The Limited Debate
- Thread starter RickEngland
- Start date
das
Elite
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Posts
- 3,885
- Society
- The Ministry
- Avatar Name
- dasouth Genious dasouth
Yes, that could. However, it has some problems namely availability. If we could somehow solve that other solutions may not be needed.
Availability is an issue because it can prevent people from playing. It can essentially cause people to take mini breaks if they can't find the item at the price they are willing to pay. Which is not good for players or MA.
If the guns you used would be 120%, maybe more ppl would hunt the mob that drops it unlike now
das
Elite
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Posts
- 3,885
- Society
- The Ministry
- Avatar Name
- dasouth Genious dasouth
'Smart' ppl hunt for markup
There used to be a lot of scip hunters who camped there but they ALL stopped with it.
Ask yourself why
Look at what avg mu was & what it is now
That's why there's a lack of redeemers on auction, add to that the fact that some ppl TT the 101-103% guns..
If ppl like George would pay 115-125% for the redeemers ppl would camp scips again & he wouldn't be short on L guns
das
Elite
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Posts
- 3,885
- Society
- The Ministry
- Avatar Name
- dasouth Genious dasouth
Seriously, if you're gonna state that there are GAPS in gun progress then we are done talking..
I come from the era where it was opallo+104 or korss/p5 & everything up was basicly unaffordable unless you did like me & depo 10k ped/month
I come from the era where it was opallo+104 or korss/p5 & everything up was basicly unaffordable unless you did like me & depo 10k ped/month
Interesting thread. I do like the new guns but, like others have said, is the lack of the new guns dropping. Case in point, igni 1200. I busted my butt to get to that lvl and now I can't even remember when I have seen one on the auction. I changed to carbine, the lc-240 to be exact and now they are becoming scarce because the eomons are gone and I guess they were the only mob that dropped them, I don't even know what mob drops the 1200. I have almost reached the lvl to use the igni 1210 but here again there seems to be less and less of them on the auction. Chomppers drop the 1210 but it appears no one hunts them much, at least I see very few glbs for them and hardly ever see one that is high enough to contain a full (TT is 216) 1210. On top of all of that my loot drops have been awful and gbls are practically non-existent in the past 10 days so I couldn't afford one of those anyway.
I really don't mind depoing but not every day.
Coz
I really don't mind depoing but not every day.
Coz
GeorgeSkywalker
Mutated
- Joined
- May 20, 2007
- Posts
- 11,642
- Location
- England
- Society
- Freelancer
- Avatar Name
- George Ace Skywalker
If the guns you used would be 120%, maybe more ppl would hunt the mob that drops it unlike now
120% mark up may be good news for you but there are a few problems with this:
* 120% is bad news for the people who play within a limited budget. They may not be able to afford a gun at 120%. They are effectively driven away from the game.
* The ones who do buy at 120% are more likely to be making a loss, as they are unlikely to make up the shortfall from loot returns even with markup
So 120% essentially benefits the few and places the users of these weapons at a disadvantage because cost to play for them would be high. If we are interested in everyone rather than the few then this situation is not good...
das
Elite
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Posts
- 3,885
- Society
- The Ministry
- Avatar Name
- dasouth Genious dasouth
So you say the maxed UL users should hunt & sell L stuff for 102% & end up with a 8-10% loss when hunting untaxed?
I'd say that benefits the L users too much
billairboy
Elite
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Posts
- 3,131
- Location
- Örnsköldsvik, Sweden
- Avatar Name
- Bill Airboy Ivanhoe
The problem is caused by competing interest.
I think we need more attributes on the weapons to be able to find a solution. For example, each weapon could have a quality attribute. High, standard or low quality. Looted L weapons could get a low or standard quality, but crafted L weapon could get High quality. High quality would give some benefits to the hit rate/damage and the low quality weapons would give a small penalty.
- We want to have UL items, but that is not good for the crafting and the economy
- We want to be able to find items, both UL and L, in the loot. But that is not good for the crafting either.
- We want to have a system that rewards higher skills, but that system have a negative effect on the use of UL weapons and benefits L weapons
I think we need more attributes on the weapons to be able to find a solution. For example, each weapon could have a quality attribute. High, standard or low quality. Looted L weapons could get a low or standard quality, but crafted L weapon could get High quality. High quality would give some benefits to the hit rate/damage and the low quality weapons would give a small penalty.
