WoF Issues and Complaints

[Hurrikane]

Firstly; there's no need to bring RL into this at all.

Secondly; after the posts settled down, a sensible solution was posed by the USA team; a cap on the Final.

Thirdly; the WoF kicks off in a few hours and I want everyone to be happy.

Fourth(ly?) I've had 2 hours sleep (new baby) and I am having a good day today if it kills me.

So, if you wish to support the USA's suggestion for a cap on the Final, say yay or nay. May as well be here, this is the complaints thread after all. If by the time the Final is upon us, there are enough votes (not all from one country though; state your Team with your vote), and we can decide on the size of the cap, then I'll change it.

Does that settle this?


Hurrikane

 

[Az Bloodz]

Why not just ask the team captains instead of each and everyone of this forum?

 

[Hurrikane]

Why not just ask the team captains instead of each and everyone of this forum?

Did I mention being tired and busy? Ask 'em yourself by all means, the forum is public


Hurrikane

 

[Hurrikane]

I'd just like to urge you all to talk to each other a bit more (the Teams), as one team's complaint is another team's don't give a shit, and it would be easier for me to see the things that need changing if you'd all agreed on things before I get to hear.


Hurrikane

 

[aia]

We go back to even a year before when USA did win and why? A snablesnot global!

That snablesnot global could have been the result of a wise tactical choice.

Usually at some point a WoF teams asks itself: Should we persue trying to get a global on Chirpy Young, or should we spend the rest of the time getting 5 more or less guaranteed globals on Chomper instead?

That kind of decisions can turn a game.

 

[Hurrikane]

As I recall, the snables weren't the best choice of Bonus Mob (it does happen), being particularly hard to get. I do like to present a challenge though, and like has been said, a hard bonus mob presents a choice, whether to bother going for it or not. If another team gets lucky, and their Bonus Mob global completes the Sweep (as it did for USA), then it brings a very useful 25+75 points.

With hindsight, the Bonus Mob in the Final should not be one with such a 'lottery' aspect of globalling (you might hunt snables all day and not global), but the situation WAS the same for all three teams.

Also, the warm glow I felt coming from the relatively new player who got the tiny mob that won it for her country was worth any complaint over how it went down. And even for a win by Snable, the team in quesion has to have a decent points-base to add to. No easy way to win.

Hurrikane

 

[aridash]

wow how many pages over night? someone comes across as a whiney kid. at the end of the day, if one doesnt like the rules, dont take part, but dont threaten to withdraw others who might want to still enjoy themselfs. if one has perceptions of others unifying against your nation, maybe a time for a little introspection on why they might be and what you could do about that. or not, and leave those that are happy to engage in the event carry on. i also recall a certain nation asking other nations for support in the final several years. so why is this support cap thing an issue this year?

 

[Hurrikane]

wow how many pages over night? someone comes across as a whiney kid. at the end of the day, if one doesnt like the rules, dont take part, but dont threaten to withdraw others who might want to still enjoy themselfs. if one has perceptions of others unifying against your nation, maybe a time for a little introspection on why they might be and what you could do about that. or not, and leave those that are happy to engage in the event carry on. i also recall a certain nation asking other nations for support in the final several years. so why is this support cap thing an issue this year?

Beats me but if I get the nod from the majority I'll do something about it.


Hurrikane

 

[Az Bloodz]

Did I mention being tired and busy? Ask 'em yourself by all means, the forum is public


Hurrikane

To be honest I don't care. I thought it was easier to ask the captains as representatives of each team so you have the opinion of the people who are participating rather than having everyone and their neighbour posting. Just wanted to be nice and give a little hint how things could be done easier besides keeping everything as it is of course. Not my tournemant nor my rules.

 

[Hurrikane]

To be honest I don't care. I thought it was easier to ask the captains as representatives of each team so you have the opinion of the people who are participating rather than having everyone and their neighbour posting. Just wanted to be nice and give a little hint how things could be done easier besides keeping everything as it is of course. Not my tournemant nor my rules.

Hope I didn't sound too blunt, long night. Here's to another one


Hurrikane

 

[aia]

On one hand it would break the mentioned "no cap" on the final. On the other hand, if the support cap is reasonable and comparable to what support teams have one so far I guess it's no bigger deal practically. Maybe it's a bigger issue for other teams though with higer final support activity (France).

Anyhow the matches are soon to begin for this weekend and I don't think it's too late to think *now* for the rules in the final - after the match(es) today after all it's almost two weeks to next match.

I suggest the question of change of support cap/the final is lifted out of this thread and discussed in a separate thread.

