FYI: Chipping out is flawed

[Henceforth]

There is a big flaw in the system for chipping out skills.

When chipping out skills there will only be fitted whole points in the chip, and the last part of the ESI is given back in PEC/PED
At lower points this is no problem because it will only would be about 1 to 10 PEC.
But at higher skillpoints the points will consist of far more gains for 1 point so the PEC giveback will be much larger.

Then if you chip out allot like around 2k PED TT ESI of the same skill, every PEC giveback added together would be big in total. So you waste allot of PED in markup on that.

Example: on 9500 points and you chip out 10 points that would cost about 10.13 PED ESI, so if you chip that out with an ESI of 11 PED you will get back 87 PEC because one extra point would not fit in the chip.

You can chip it out with a bigger ESI but even then you can get back 35 PEC with ease.

There is an easy solution.

The ESI's should not only be able to put in whole points while chipping out, but also the extra gains untill the ESI is filled up completely.

Also the Skillchips are counted as gains in total anyway and not in points, because someone at lower level will get from the same size skillchip more points than a higher skilled person.

 

[Red Rocket]

All you have to do is buy an ESI, which after chipping out with it, still has 10 ped TT on it and you can just auction it or whatever.


But yeah, eventually someone will suffer from the end of the esi lol

 

[nlnforever]

It depends on how smart you are when chipping out . Nothing new in this topic.

 

[Pauhe Gunor]

your worried about PEC here when you loose 10% for chipping

 

[Gluepot]

your worried about PEC here when you loose 10% for chipping

Losing 10% for chipping is a good thing, though I think it should be 10% lost when chipping in rather than out...

 

[Xen]

It depends on how smart you are when chipping out . Nothing new in this topic.

Really? So for example you know exactly what size small esi's to use so none is wasted when chipping out from 9786.8 of a skill?

--

For OP: Yes, you are right, and it's one reason why large esi's sell for a higher %.

 

[nlnforever]

Really? So for example you know exactly what size small esi's to use so none is wasted when chipping out from 9786.8 of a skill?

--

For OP: Yes, you are right, and it's one reason why large esi's sell for a higher %.

Tools are already available out there, just go and search for it. I think that you are tricking me. Because you are elite member with 4k posts, you must know those tools. We always use them to calculate before chipping out.

 

[Henceforth]

Tools are already available out there, just go and search for it. I think that you are tricking me. Because you are elite member with 4k posts, you must know those tools. We always use them to calculate before chipping out.

Its easy to see how much TT ESI is needed in total for each skill, but to calculate exactly every bit to fit in the right ESI is realy painfull.

Example:

I have 9556 LWT and that is needed 2221.36 PED TT ESI, if I fill in 9555 points, it needs 2220.41 So that means 1 point is worth 0.95 TT

So if you dont find the right ESI size you end up with close to 1 PED TT ESI payback in PED, wich in his turn will cost more than 8 PED you wasted including markup. Follow this through a few 100 times and then you end up with big loss.

 

[Coop_]

So if you dont find the right ESI size you end up with close to 1 PED TT ESI payback in PED, wich in his turn will cost more than 8 PED you wasted including markup. Follow this through a few 100 times and then you end up with big loss.

I agree, the system is sloppy, and thx for pointing it out.

Question for you: If you start with, say 5615.5 skills, when you chip out say 1000 points, do you end up with 4615.5? Or 4615.0?

 

[wizzszz]

Its easy to see how much TT ESI is needed in total for each skill, but to calculate exactly every bit to fit in the right ESI is realy painfull.

Example:

I have 9556 LWT and that is needed 2221.36 PED TT ESI, if I fill in 9555 points, it needs 2220.41 So that means 1 point is worth 0.95 TT

So if you dont find the right ESI size you end up with close to 1 PED TT ESI payback in PED, wich in his turn will cost more than 8 PED you wasted including markup. Follow this through a few 100 times and then you end up with big loss.

I don't really see the problem - make sure your ESI is a bit smaller than the skillpoints you want to chip out or make sure your remaining ESI will be more than 10 PED TT...

and a skillpoint isn't worth 0.95 TT ESI - the 9556th point is...

 

[Rayne Jade]

1) True, the system is sloppy and confusing.
2) True, there are tools out there that can help you get close to accurate.
3) There is a penalty for chipping out

All that being said, why shouldn't it be? Every part of EU was once a mystery but thanks to the people like Jimmy B, Witte, Jdegre (and many others) some of those mysteries are close to being solved. Part of the appeal to me is the mystery and figuring it all out.

As for the penalty for chipping out... should not be a surprise folks. Why in the world would MA/FPC not penalize someone for that? Their goal, for the obvious reasons, is to keep people ingame and playing. Transfering skills was introduced in VU 6.1 dated 6 OCT 2004:

Teaching system
A system for transferring skill levels between avatars is introduced. The system works with skill implants which functions as skill holders. The system dynamically handles how the advanced skill system in Project Entropia works, and shows the results when checking out an active skill implant.

VU 8.3 (24 APR 2006) saw the GSI become the ESI.

