the mm sga, mm & i287 sga..
A lvl 50 player these days does more dmg with an L gun then I can do with my I2870.
In some cases it just makes more sense for me to pick up a redeemer at 102.5% depending on my defense cost

 

[aridash]

trouble with L is, next VU your favorite weapon could stop dropping, or the key ingredient to craft them. so far MA has chosen to flood the game with L, but then they flooded the game with unL before that. what will they do in 6, 12, 18 months to suit them and the balance? at least with unL you have some certainty, aside from valuations, you can log on and go hunt. also the eco is equalised out or at least minimised in markup (some setups would cost more).

someone above said they are going away from RCE, i've never thought of it like that but its a good point. i recall sizing up if i should spend x on an unL gun or so many L weapons. those L weapons would last me a couple of months at the time, then i'd have nothing. even a 50% price crash would still leave me with half of x. the advantage of L is when you need a temporay boost or want to specialise for a short period, say an event. otherwise its to MA advantage.

 

[billairboy]

Did not MA made it a bit easier to use UL weapons a year ago or something like that? We got better minimum hit and damage ability, and made more UL weapons useful even if you don't max them. It think the solution could be the take it a step further change the damage and hit formula a bit lower the penalty for not maxing the weapons on UL weapons. The could also add some extra benefits, like a higher chance to do critical hits with UL weapons. With more difference between UL/L the choice will not only be based on the cost/damage formula, but other factors will also have effect the choice. Already the tearing system benefits the use of UL weapons.

Make the UL weapons more attractive, but at the same time the could add something like "Weapon Repair Material" that are crafted and must be used when repairing the weapons. When you repair you must add 25 % tt value from this WRM and 75 % are from the normal tt peds. That way the craters still get something to craft that the hunters need.

With a bit of creativity the UL/L situation could be more balanced and offer us more alternative.

 

[das]

Did not MA made it a bit easier to use UL weapons a year ago or something like that? We got better minimum hit and damage ability, and made more UL weapons useful even if you don't max them.

This is only for players who don't max their UL.
For lvl 100 players maxed is still maxed & nothing changes.
Even the small extra range for being over max they took away a long time ago (when tiering was introduced)

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

I run Limited because MA wanted me too, it's the only way to be 10/10 hit ability (at Level 70's)
I still have the MKII justifier (basic version), I had before L came in, it's been in store not used for years.

Comon Rick, do you really think so?

Ah yes... you said that you will never pay more than 5000 PEd for any item in EU...
But this is not a reason to misrepresent facts.

THERE ARE ways to be 10/10 at levels lower than 100 - this is something called Unlimited SIB.

Do you know how much MU you 'lost' in L gear last year (or any other time period)?
When I'm back on my other PC I can check how much I saved by using UNL SIB instead of L.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Make the UL weapons more attractive, but at the same time the could add something like "Weapon Repair Material" that are crafted and must be used when repairing the weapons. When you repair you must add 25 % tt value from this WRM and 75 % are from the normal tt peds. That way the craters still get something to craft that the hunters need.

Terrible idea, it would kill game....
People paid high PED for UNL gear to be able to throw weapon in repair terminal and not being forced to pay MU to crafters...
I hope MA is not reading this thread

 

[PaulCrystal]

The only difference is that with L stuff you support a Crafter/Hunter and MA, the Crafter/Hunter gets the MU and can craft other things, MA gets the cut it always gets.

With an unmaxed UL weapon you support only MA, as your Hit ability is lower you leak more peds this way.

At about lvl 70 there is absolutely no difference for the hunter one way or the other, UL gear is just much more convenient.

As narfi said - get the gear if you want to play the game, want to invest less? go with L stuff.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Terrible idea, it would kill game....
People paid high PED for UNL gear to be able to throw weapon in repair terminal and not being forced to pay MU to crafters...
I hope MA is not reading this thread

It may sound terrible but may not be so bad for the game as a whole. Something like that could phase out L altogether. Could have a few niche weapons I suppose that can be used in repair terminal as now without any additional extras.