 

[Wildman Alpha]

Many post, and many just don't get it. WoF lost support from many ubers from USA over the years. Just because we been fielding a team for 5 years doesn't mean it was the top players. As they see how things go and the current rules they stop playing. Pretty sure you will see 2 maybe 3 main team players from previous years not the main team of old. Sure no other country will back this rule change if it means a weaker team for USA. I don't make complaints about the rule for myself I am still here and going to play my best to win every match we play! I make the complaint on behalf of my countrymen who won't play because of the current way it is ran.

Sweden 100% might be right but still how many of them started out on other teams?

Trying to bash USA for making a valid complaint is just sad for everyone that tried to flame us. I never said anything bad about any other team nor did I single a team out. We also cap ourselves with this rule change so where are we gaining an advantage? It handicaps USA more if anything!

But it does give main team a seance that this is still a main team event with support. Yes main team will be supported by support we know this. By either faping the main team or softening mobs for them and still scoring support points. Acceptable that is as it is part of the strategy to win.

No clue why so many went up in arms last night over a simple request I should have just PMed Hurricane with the USA complaint and let him suggest it all to the WoF Community. Lesson learned there.

A Kid crying NO, a Captain leading his country is what is going on. The complaint was brought to my attention and I addressed it as I always do. A kid crying would have told the ones complaining I can't do anything about it. But we have this lovely forum here to air out what we feel might be wrong with WoF. Guessing after all the post this is still the wrong place to say anything.

Prizes I saw one post? We get something other than a Jacket? If you ever get your prize I still see some complaints from previous years.

Well I vetted enough here, good luck to all the teams that get fielded this year.

V/R
Wildman

 

[Buck Wyld]

Very interesting debate going on here, however, it may not be the time or place for it.

Do I think support should be capped? Yes, maybe 300 points or so.
I don't, on the otherhand think this can or should be implimented this year, the rules were stated and this is what we signed up for.

Also personals attacks on individuals or their countries have no place in this discussion.

I do believe some of usa's ubers are not competing this year for the rules issues but perhaps other reasons as well, this is totally their choice

I also think the if People don't like the rules they can choose not to play, however, team USA will be competing even if it's just me on USA main

Good luck to all and game on!!

 

[Rumple]

what a load of CRAP posted in this thread ....

This is a great competition and Hurrikane runs it for free and I am sure spends many hours doing it ....

Like ALL events it has rules ....

If you don't like the rules then do not participate ...

I participate just for the fun and trying to win, however unlikely ....

btw have helped USA support before when my team was out in the later stages ....

 

[Jimmy B]

Wow, it all got a bit heated last night...

Anyway, I don't think rules should change once the competition has started, so I guess this is a discussion for next year's WoF now. It appears to me there are various things that could do with being addressed to ensure WoF stays as good (and as well attended) as it has been in the past:

(i) Some people like big unlimited support teams, and don't want to see much changed.
(ii) Some people don't like big unlimited support teams, and perhaps some are choosing not to participate due to the dominance of the mega-teams.
(iii) It's hard to do anything about big unlimited support teams, since a lot of their impact can be on main team damage reduction, so support caps don't really address the issue fully and there's no easy way to police support involvement in the main team hunting.
(iv) Trying to fund nice prizes has resulted in mob lists being rather dominated by mobs that can be found in taxed LAs.
(v) Less teams are entering than in the past, and more teams would be better for the competition.

It's hard to come up with solutions that will keep everyone happy. The things I would consider are:

(i) Allow multiple teams per country. This should increase the number of teams, and will give more players the opportunity to play in a main team.
(ii) Return to mainly just token prizes like WoF jackets and do away with sponsorship. This will make participating cheaper, and also allow for more varied mob lists.
(iii) Have various handicap scoring modes a team can choose to use. One option would be uncapped, unlimited support, much like we have now but without the caps. Another option would be one support team only (one member in team would be required to be present with judges to prove uniqueness of team when globalling), with higher scoring for main team (or extra main team players allowed). Maybe also an option for main team only, again with even higher scoring or extra players in main team. This should encourage smaller nations to take part, as they'd have a way to counter the big support scores from other teams.

 

[KiriMistPrinces]

I also think the if People don't like the rules they can choose not to play, however, team USA will be competing even if it's just me on USA main

Good luck to all and game on!!

Amen buck. You won't be alone though, these colors don't run. I'm not turning tail and quitting for any reason. I'll support our team until we're knocked out.

 

[Hurrikane]

Wow, it all got a bit heated last night...