VU 8.7 (1 NOV 2006) saw the overhaul of the ESI to a (L) item with a max TT of 1250 PED.

Chipping out will almost always be viewed at a step toward leaving the game, and therefore the penalty. I know there are those that do not leave after chipping out... no need to mention that (I have chipped out and sold skills I no longer use).

 

[Wolverine Queen]

8ped isnt really that much

 

[Coop_]

8ped isnt really that much

Times hundreds of chips it adds up.

 

[Henceforth]

I don't really see the problem - make sure your ESI is a bit smaller than the skillpoints you want to chip out or make sure your remaining ESI will be more than 10 PED TT...

and a skillpoint isn't worth 0.95 TT ESI - the 9556th point is...

Offcourse I know that last point is worth the 0.95 PED and not every point.

 

[Henceforth]

I agree, the system is sloppy, and thx for pointing it out.

Question for you: If you start with, say 5615.5 skills, when you chip out say 1000 points, do you end up with 4615.5? Or 4615.0?

I dont know exaclty, it could be that you get even 4615.9 because 1000 points lesser means lesser gains are needed for a whole point, so the bar will show more progress towards the next point than it did before you chipped out the 1k points.

 

[Xen]

Tools are already available out there, just go and search for it. I think that you are tricking me. Because you are elite member with 4k posts, you must know those tools. We always use them to calculate before chipping out.

I'm not trying to trick you, you said if you were smart there isn't a problem, so I wanted you to enlighten us. However, I don't think you understood exactly the op's point (and that's not meant as an insult).

 

[Xen]

I have 9556 LWT and that is needed 2221.36 PED TT ESI, if I fill in 9555 points, it needs 2220.41 So that means 1 point is worth 0.95 TT

Have you tried that? I don't think that will work because the tool is not that precise.

For example, I've taken out an esi of skill, and then the next, larger esi I took out removed less skill (points). The skill curve is not smooth.

 

[Rayne Jade]

There is no constant conversion for skills to TT value. It depends on how many skills you already have. A 50 TT chip will affect individually, not generally. Looking at the item details will show you how many you will have after inserting the chip, but there is only the known tools to estimate the value of the chip when chipping out.

 

[jdegre]

There is no constant conversion for skills to TT value. It depends on how many skills you already have. A 50 TT chip will affect individually, not generally. Looking at the item details will show you how many you will have after inserting the chip, but there is only the known tools to estimate the value of the chip when chipping out.

I don't think henceforth meant that 1 skill point equals 0.95 TT at all skill levels; I think he tried to put an example of how bad the skill rounding could be _at that particular skill level_.

Have you tried that? I don't think that will work because the tool is not that precise.

this cannot be stressed enough. the current tools out there (doer's, carebear's, mine..) were designed to make estimations of avatar's skill values, estimations of a best path to reach a certain professional level, etc., but none of them is accurate enough for calculations of +- 1 skill point, especially at those skill levels (> 9k).

For example, I've taken out an esi of skill, and then the next, larger esi I took out removed less skill (points). The skill curve is not smooth.

this effect is not related to a lack of accuracy in the calculations; it is related to the way the growth of the skill curve was designed by MA. the curve is actually smooth, but the growth rate increases and decreases following a sinusoid with a periodicity of 500 skill points. 1 point of skill at around multiples of 500 skill points is worth "more ESI" (and consequently, you experience a slowdown while skilling).

 

[Xen]

I don't think henceforth meant that 1 skill point equals 0.95 TT at all skill levels; I think he tried to put an example of how bad the skill rounding could be _at that particular skill level_.




this cannot be stressed enough. the current tools out there (doer's, carebear's, mine..) were designed to make estimations of avatar's skill values, estimations of a best path to reach a certain professional level, etc., but none of them is accurate enough for calculations of +- 1 skill point, especially at those skill levels (> 9k).



this effect is not related to a lack of accuracy in the calculations; it is related to the way the growth of the skill curve was designed by MA. the curve is actually smooth, but the growth rate increases and decreases following a sinusoid with a periodicity of 500 skill points. 1 point of skill at around multiples of 500 skill points is worth "more ESI" (and consequently, you experience a slowdown while skilling).

Hehe, by "smooth" I did not mean the mathematical definition of "smooth". I meant what you explained there, basically, without that level of understanding.

And thanks again for the chipping optimizer and skill scanner, the are immensely useful.

 

[Doer]

It is pretty sloppy, i agree. FWIW, i was pretty successful at chipping out small quantities of skill to reduce my looted ESIs to 10.1x value for a while using the calculator (whereupon i sold them), but it's cumbersome to use this way because you have to find the difference in two skill volumes yourself by trial and error with the calculator.

 

[Henceforth]

Also in the end chipping out in to many small ESI's will also cost you allot more inserter decay. So it would be best to use bigger ESI's and save the small ones for the last parts.

 

[IsawAmouse]

Losing 10% for chipping is a good thing, though I think it should be 10% lost when chipping in rather than out...

dont you worry about this , it is calculated already .. you loose when you skill crafting or hunting or you name it -you loose even when you try your new shoes after you lost crafting them- and not only 10%