Question: Can I have some constructive feedback?

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

how is thread is not about your rental service when you re just trying to get back the collateral function for clds to help you with your service? More than that, almost at each reply you kinda refer to your service, immo. You got to adapt to game, not the game has to adapt with your service, kinda

I already have a system in place for collateralizing rentals without CLD's or other big ticket items And when used as intended it works really well. I refer to my service because people keep bringing it up and think it is a part of the same already existing service, but it is not, I wanted feedback from the players so I could shape the new service to fit their needs and address concerns before it's an issue.

With threads such as these there will always be a lot of noise from the naysayers and people who think I am just straight up scamming or something, which is not true, but I won't ever convince them otherwise no matter what I say or do but they are not the people this thread is made for. But it does on occasion bring to light a perspective I had not thought of, or an issue I wasn't aware of or might exist since this game is 20 years old and I have only played for a quarter of that.

I never claimed to be a charity, and I wouldn't as most of them are scams that only exist to feed themselves with very little actually going to the actual funding of the thing you think you are donating to. But I am not a charity, I work for profit, but I do so by saving people money or making people money, and that is the difference in my motivations and actions. If I am unable to do that I won't ask you to use my service and will suggest better options for your playstyle. I win by making sure my customer wins first, and then I share my winnings with those that put their trust in me and enabled me to do more faster by utilizing what they invested in me.

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

using a third part escrow service is a pretty common real-world use-case, not sure why people are unable to grasp that

Thank you for understanding what I am trying to do here.

are those third part escrow services in real word a one man show ?

I do have other players that work for me and assist me, but I am guaranteeing the trades with my personal assets in the game and ability to deposit more should the need arise. My personal information is available on facebook groups for Entropia, and I have no issue providing it to players who want that added layer of security, including signing a legally binding document for investing a large sum into my service. So if something went wrong they could seek legal recourse.

but in the real-world they're tied by various regulations

in entropia there is zero regulation as it is not offered by the devs

the risk is almost zero using escrow services in the real world
the risk is enormous using escrow services in EU....and the whole point of using this kind of service is to limit the risk

big difference

I have been in talks with Mindark trying to get them to acknowledge my service and make it legitimate by offering to pay them money to get a license or title from them and to be held to a higher level of scrutiny than the main player base. Here is a copy of the summary of multiple support cases I filed with them, and just so no one comments with 'you are just editing the good parts and leaving behind what you dont want us to see, I will be adding a link to a screenshot as well here.

Hi Xan,

Thank you for your support case.

"Okay, so I can not get any official support until you have made some kind of game mechanics (Like the banks) to run my rental service or investment fund." -(Me)

Unfortunately we cannot answer this in the way you wish, due to outside reasons without any ingame implementation there is no way to do this in a secure way.

"And if so, will I get in trouble if I continue doing what I am doing with my services?" -(Me)

You are not doing anything which is against the rules, you may be subject to the rules regarding trust scamming however as you are doing this at a larger scale than most you are of course more beholden to upholding your side and as such your reputation covers you.

"Or will I be left alone like I have been for the past 3 years and able to continue offering my services as long as I don't cheat, steal, or cause problems for Mindark? Just without any official approval." =(Me)

As above, your reputation and stake in your investment makes it so that you are unlikely to put yourself in a situation where you'd risk your assets and as such you are likely to uphold the deals you make.

We have not in any of the cases surrounding you had cause to deem you anything but trustworthy for the deals you've made up until this time.

"Again, I thank you for your patience and time. This all comes from my enthusiasm and love of the game and the possibilities it offers. I love making friends, I love making money, and I love being able to help people in the process of doing both. I don't want to lose it, that is why I have been asking all these questions and trying to be "legitimate" under Mindark's eyes." -(Me)

We understand this and our intention is not to discourage you in anyway, however unfortunately when it comes to item trades due to how communication can take place it is sometimes not possible for us to uphold anything other than our main policy that all trades are final regardless of what may seem to you as a clearly defined agreement.

Kind regards,
Entropia Universe Support

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

I think a far easier option would be an item timer. The lender loans on a "time trade". At the end of the timer the item would automatically be returned to the owner and the item can't be traded while locked on a timer. Any financial consideration can be conducted separately.