Anyway, I don't think rules should change once the competition has started, so I guess this is a discussion for next year's WoF now. It appears to me there are various things that could do with being addressed to ensure WoF stays as good (and as well attended) as it has been in the past:

(i) Some people like big unlimited support teams, and don't want to see much changed.
(ii) Some people don't like big unlimited support teams, and perhaps some are choosing not to participate due to the dominance of the mega-teams.
(iii) It's hard to do anything about big unlimited support teams, since a lot of their impact can be on main team damage reduction, so support caps don't really address the issue fully and there's no easy way to police support involvement in the main team hunting.
(iv) Trying to fund nice prizes has resulted in mob lists being rather dominated by mobs that can be found in taxed LAs.
(v) Less teams are entering than in the past, and more teams would be better for the competition.

It's hard to come up with solutions that will keep everyone happy. The things I would consider are:

(i) Allow multiple teams per country. This should increase the number of teams, and will give more players the opportunity to play in a main team.
(ii) Return to mainly just token prizes like WoF jackets and do away with sponsorship. This will make participating cheaper, and also allow for more varied mob lists.
(iii) Have various handicap scoring modes a team can choose to use. One option would be uncapped, unlimited support, much like we have now but without the caps. Another option would be one support team only (one member in team would be required to be present with judges to prove uniqueness of team when globalling), with higher scoring for main team (or extra main team players allowed). Maybe also an option for main team only, again with even higher scoring or extra players in main team. This should encourage smaller nations to take part, as they'd have a way to counter the big support scores from other teams.

I like a lot of these ideas. I agree with the sentiment that this year should run unchanged if at all possible, but I'm looking forward to the questionnaire that will help shape WoF 2013.

Hurrikane

 

[Suffistica]

I love WOF, but I get the feeling that having the event every year is a bit much. So I suggest to do it every 2 years, just like the big soccer tournaments irl. That way it might be easier to find more participants.

Also in our team (Team benelux) I noticed that it is harder to get people enthusiastic to join this year, even for the main team. In this case the migration might have a lot to do with it. People just have no more peds to spend, or just dont want to spend the peds on another event. Of course also this year there is the upcoming changes to the iron challenges, and i know quite a lot of people who really want to finish some missions before the new changes take effect (me included). I hope this will be reconsidered when making the moblists btw.

 

[aridash]

I love WOF, but I get the feeling that having the event every year is a bit much. So I suggest to do it every 2 years,

for my money, and i use that term deliberatly, this is the biggest single change that needs to happen. either that or make the format shorter.

 

[xaph]

Jimmy didnt shy away from stating his point, so silly remark by you to be frank. And I agree with him. I wont do WOF unless I am willing to spend money, more money than usual, on playing this game. Support get nothing, but are EVERYTHING. Support is arguably more important than the main team. That said, some mains have got nothing as well.

It's a bucket of shit if you ask me, not caused by the WOF organisers who deserve medals for the amount of time and effort put into it, but MA/FPC/SEE etc who cant see beyond their noses.

Then spend some ped and commit and we will see!

 

[PaulCrystal]

If you place the value of money over that of other resources the support team should be capped. Capping the support score will put more emphasis on main team and main team support shooters, which in turn will raise the cost of the event for those participating and make it yet another uber event. It will cause the "I have a big gun and can kill faster than you scenario".


Uncapping the support allows for other values to play a vital role. Values such as friendship, alliances, dislike, grudge are as important as other resources and rallying a large support force is a totally fair and valid way of gaining large firepower.


I would really like to see other teams than just nations as some ppl tend to take the "TEAM whatever" way too serious and seem to get some ill-directed national pride out of the whole thing.


At the same time I think ppl have all right to express their opinion and they can do so in a more or less annoying way in order to get more or less support in the later stages, but that is a choice everyone has to make for themselves. I just find it sad that some ppl tend to think somewhere along the lines "if your opinion is not the same as mine you are an asshole (read: donkey) and I can insult you as much as I want".

 

[aia]

I would really like to see other teams than just nations as some ppl tend to take the "TEAM whatever" way too serious and seem to get some ill-directed national pride out of the whole thing.

There is/has been teams that doesn't strictly conform to members living in those nations.
Previous years, Team Tibet (which I can't represent this year because of obvious reasons ) and Uzbekistan, to mention two.

Also a new team this year is Rocktropia which seems to be pretty good.

Another team (which I don't think registered in advance), "Moon" (unfortunately didn't get that much points).