Teiwaz Storm
Stalker
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2009
- Posts
- 2,246
- Location
- Alba
- Society
- Freelancer
- Avatar Name
- Teiwaz Storm Ing
This already exist in terms of different ECO (dpp). High quality weapons are very eco to use while low q have very bad eco....
RickEngland
Elite
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2011
- Posts
- 4,600
- Location
- Essex England UK
- Society
- Jurai Blood
- Avatar Name
- Rickard Rick England
In response to what I said "I run limited as only way to be 10/10 hit ability"
I've never trusted SIB personally, because it doesn't give you full power. Sure you're supposed to get bonus skill, I never felt like I got much extra skill when I tried SIB years ago.
I think the benefits of running a completely maxed gun, out weighs any other so called benefit MA might suggest.
For the last say 3-4 years, I've run completely 10/10 hit ability and had the best results I've ever had. Ironically it was not so much the choice of weapon that made the difference, rather the choice of mob.
I feel I have more success hunting with the biggest gun I'm skilled for on the biggest mobs both for my skills and the weapons I can handle. In fact if I ever go to low mobs I get screwed. Similar to what smigs used to say using his "iron crap" rant every now and then.
All that makes sense now, I wish I would've been brave enough to move away from atrox, ambuls and feffs years ago.
The MU thing is interesting. If I ever benefit from MU (sale of guns at say 120% or ESI's), the system seems to want it back, if I spend and buy a new limited guns or faps I appear to get rewarded. Is this the system balancing?
Maybe years ago the game let you keep MU sold on limited items, but I strongly believe any MU associated with limited bought or sold is corrected and balanced back. On the view point the correction happens too often to be a coincidence.
Lets also look at comparison, I shoot a LC-60 with no enhancers I general get 100-120 damage a shot on average with a A105 attached.
What sort on money would I need to invest to get a gun like that? 50K peds I bet.
Now if lucky I can loot 50% of the LC-60's so only paying MU up front of 50% of the guns.
Lets say MU is not returned on L. I probably lose 60 ped per full new LC-60 gun and 35 ped per UR125. Sure that is a lot of MU, if MA pays 90% and you have to make up the difference.
But the real issue for me is, to buy a 50K gun I would have to deposit for it. Because I never got a break and hit really big. I don't want to depo $5000 mate for a weapon, got kids to feed. My GF would cut my nuts off.
edit: Although point of my original post was: would I risk getting my nuts cut off, if there was clear undeniable proof there was a "massive" benefit with unlimited weapons. If there was new lootable things, or access to other areas. But where does it stop, then depo $10,000 for a fap.....then $10,000 for armour. It would be very hard to justify to my family or myself.
Rick
ps: may I say thank you to all replies and keep them coming keep chatting, makes a change to use the forum for debate rather than mostly sales threads.
Last edited:
I must say that I agree with you about the old days as it did seem that I had more fun back then, however I think your memory is a little foggy. Why would you use an opalo+104 ?? That cuts the eco down to 1.6xx and makes no sense. I am not sure how you hunted longu naked as the least HP is 42 and when I started, in 2007, a snabbie young could kill pretty easily. And really a chomper with a Korss. Even with an a104 your dmg was only 51 and a chomper young had 2110 HP and did dmg of 132. Even now with a lc-60 with an A104 (150 dmg) and 205 HP and 45 evade I still can barely kill a young without a frapper. I really not trying to bust you balls even though it may seem that way because most all of what you said I really do like so don't take it personal I just think your memory is a little foggy as mine get from time to time.
Peace;
Coz
Fifth
Elite
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Posts
- 2,764
- Avatar Name
- The "Fifth" Entity
The full-L economy has been tested, it works fine. Why shouldn't it if it copies the reality better?
In EU we're used to items that last indefinitely, so we can't see any more that it's a total nonsense.
Put this unrealistic element into your system and u have to invent equally unnatural balancing mechanisms. A vicious circle.
UL had become a Holy Grail, investment, status symbol and whatnot...
A serious business is built on trust, and needs a certain stability. MA couldn't simply throw UL stuff out of the system. I'm sure they weighed this option but realized it's too risky. So they they had to adapt.
In EU we're used to items that last indefinitely, so we can't see any more that it's a total nonsense.