This is the easiest and simplest option as so many other MMO's so that, including the aforementioned Runescape 3. Where you give someone money in a normal trade, and the item you're trading goes into a "separate window" that states how long the lent item will be lent for.

Now you might be asking "These item's tt value degrade when used" Correct they are, Thats where the leeway of good/bad services come into play.

 

[tBANNA]

Edit 2 :

So you are saying any business designed around direct player to player trade instead of using the AH or Exchange is going against the health of the game? If that is the case they should remove the trade player function and be done with it.

Don't twist it pls, is obvious what i wanted to point out, anyway...

let's try again,

- is not "against the health of the game" maybe the game is against the health of the unregulated business
- u can do whatever u want in game, chose whatever business u consider worth your time of playing, u can consume the moments of playing as u like, every1 has his own measurements of joy when comes about any activity in game or IRL, that's why many times i went against those who chose to spit in others plate just because is not to their taste or dont like what they see.
- the game cannot adjust to few who want to do something in the light of what i just said above, there are rules for their business where u, me and anyone else might have no clue about, legally i mean
- a game fallows its development, like any other project, on the steps of his own concept, adjusting here and there, if possible, to the needs of players, and u fit here on your own let say risk if u chose to, but mainly u chose to play what u have in front of u and not the game moves as u decide to play
- renting outside "bank", where u can rent peds for a collateral item, is not regulated, is a risk u willing to take and the game wont kill a legit business just because is a back door for a similar activity,
- ...just don't cry, is healthier, make suggestions, but don't start to cry all around cause your activity gets hurt for not being aligned to the game futures and concept



- last, i don't care...because i really dont care about sensitive bussiness like this when an issue can cause more dmg than it's advantages. ( my strict opinion )

 

[DrGirlfriend]

Rental will never work until it’s possible to rent for significantly less collateral than the items value. Otherwise if you can accord the item why rent it?
And your service doesn’t count as it faces the same issue, needing to own enough money to buy the thing to be able to rent it. People who rent can’t afford to pay collateral they don’t even have close to that much ped. They also don’t have ped to invest in your program to use as collateral.

I want to rent your TWEN gun for 50 ped an hour, 2 hours, total cost: 100 ped. No collateral. Of course no one will ever do such a thing the risk is too high, this is why renting won’t work without a contract system in place by MA like how eve does it.

 

[Katie Chalmers]

Rental will never work until it’s possible to rent for significantly less collateral than the items value. Otherwise if you can accord the item why rent it?
And your service doesn’t count as it faces the same issue, needing to own enough money to buy the thing to be able to rent it. People who rent can’t afford to pay collateral they don’t even have close to that much ped. They also don’t have ped to invest in your program to use as collateral.

I want to rent your TWEN gun for 50 ped an hour, 2 hours, total cost: 100 ped. No collateral. Of course no one will ever do such a thing the risk is too high, this is why renting won’t work without a contract system in place by MA like how eve does it.

You have a bit of flawed logic here, it’s not as simple to just buy the item instead.

To purchase a weapon you generally need PED. Using Xanatos rental service you can use any item as collateral. Many people have valuable items that they don’t want to sell, but happy to use as collateral. This is why rentals are attractive to some.

For example I don’t have 30k liquid to buy an item, but I do have my shop deed. I would never sell my shop deed, it’s a good cash cow, but I’ve used it as collateral before. And because Xanato knows how much my shop deed means to me, he is comfortable with renting me an item because he knows I won’t run off with it, I want my shop deed back.

 

[Deleted member 71093]

You have a bit of flawed logic here, it’s not as simple to just buy the item instead.

To purchase a weapon you generally need PED. Using Xanatos rental service you can use any item as collateral. Many people have valuable items that they don’t want to sell, but happy to use as collateral. This is why rentals are attractive to some.

For example I don’t have 30k liquid to buy an item, but I do have my shop deed. I would never sell my shop deed, it’s a good cash cow, but I’ve used it as collateral before. And because Xanato knows how much my shop deed means to me, he is comfortable with renting me an item because he knows I won’t run off with it, I want my shop deed back.

while it seems logical to a lot of you, it didnt to me until this post
thx katie

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

while it seems logical to a lot of you, it didnt to me until this post
thx katie

Thank you Katie.
After she made her original comments on the first page we talked, as Katie is an investor she was concerned and wanted a better explanation. So I explained my idea further and where I want to go with it, and she used a personal example to illustrate the idea behind this new service.