 

[Serica]

I came across this post by Mack after last years competition, about the effect of support caps on final placements, and I think it bears repeating for those who haven't seen it before. I'll give the quote in full to save people having to actually clik on a link :

I have always been a strong proponent of reducing the support caps, just because I thought it would "level the playing field" somewhat. I was about to post this morning in support of it again, but I figured I'd crunch some numbers based on last year and see what difference it might have made to the end results. I was kind of surprised how little difference it really made in the end. Stage 3 and Stage 4 are pretty easy to evaluate. Beyond that the pairings depended on the previous results, so it's hard to say what the REAL end result would have been, but in the final head to head to head match it shows no change in the winner. Granted, I only evaluated 2010 using this method, and I don't have time or the numbers available to go back to 2007, 2008, or 2009, so not sure what they would show.

In the end, the exact same top 12 teams advanced to Stage 4 regardless of whether I set the support cap at 100 or even down as low as 50 during stage 3 (support cap was at 200 for stage 3).

In Stage 4, we run into the only interesting bit of it all and it comes down to that controversial first match with USA and DACH. In the original, USA eeked out a win by 2 points. If the support caps were set to 100, then DACH would have won that match. In the end DACH would have placed first in that group, USA second. This would have changed the pairings for the Semi-finals, so this is where it gets hard to continue a true evaluation. As both DACH and USA were triumphant in the Semis and both teams advanced to the finals, it doesn't seem to really matter.

In the final, the scores get a little closer, but USA remains on top.

SO...based on just last year's numbers, I guess I'm not in such a rush to lower the support cap any more. I do think you have more people involved with a higher cap, as there are some teams that would probably lose some support after hitting cap in less than an hour repeatedly. Hard to say if that is actually true or not, but at least from last year's numbers, it doesn't seem like lower caps necessarily do anything to "level the playing field" really. About the only way you could even things out more is to eliminate support all together, and that certainly wouldn't help Hurrikane's goal of getting as many as possible involved in the event.

Here is the data from 2010 showing original scores and then what would have happened if caps set at 100 (and 50 in stage 3). Mack

{EDIT} - I should rephrase as I'm sure someone will point it out, as the data below DOES show a leveling of the playing field...because the scores do in fact get closer. It doesn't show a difference in the end results though. Same 12 teams advance to stage 4, same winner in the final.

 

[PaulCrystal]

I came across this post by Mack after last years competition, about the effect of support caps on final placements, and I think it bears repeating for those who haven't seen it before. I'll give the quote in full to save people having to actually clik on a link :

So if we want more players involved uncapping the support for any and all levels seems the way to go if I get it right and mack's "reducing the support caps" indeed means lowering the amount of points a support team can score.

Support cap seems to be a useless rule at best with very little impact on the score itself and one hindering more ppl to hunt for support in WoF at worst. So I'd say - remove the caps from all levels and make it raw firepower.

 

[Joker]

Support cap seems to be a useless rule at best with very little impact on the score itself and one hindering more ppl to hunt for support in WoF at worst. So I'd say - remove the caps from all levels and make it raw firepower.

agreed... screw it... if you are going to uncap the championship... uncap the entire thing... seems fair

 

[Serica]

agreed... screw it... if you are going to uncap the championship... uncap the entire thing... seems fair

Support scoring was introduced in WoF2008. England won that year with what was perceived as 'overwhelming support numbers', (even though when you look at the actual support scoring it wasn't that high compared to later years).

Caps on support scores, which increase as the event progresses, were introduced in the rules for WoF2009, expressly to give smaller teams more hope of being competitive in the early stages, and the opportunity to continue to recruit as other teams are eliminated.

Note the comment on the rule for the final:

For the Final, Support scores are unlimited. (By this time, teams are expected to have gathered larger support than they had at the start)

 

[xaph]

Support scoring was introduced in WoF2008. England won that year with what was perceived as 'overwhelming support numbers', (even though when you look at the actual support scoring it wasn't that high compared to later years).

Caps on support scores, which increase as the event progresses, were introduced in the rules for WoF2009, expressly to give smaller teams more hope of being competitive in the early stages, and the opportunity to continue to recruit as other teams are eliminated.

Note the comment on the rule for the final:

An attempt at sustaining promotional impetus for smaller teams and level the playing field across those contesting, otherwise we may have no WoF

 

[Viperstrike]

An attempt at sustaining promotional impetus for smaller teams and level the playing field across those contesting, otherwise we may have no WoF

Kind of wish I chipped in time for this, but unfortunately chip prices are a little unstable atm, going to and fro

 

[Serica]

Kind of wish I chipped in time for this, but unfortunately chip prices are a little unstable atm, going to and fro

So come have fun on a support team anyway

 

[xaph]

Kind of wish I chipped in time for this, but unfortunately chip prices are a little unstable atm, going to and fro

Dont get me wrong mate it's all good, 'cap' or not, Aussies dont give Wombats arse either way!

The more the merrier for our gang

'Come on Down'

regardless of skills and have fun like we all do...every year: