Developer-Notes--2

[hogfather]

I can't understand why you can't see where eco matters.

A player with high efficiency (low cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 5 ped. Over 10k mobs killed (pure example), his costs would be 50k ped. With 90% returns he'd get back 45k pre MU. Minus 5k ped

player with low efficiency (high cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 8 ped. Over 10k mobs killed his costs would be 80k ped. With 90% he'd get back 72k ped. Minus 8 k ped, or 3k ped more than the efficient guy.

Yes, it matters. Higher cost to kill may bring back bigger globals and HOFs, but in the long run it will also make your pedcard bleed more.

 

[Cail]

Which tests have you seen? I did some tests myself and studied tests by other people. They surely DON'T show that loot correlates to kills but correlates more with costs. I mean, you can clearly see that, it takes just a bit of mathematics knowledge, not even high school knowledge. Yet people can say "oh you're wrong", just because.

If you bother to read what i said, i did not say that the "loot correlates to kills", i just said you may buy more tickets to this lottery with more kills.
And that is what you want, more kills, with the same amount peds spent, that means being efficient.

 

[Jimmy B]

I can't understand why you can't see where eco matters.

A player with high efficiency (low cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 5 ped. Over 10k mobs killed (pure example), his costs would be 50k ped. With 90% returns he'd get back 45k pre MU. Minus 5k ped

player with low efficiency (high cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 8 ped. Over 10k mobs killed his costs would be 80k ped. With 90% he'd get back 72k ped. Minus 8 k ped, or 3k ped more than the efficient guy.

Yes, it matters. Higher cost to kill may bring back bigger globals and HOFs, but in the long run it will also make your pedcard bleed more.

I don't really understand that logic. When they've both cycled 100k PED, they've both lost 10k PED right? One has just killed more mobs than the other.

 

[Mega]

Yeah, we get all the good stuff!

And us.

 

[uni_corn]

this could be a result of the surveys which have been made.

i estimate the results of the surveys that most people told that they cut off cause loot return.

so can be that there was made a change now to aim larger player base or there wasnt a change at all but what im not quite sure now is why they are explicitly comment that the players did a wrong observation/field tests.

that leaves me a flaw feeling. someone responsible is here pointed at. there is no need to meantion something towards the players. a simple statement how it actually works would have done the job. now is like "it was all a missunderstanding by alot players"... why is needed to point responsibility here? too much social unrests armed at the company lately? when there was never a player individual lootpool why did the company no afford to stop missleading information which was spread? was it profitable enough to let people run that way until now people get angry, frustrated? "now its gets heated we need to point responsibility towards them?" would be a great basis for further business relations...

how do they want to catch up the situation now when EU was living from living large over its condition?

for the loot thing:
one possibility could be that the field test have been made on a lonely area where no other hunters where around and that shooting a spawn heats a spawn up until it globals or hofs.

i started myself in EU with hunting big snabel on the same spot always with opalo and a101 and the return was quite at 90% sometimes more. after some time in the same area every day i globalled on them.

when i hunted snables i thought that the spawn got more dense after some time. after i globalled and have not been there some days there was not much snables around anymore.

is a spawn growing with its triggering?

big mobs could be a indicator for shooting an area up. get low loot or global/hof after some time to be fine again.

mobs like levi or scoria give all or nothing.

have you ever hunted alot in an area and seen that loot changed after someone else hoffed in the area you have been?

 

[falkao]

... If they decide how much a mob should loot, and a player uses the average cost, he gets 90%. However if he uses LESS than average, he should get more than 90%. Yet he doesn't. Alternatively, players that use MORE than the average cost, still get 90%. Unless someone has some tests comparing very eco and very uneco hunting and shows major variations from 90%?

Their concept is quite simple. Basically it is

payout% = L/(D + C), where L is loot, D is decay and C is direct cost (might be bombs, ammo, ingredients).

C is random. You can see this on a gun with the dmg you do. In this case it has a uniform distribution and as with every random variable it will have a mean and standard deviation.

L is also random, it has a large variance but it's mean does correspond to the mean of C, i.e. mean(L) = mean(C).