If 2 players want to do a trade, but their items values don't equal out, say one is borrowing 20k the other only has an item they are willing to trade as collateral for 50k, they use me to balance it. They might have used CLD's in the past to equal it out and then just returned the dividends to the owner or something, but now that money is in the exchange and locked. So they use my service. The owner of the 50k item can trade it to me and know it is safe and the other person cant run away with it and profit 30k, and the lender knows that if the borrower does not return the 20k within the agreed time, that the item gets sold or given to the lender.
I am not giving out any items or ped, or renting out any items in this service. I am simply holding items in escrow so the 2 players can make the trade that they otherwise would not be able to come to terms on because they lack the capability to bridge the gap in the value between the two parties. This service is NOT for everyone. I am aware of this, I know that few people will want to use it, but there are people out there who might want to. And before anyone says anything about me stealing items, go look at my rental service page. Look how much stuff I have on there, I own about 80% of the items and 60% of the value on that page. I would never be able to liquidate it without raising red flags and getting reported. The support case shows Mindark is aware of what I do and that I would be held to a higher degree of scrutiny because of me doing trust trades in volume compared to a normal player, and that is my purpose. I want to be someone that the community knows they can trust and go to for services that require trust between parties. I find joy and fulfillment in helping players, yes I do make money doing it, but everyone else makes money when they go to work and provide a service to someone. LA owners make a profit by offering a fun place to hunt and prizes. Why is it so wrong and 'evil' for me to make a profit helping people use items otherwise out of their grasp?

 

[GoNi]

10 years ago Players already asked for a save rental system, it will never happen

 

[Mega]

You are all trading seashells on the beach and you haven't heard about the tsunami.

 

[mastermesh]

Why is it so wrong and 'evil' for me to make a profit helping people use items otherwise out of their grasp?

History has a way of repeating itself...
R&R Fund
Thread Related to R&R Fund
Pirate's Investment Fund
Hardwrath's NBK Fund Payback Post

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

History has a way of repeating itself...
R&R Fund
Thread Related to R&R Fund
Pirate's Investment Fund
Hardwrath's NBK Fund Payback Post

So did all of these people make good on their promises like Hardwrath?
These were all quite a bit before my time and I never heard of them. But I am not the only person with a player fund, there is Chlee's fund and Divinity/Morey's fund as well. I was a part of the latter for a short time.

 

[jwestonmoss]

but in the real-world they're tied by various regulations

in entropia there is zero regulation as it is not offered by the devs

the risk is almost zero using escrow services in the real world
the risk is enormous using escrow services in EU....and the whole point of using this kind of service is to limit the risk

big difference

Trust is a currency.

You are right, no one except MA has the ability to "force" anything, and they are often unwilling to intervene.

What the escrow does is establish a trusted third party in the middle that both sides trust, even if they do not trust each other. That's especially useful in the case of rentals and collateral. What's to stop the counterparty from deciding they would rather keep the collateral regardless of the terms? If they aren't holding it, but a third party whose currency is trust is holding it, the situation is different.

Not just anyone could pull off an escrow. It would have to be someone who had established themselves as honest, reliable, and stable.

 

[mastermesh]

Not just anyone could pull off an escrow. It would have to be someone who had established themselves as honest, reliable, and stable.

something a bit like a blockchain deep token... oh wait...

 

[jwestonmoss]

something a bit like a blockchain deep token... oh wait...

not even remotely similar

think it through

have you ever rented an item by putting up collateral worth more than the item you rented, and wondered what would happen if the counterparty just decided to keep your collateral and screw you? have you ever avoided renting because you didn't want to deal with that risk?

a trusted escrow service can solve that.

big renting services that already have a lot of customers probably don't need it. but individuals who would like to rent items to others, but don't have a lot of history to vouch for them, can use a trusted escrow as a way to effectively "insure" the transaction on both ends.

it is not for everyone but there definitely is a use case

 

[AndrewViperAng]

If you were to die in your sleep tonight, what happens?