Put this unrealistic element into your system and u have to invent equally unnatural balancing mechanisms. A vicious circle.
The original concept of L was actually repairable, but not indefinitely. Kinda half-way between EU's L and UL, more realistic than either of them.
I'm sure MA would have never created any UL items if they would got the L idea sooner. By the time they finally borrowed it, it was already too late.UL had become a Holy Grail, investment, status symbol and whatnot...
A serious business is built on trust, and needs a certain stability. MA couldn't simply throw UL stuff out of the system. I'm sure they weighed this option but realized it's too risky. So they they had to adapt.
Salty Grimyth
Dominant
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2010
- Posts
- 396
- Location
- Nevada
- Society
- I Dunno Why
- Avatar Name
- Grimyth Salty qq
Naithen
Old Alpha
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2006
- Posts
- 978
- Society
- Indy
If I was MA I would buy up all the unlimited weapons out there so L was the standard. I would then start dropping different L weapons that had lower tt value but last ALOT longer ( LL , LLL ) making them an uber nice loot to get from hunting tough mob.I would increase L weapons that require combo skills like rifle/blp or pistol/rifle. Load new weapons with unique sound and visual damage. Over all I think they need to continue with lower cost L items period so your entertainment dollar feels like it has more value. Increase the fun factor and they make more profits for everyone.
Oh one last thing I think would help is item chains. Items that require you to loot several parts before you can use them and you gain them buy gaining higher skill levels and hunting the mob that drop them and you cant buy the parts you have to loot them yourself or craft them, the items could be anything from a sight glass/binoculars to a taming whip to a collection of armor apartment furniture , etc etc etc .
Oh one last thing I think would help is item chains. Items that require you to loot several parts before you can use them and you gain them buy gaining higher skill levels and hunting the mob that drop them and you cant buy the parts you have to loot them yourself or craft them, the items could be anything from a sight glass/binoculars to a taming whip to a collection of armor apartment furniture , etc etc etc .
Last edited:
valentin
Elite
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2006
- Posts
- 4,865
- Society
- Experia
- Avatar Name
- Sir Valentin
There are two major problems with (L)-items.
1.They are expensive to use an active hunters can save between 20-60k per year peds with that with a use of a non (L)-weapon only justify the purchase of non (L)-weapon.
2.If you find an (L)-weapon that suits you, you can never be sure that you always have it when you feel to do some hunting and when it suits you.
Need not say more why it is better to use non (L)-items, then there may be a reason to use (L)-weapons if MA has manipulated the loot so the (L)-weapons gives better loot.
1.They are expensive to use an active hunters can save between 20-60k per year peds with that with a use of a non (L)-weapon only justify the purchase of non (L)-weapon.
2.If you find an (L)-weapon that suits you, you can never be sure that you always have it when you feel to do some hunting and when it suits you.
Need not say more why it is better to use non (L)-items, then there may be a reason to use (L)-weapons if MA has manipulated the loot so the (L)-weapons gives better loot.
Pyhä Antero
Old Alpha
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2006
- Posts
- 782
Here's how Mindark could make better economy with more (L)imited and (T)emporary UL tools:
1. Larger % of the weapons, tools etc. should be craftable.
2. Larger % should be Limited weapons, tools, etc. Also there should be perks to use (L) e.g. more eco.
3. New series of weapons, tools, etc. should be always better than the already existing in terms of dpp, eco, dps, range, lower req. lvl, speed, pvp dmg etc. This would mean that everything is temporary even MM's, Mod Faps, etc.
4. Economical hunting should result better loot than uneco, let's say 105% tt return at max.
Skilled crafter should get better return. Mining should remain as it's now, with small mining revamp which I think is already coming + constant balancing actions.
5. There should be library of weapons stats ingame, where you could easily see what you have maxed and where you have SIB going.
6. Auction feature for ordering Limited weapons and tools WITHOUT CHARGE. This would benefit crafters, as they could see the demand.
7. Looted (L) weapons should be those 1 ped guns which last very long, maybe make them 1-20 ped.
8. Remove the market history.
9. More special effect items such as Thorifoid Helms.
10. Hunting tools over prof. lvl 100.
11. Mindark making a vision, (telling it to us) and STICKING INTO IT (making only small twists)!
1. Larger % of the weapons, tools etc. should be craftable.
2. Larger % should be Limited weapons, tools, etc. Also there should be perks to use (L) e.g. more eco.
3. New series of weapons, tools, etc. should be always better than the already existing in terms of dpp, eco, dps, range, lower req. lvl, speed, pvp dmg etc. This would mean that everything is temporary even MM's, Mod Faps, etc.
4. Economical hunting should result better loot than uneco, let's say 105% tt return at max.
Skilled crafter should get better return. Mining should remain as it's now, with small mining revamp which I think is already coming + constant balancing actions.
5. There should be library of weapons stats ingame, where you could easily see what you have maxed and where you have SIB going.
6. Auction feature for ordering Limited weapons and tools WITHOUT CHARGE. This would benefit crafters, as they could see the demand.
7. Looted (L) weapons should be those 1 ped guns which last very long, maybe make them 1-20 ped.
8. Remove the market history.
9. More special effect items such as Thorifoid Helms.
10. Hunting tools over prof. lvl 100.
11. Mindark making a vision, (telling it to us) and STICKING INTO IT (making only small twists)!
maxwellhawk
Prowler
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Posts
- 1,418
- Location
- by the sea
- Society
- Damage Inc.
- Avatar Name
- max hawk phoenix
Get rid of the L stuff. Go back to UL and just make it so there is a random chance for the item to break. Get rid of the flat pay to win (given the opportunity to be uber without having to play is just plain stupid!). The thing that gave this game it's start is - everyone was on equal footing - which no longer exists (just had to earn the skills to use anything). I could go into the story of how this worked back in the golden days but it would be a long story of how avs used to play.
With the idea that your item may break at any time (wish the peeps that ran this game had some kind of foresight) it will control the value of all items. It will support the crafters as well as the avs that supply the materials for all items. Drops will always continue as all items can be left for balancing with the destruction rate and the number of avs playing. In other words the game would have a real economy if these ideas would be applied.
So I guess what I'm saying is FUCK "L" stuff.
Sorry I know a lot of peeps would have issues with these ideas - but anything would be better then the way we're going now.
With the idea that your item may break at any time (wish the peeps that ran this game had some kind of foresight) it will control the value of all items. It will support the crafters as well as the avs that supply the materials for all items. Drops will always continue as all items can be left for balancing with the destruction rate and the number of avs playing. In other words the game would have a real economy if these ideas would be applied.
So I guess what I'm saying is FUCK "L" stuff.
Sorry I know a lot of peeps would have issues with these ideas - but anything would be better then the way we're going now.
Pyhä Antero
Old Alpha
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2006
- Posts
- 782
Sir, they have more than you do. Sorry.
And, wtf, UL stuff breakable.... "LMAO, bought Mod Fap yesterday, now it doesn't exist"... Sir, you're suggesting something which is similar to Limited, but more crazy.
maxwellhawk
Prowler
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Posts
- 1,418
- Location
- by the sea
- Society
- Damage Inc.
- Avatar Name
- max hawk phoenix
If you would have had to pay tt+1 for that fap would you be singing the same tune? I see talk about comparing this to real life - however do durable goods actually last forever?
Pyhä Antero
Old Alpha
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2006
- Posts
- 782
So you would remove markup, economy and investments... how would that work. Sorry, I don't see how this could make the game more profitable for high-end players, mid-lvl players nor beginners...
maxwellhawk
Prowler
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Posts
- 1,418
- Location
- by the sea
- Society
- Damage Inc.
- Avatar Name
- max hawk phoenix
I take it you don't think an even playing ground is not fair because you have more $ then anyone else. The ability to get a profit is more important then having fun?
I have fun playing this game and the only reason I care about the money is that it is required to keep playing (and that is not always true); however I've learned to play according to my budget. The funny thing about budget back in the golden age you could play for a month for 20-30$ (and hunt whatever you wanted) - maybe not come out ahead but you sure had a lot of fun trying.
Sorry your beliefs are pure capitalism which has failed throughout history but good luck with the idea that money is everything.
Sidney
Stalker
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2005
- Posts
- 1,557
- Avatar Name
- Sidney
Like welding wire . Erm oh well why not....
Pyhä Antero
Old Alpha
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2006
- Posts
- 782
How you afford UL over L? And, I agree that Entropia used to be more fun in the past, but I think it doesn't have anything to do with (L).