I've also been using L recently but find availability of gun that I want a problem. L weapons are of no benefit to most players or MA so I think a case can be made for their removal. If they are removed it would affect people like kikkijikki who craft L weapons which is why something like adding a crafted material for repair would be useful. The solution tries to accomodate everyone, it would be bad to leave crafters in a terrible situation.

 

[Fiona Simmons]

The limited stuff keep Entropia alive, if i had all gear UL i would never spend another ped at the market only for repairs and ammo from the TT. I used to play exactly this way before limited gear was introduced. Once i had my gun, my swords, armor and my amp i was happy and ignored the ah expect selling my loots. Limited gear lowerd the cost to play at midlevel because the barrier is gone to invest a few k usd to get the gear to hunt highlevel mobs.
I dont know about the population of EU if we didnt had (L) Stuff, probably a lot more empty.

Limited gear killed however my desire to own a MM or Imp mkII at one point because they not longer eco enough without maxed professions. Mindark devalued the old guns on purpose expect the absolute high end guns for people with profession standing of 100.

L guns have better dps as the oldtimers and better eco. UL SIB guns are the new "mm for the masses"
But there is a cycle, guns get more and more dps and better eco, driving some old ul sib guns allready in the "unwanted" corner. In a few years the emik blp guns series might be horrible, (L) not dropping anymore and the ul sib ones terribly are uneco with way too low dps for their profession standing because mobs got more hp and regen compensated by more dps and eco on a new brand of guns. At one point even a mod fap might have good limited alternatives and who knows at one point it can become underpowerd. Years ago an adj fap used to be godly , today its just good to hunt medium stuff and L alternatives arn't that eco but provide way better heal per second at a reasonable 9 heal / pec. Who knows how eco this faps become in 3 years ?

I believe the trend goes to more L stuff along with UL gear for the people that got monney to spend.
At one point mindark might make the old UL guns probably max at lets say level 70 because they will be still uneco maxxed compared to L stuff and horribly leak the needed dps.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

It may sound terrible but may not be so bad for the game as a whole. Something like that could phase out L altogether. Could have a few niche weapons I suppose that can be used in repair terminal as now without any additional extras.

I've also been using L recently but find availability of gun that I want a problem. L weapons are of no benefit to most players or MA so I think a case can be made for their removal. If they are removed it would affect people like kikkijikki who craft L weapons which is why something like adding a crafted material for repair would be useful. The solution tries to accomodate everyone, it would be bad to leave crafters in a terrible situation.

This would be only fair and acceptable, if all UNL items that existed prior to such change, would retain current way of repairing (only ped in repair term).

 

[Spawn]

I don't use L anymore, but invested in cheap UL sib instead. My rule is to not pay more than 1500 ped for UL sib.
This means I won't have the same amount of dps compared to L, but at least I have the feeling I own something.
The most dps is from the shagadi swords. One is tier 3 and with dmg enhancers I get 53 dps from it.. (if only there were melee amps!)

this is my current weapon arsenal:
Weapon Dmg Att Dps Eco Price
Cap-tt r/a101 9 67 7 2.907 tt+1
Ozpyn Lr s1x1/a101 12 51 7.1 2.924 tt+49
Ozpyn bp s1x1/rage 10(L) 27 39 12.2 2.878 tt+25
first gen electric chip IV 39 29 13.1 2.823 tt+40
xent tech x3/a102 24 48 13.3 2.957 tt+380
bevis fire fire/rage 10 (L) 25 74 21.4 2.959 tt+400
baringer sr37/beast T2 137.8 15 23.9 2.787 tt+800
philosopher sword 44 56 28.5 2.915 tt+60
Archon T.1 58.3 53 35.8 2.989 tt +1000
Aakas fire dagger T.1 55 63 40.1 2.889 tt+600
Shagadi sword T.1 72.6 54 45.4 2.903 tt+1100

I still have a t.2 karma killer and a t.2 fusil charade. Cheap options, but they don't give me the "empty L" feeling.
My armor is also all UL. In fact I don't use any L part except some L amps, because they do not have an UL counterpart (rage 10 for example).
Ironically.. only 3 out of 13 of those weapon is still from caly.. and they are the least eco.
There are choices, you just need to make them. If you cannot hunt prots solo like this.. do them in team?

 

[aridash]

... L weapons are of no benefit to most players or MA so I think a case can be made for their removal. If they are removed it would affect people like kikkijikki who craft L weapons which is why something like adding a crafted material for repair would be useful. The solution tries to accomodate everyone, it would be bad to leave crafters in a terrible situation.

The limited stuff keep Entropia alive, if i had all gear UL i would never spend another ped at the market only for repairs and ammo from the TT.

the problem is that the solution is a fudge, result of seemingly conflicting strategies at MA over the years. , items introduced to solve a balance problem, whcih cause new problems so more items introduced to solve... you two will probably know what i mean. trying to make crafting meaningful in a world of unlimited was never going to work long term, but Limited screws the hunter. then limited drops distort the crafting benefit, and unL SIB even more so (not to mention the impact to skills...)

if you were starting again, you wouldnt start from here. i'd venture the prefered path would be to have clear different class of weapons crafted and looted. ie, crafted might be shorter range, higher speed but a bit lower DPS, while looted benefited from better range and DPS and slightly slower. theres an advantage to the crafted, an advantage to the looted, take your pick. the funny thing is before L there was some of this sort of thing, like crafted long blades vs axes, Maddox vs Delta. except they made alot of crafted lower eco (so noone wanted them). when L came along they made them all as good or better than anything available except at the very top (recently adressed, probably more sensibly with high level required).

alot of lessons learnt, but i think too late, hving not controlled the bubble in any way, they've seemingly allowed prices to crash, so getting it wrong twice. now we see a new approach, make unL items materials in upgrades, allowing values to stabalise or increase while also making available for drops. too earlier to see if its a solution, but in my mind its a reaction to that decision to not get the balance of Limited/unlimited, crafted/looted right in the first place.

 

[billairboy]

This would be only fair and acceptable, if all UNL items that existed prior to such change, would retain current way of repairing (only ped in repair term).

Well, we could have "new" and "old" UL weapons, and you could have the choice to upgrade your "old" UL weapon the "new" UL version and that will give you some extra benefits, like better damage/hit abilities, but will require the special repair material when repairing. I mean, the whole point of the thread was that the UL weapons was not useable because most of us have so low skills so we get so low hit ability if we use them. So the suggestion was a solution to make them somewhat more useful for the players that have too low skill.

 

[Kri]

What I'm finding interesting is that it seems as if MA is trying to move away from the RCE model here. I have a feeling that we will see more and more limited items since limited items will decay to nothing and have no value where UL items will have value that at some point MA will have to pay back to the owner if they ever want to sale.

Yes, UL items are going to shit now and for this MA is happy to see since UL items will soon be as limited items with no value. And with MA starting to introduces items that are UL but have no value. We soon most likely will see more of this. The question is, is this good or bad.

Yes, crafters, it may be good for you in the short run but it is good for all. Players will have to stop and search for items to buy with limited items and soon get tired searching whereas with UL items, the player just needs to repair and back to hunting they go. So it's unclear were it stands, but it makes the most sense that MA is going this route.

Limited items have no value? It's like saying your loot has no value... With gear being UL only and when Limited items would not exist that's exactly what would happen in long run in EU. Why? Because everyone at certain stage would get the UL gear they want and there would be no need for crafting any more, aside from maybe few achievers or hobbyists.

Without L items, long term, all loot would be TT food aside from some rare drops. It's weird that MA has not realized this from day 1.

In real life nothing is really UL either. Your car slowly breaks down, your latest iPhone after few years will break down completely, etc etc.