(dont worry I am not a soothsayer, sleep well)

Mega pointed out my sentiments exactly!! No matter how reputable u are in the game, you can vanish without a trace (and without any responsibility too). I believe MA migrate CLD to shares system simply because to do away with CLD use as a collateral. Now gamers cannot use this CLD as collateral anymore to get quick peds, so what will happened? Depositing more and more The second reason i believe is because any single transaction (even 1 unit of share) will pay a fee to MA, thus bringing more income to MA , i have no issues with that as MA staffs need a salary too .

To be honest i am quite happy with this implementation because it will avert players getting cheat/abuse by others. If a player needs to buy an item, they will need to sell their shares to get peds first, or they can deposit (the main reason for migrating CLD).

I totally understand your kind intentions to provide good service to the EU community, but at the end of day, MA needs to find ways of getting more revenue to keep this game going too. And i have always appreciate that MA support has given to me all the years, they always do their best to resolve our issues ASAP Cheers~~

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

they always do their best to resolve our issues ASAP

Are you joking or being serious? I can't tell.

 

[AndrewViperAng]

Are you joking or being serious? I can't tell.

Hi Xanato, i am being very honest and serious here, and very appreciative of what MA has been doing, especially their support team. My account has been locked by MA for about 3 years due to some reasons. For that 3 years i have went into my account to check all my items (almost every few days i checked this items cos i really miss my account), they are all inside. So after 3 years, i wrote an email to Mr Henrik (CEO) to plea with them again, within two days MA support contacted me to justify my reasons and i finally got back my game account. Do you have any idea how much USD is inside my account? Let's keep this a secret cos its not the main point here.

MA support have been trying their best to support every users, i believe sometimes they are understaffed and really needs time to resolve our issues, and they really did it for me, and i am really grateful.

I am saying all this not to protect MA, but they are a fair company whom have treated all players fairly. This is apparent to all when they made an effort to extract out the land token, and i believe they are implementing some stuffs in the near future. And when they implement something, that thing won't be cheap, mark my words

The above is my opinion on MA, you can have your own opinion, nothing right or wrong here, cheers and stay safe

 

[Katie Chalmers]

Mindark locked your account for 3 years and you praise them for it? Are you a masochist?
mindark support can do easy things like lost loots and stuck vehicles but give them something difficult like skill points resetting upon relog and they just ignore you till you give up asking.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

The above is my opinion on MA, you can have your own opinion, nothing right or wrong here, cheers and stay safe

I can safely say your opinion is wrong here. Because it's not an opinion that support is bad. It's a fact. You know they still have not helped people who lost thousands of ped due to a convert shrapnel bug right?

Mindark locked your account for 3 years and you praise them for it? Are you a masochist?
mindark support can do easy things like lost loots and stuck vehicles but give them something difficult like skill points resetting upon relog and they just ignore you till you give up asking.

Some people love pain

 

[Deleted member 71093]

I can safely say your opinion is wrong here. Because it's not an opinion that support is bad. It's a fact. You know they still have not helped people who lost thousands of ped due to a convert shrapnel bug right?

Some people love pain

opinion:


a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance"


yeah its an opinion. support has only been good to me too so...

 

[wizz]

i mean i did find it pretty informative...
basically meaning learn to work with the game instead of against

Informative?
It's a saying for 20 years already: "Entropia is dynamic, adapt or die."

Nothing new here. Nor informative. He's just stating the obvious that everybody already knows.

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

opinion:


a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance"


yeah its an opinion. support has only been good to me too so...

I mean the industry standard is that support gets back to you within 48 business hours normally. And Although I suppose an industry standard is sort of an opinion, companies should be held to that standard. We see quite often that support just straight up won't answer people for weeks if they don't want to.

 

[AndrewViperAng]

Mindark locked your account for 3 years and you praise them for it? Are you a masochist?
mindark support can do easy things like lost loots and stuck vehicles but give them something difficult like skill points resetting upon relog and they just ignore you till you give up asking.

Hi Katie good day i am definitely not a masochist here, i am always grateful to someone who has help me out, you have to be appreciative. The amount of USD in my account is not just few thousand peds, way more than that. My point here is, if MA is a greedy company who locks/ban/confiscate user's account just for money, they can simply do that to me, but they didn't. After some reasoning they gave me back my account, should i be sad about this?

All of you here are complaining on so much grievance you have suffered, but have u guys taken a second to appreciate what MA support has done for us? Only a few staffs are supporting thousands of users here, should we take it for granted when they spent their time to help us out?

When you have issues, please be patient and write to them again, they will definitely help you, it happened to me after 3 years of long wait

Have a good Tuesday and stay safe, cheers~~

 

[Katie Chalmers]

Hi Katie good day i am definitely not a masochist here, i am always grateful to someone who has help me out, you have to be appreciative. The amount of USD in my account is not just few thousand peds, way more than that. My point here is, if MA is a greedy company who locks/ban/confiscate user's account just for money, they can simply do that to me, but they didn't. After some reasoning they gave me back my account, should i be sad about this?

All of you here are complaining on so much grievance you have suffered, but have u guys taken a second to appreciate what MA support has done for us? Only a few staffs are supporting thousands of users here, should we take it for granted when they spent their time to help us out?

When you have issues, please be patient and write to them again, they will definitely help you, it happened to me after 3 years of long wait

Have a good Tuesday and stay safe, cheers~~

It’s great that you are forgiving. . I’ll tell ya if I ever get my account locked over something stupid for any prolonged period of time (6+ months), Day one of my return I’m lodging my withdrawal. Mindark won’t get another chance with me.

and you also have a great Tuesday

 

[Angela Draniie Cloud]

All of you here are complaining on so much grievance you have suffered, but have u guys taken a second to appreciate what MA support has done for us? Only a few staffs are supporting thousands of users here, should we take it for granted when they spent their time to help us out?

What have they done? Refuse to help certain players cause support is jealous of them? Lie to us? Lock accounts for 3 years? Not ban users who are market manipulators? Bots? Alts?

 

[AndrewViperAng]

It’s great that you are forgiving. . I’ll tell ya if I ever get my account locked over something stupid for any prolonged period of time (6+ months), Day one of my return I’m lodging my withdrawal. Mindark won’t get another chance with me.

and you also have a great Tuesday

Thanks Katie Yap forgiveness is noble trait, but in my case i am the one who breached their rules, i have no reasons to feel indignant; only with gratefulness

When we are trying hard to achieve something, please don't give up fighting for it, if you have strong justifications just keep writing to them (but don't spam lol), miracles can happen, at least it happened to me and am so so happy haha, cheers~~

 

[Xanato Xan Kaso]

but in my case i am the one who breached their rules,

That changes the entire context of your story and you didnt include that in your first post.

 

[SoberPhil]

Thanks Katie Yap forgiveness is noble trait, but in my case i am the one who breached their rules, i have no reasons to feel indignant; only with gratefulness

When we are trying hard to achieve something, please don't give up fighting for it, if you have strong justifications just keep writing to them (but don't spam lol), miracles can happen, at least it happened to me and am so so happy haha, cheers~~

I think you're just happy that the value of your investment just went up significantly. There's nothing wrong with being happy and appreciative, I mean I'd be happy too, but the reasoning still matters you know.

 

[AndrewViperAng]

I think you're just happy that the value of your investment just went up significantly. There's nothing wrong with being happy and appreciative, I mean I'd be happy too, but the reasoning still matters you know.

Hi mate good day. It's not just about my investment and money, all the rare items inside my inventory are more precious than USD, because some of them are limited editions. So when i received forgiveness from MA support, i was so damn happy and excited and grateful haha

I am just saying that MA is trying their best to make this game better, of cos they need to earn a profit to support their staffs concurrently. When something changes, do not whine and cry, don't blame it on others either, instead try to change your strategies and adapt to the game again, it's the same in real life. Adversity Quotient (AQ) plays a big part in this.

Lastly i like your quote haha, reminds me of "The darker the night, the brighter the stars". It is at the darkest hour of the night that the stars shine most radiantly. it was quoted in Fyodor Dostoevsky "Crime and Punishment"

Have a great evening and cheers~~