I absolutely agree that UL items have the 'feel good' factor and I have UL items too for that reason. They are convenient because you don't end up needing to find a replacement for your broken gear and are not at mercy of availability of materials and their MU.

But guess what? In RL when an earthquake hits a factory where some components PCs/gadgets are made it affects availability of the end product, and their price quite often.

We all have been spoiled by MA having UL items in the first place. Their existence created a dream that we don't want to wake up from.

I'm going to be hated by what I will say next, but let me remind you I do own and love UL items:
Owning UL items is selfish and detrimental to EU economy and universe as a whole. But at this stage we just have to live with them

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Owning UL items is selfish and detrimental to EU economy and universe as a whole. But at this stage we just have to live with them

I think this is one of main reasons why L items were first introduced. L and unlimited can both exist but as we have found out now L items can be a nuisance in terms of availability.

Sorry to go around in circles but it helps us to understand the situation where we are at now.


We know unlimited alone not so good for economy. We also know limited items can be problematic due to availability although good for the economy.

Perhaps the melding of the 2 into one would be the way forward. Exactly how? well that's what we need to figure out....


possible solutions:
- Limited repair terminals. Instead of crafters crafting weapons perhaps they could craft repair terminals which would be limited. These modern repair terminals could have additional features e.g. portable making them desirable to have and use in the field. Plus could be combined repair+trade terminal in one etc
- Unlimited terminals have some kind of Structural Integrity. Which ages with use and can cause item to break. Which may require a crafter to fix. So essentially another type of repair added on. A long term repair/fix function
- weapon repair material. mentioned above by someone i.e. a material/item required to repair unlimited items
-Completing some kind of quest to fix/repair could include item/materials as key to enter instance

could there be any other solutions?

 

[KijkkiJikki]

could there be any other solutions?

Well there could be a mix of limited gear and unlimited gear. That might work....

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Well there could be a mix of limited gear and unlimited gear. That might work....

Good too see someone talking sense here

I think MA should (L)imit flow of UNL items (that feels like flood recently) and there will be still market for (L), with chance for healthy economy.
No need to break game even more than it is, and it feels like some of people in this thread aim to do.

 

[GeorgeSkywalker]

Well there could be a mix of limited gear and unlimited gear. That might work....

Yes, that could. However, it has some problems namely availability. If we could somehow solve that other solutions may not be needed.

Availability is an issue because it can prevent people from playing. It can essentially cause people to take mini breaks if they can't find the item at the price they are willing to pay. Which is not good for players or MA.

 

[Teiwaz Storm]

Availability is an issue because it can prevent people from playing. It can essentially cause people to take mini breaks if they can't find the item at the price they are willing to pay. Which is not good for players or MA.

Agree, this is an issue.

Another problem IMO is way too many items with similar stats and requirements, I know that some people are completely lost in this abundance, therefore when they cannot find 'their' gun and couple others they know they give up. Things were much easier before change (was it year ago?) when 'old' L items ( /parts to craft them) stopped to drop and flood of new types was introduced.

 

[Arch]

 

[Kri]

Looking at what MA did with Motherships and Privateers is an interesting idea.
The hull of these ships is UL but it is useless on its own, you need Energy Source (L), Sub-Warp Drive (L), Armaments (L) and Warp Drive (L) - note currently only Warp Drive decays with use but I'm sure the rest will too at some stage.

It resembles somewhat what we see with cars in RL. Many makes and models share same parts, also some parts could almost last forever with some care (RK tools and Welding Wire? ) but others need constant replacement with new ones - filters, tyres, breaks, engine parts etc.

Can this be applied to armors and weapons? I believe yes, it can!
We could have weapon frames that would be UL and some components in them that are L. For example barrel, trigger, clip etc etc (sorry I'm don't know much about RL weapons )
For armors I would see repairs requiring raw materials or some smaller components.

But realistically changing how UL items are being repaired right now would cause riots. So perhaps this could be the new generation of UL/L hybrid that would have best of both worlds.