D is random as well and here you're skills do get involved as well as your playing style. That's all. If you're able to get a low mean on D then you're on the bright side.
Furthermore, the mean of payout% can't be > 100% and the mean of D can't be 0, hence payout% will be less than 100%. What MA did confirm is that L does not depend on the avatar, nothing else.

There were several tests on this matter. One was Ace with double bombing and there was Konve's insane mining .

Both activities were proven as uneco and did lead to lower then assumed returns.

 

[falkao]

...
i estimate the results of the surveys that most people told that they cut off cause loot return.

They didn't change anything about loot. The post might be related to the survey as MA finally understood that all those theories might be counterproductive.

 

[hogfather]

I don't really understand that logic. When they've both cycled 100k PED, they've both lost 10k PED right? One has just killed more mobs than the other.

You are forgetting the equation of time.

In the above example, when high efficiency player has cycled 100k PED, the unefficient one would have cycled 160k. That would mean 60k more in deposits for the same amount of time.



True, numbers are exaggerated but you get the idea.

 

[Audrey Cheerful]

I can't wait for Developer-Notes--3: Armageddon!

 

[danimal01]

This

~Danimal

 

[Xen]

I don't really understand that logic. When they've both cycled 100k PED, they've both lost 10k PED right? One has just killed more mobs than the other.

Right, and completed more missions, gotten more skill and attribute rewards, bought more tickets for the ATH lottery, or more tickets for special event loots, and enjoyed more time for their money.

And that's not counting if higher dam/pec gives you a higher % tt return.

 

[mrproper]

If you bother to read what i said, i did not say that the "loot correlates to kills", i just said you may buy more tickets to this lottery with more kills.
And that is what you want, more kills, with the same amount peds spent, that means being efficient.

Yeah, but the tickets are cheaper and so is the jackpot

The same reasoning goes for hunting a smaller maturity or smaller HP mob, you get more tickets, but that doesn't translate in more chances to win the same pot. And I'm not even into the lottery thing, I just want to hunt for a known cost over the long term, because I enjoy hunting.

I don't deny being eco helps you kill more mobs, possibly loot more of a desired item, or in a more constant flow. Might even get more markup from eco loot, but by TT standards, going uneco is not as horrible as it looks.

 

[Martin Perway]

Look guys, its SO simple to understand but you feel the need to call MA liars and crap. Eco DOES matter for the simple fact that, think of the game like video poker. Assuming you play PERFECT strategy, there is a set max payout percent, lets just throw out a number, 98% assuming you're playing PERFECT mathmatical strategy on video poker. However, if you are not playing perfect strategy, you get less than 98%. Same thing in EU, assuming you are playing the most eco possible, you'll achieve that payout %. However, if you're playing less eco, your payout % goes down. Simple, stop overcomplicating it. Thank you MA, this was long overdue and I feel much more comfortable knowing that everyone, regardless of how much you have spent, has equal chance to hit a big one. Its like video poker, think of it that way and its really easy to understand.

 

[danimal01]

Look guys, its SO simple to understand but you feel the need to call MA liars and crap. Eco DOES matter for the simple fact that, think of the game like video poker. Assuming you play PERFECT strategy, there is a set max payout percent, lets just throw out a number, 98% assuming you're playing PERFECT mathmatical strategy on video poker. However, if you are not playing perfect strategy, you get less than 98%. Same thing in EU, assuming you are playing the most eco possible, you'll achieve that payout %. However, if you're playing less eco, your payout % goes down. Simple, stop overcomplicating it. Thank you MA, this was long overdue and I feel much more comfortable knowing that everyone, regardless of how much you have spent, has equal chance to hit a big one. Its like video poker, think of it that way and its really easy to understand.

I dont know why you quoted me for... I never ever called MA lairs. Unquote me please and go read my actual post

~Danimal

 

[mrproper]

Look guys, its SO simple to understand but you feel the need to call MA liars and crap. Eco DOES matter for the simple fact that, think of the game like video poker. Assuming you play PERFECT strategy, there is a set max payout percent, lets just throw out a number, 98% assuming you're playing PERFECT mathmatical strategy on video poker. However, if you are not playing perfect strategy, you get less than 98%. Same thing in EU, assuming you are playing the most eco possible, you'll achieve that payout %. However, if you're playing less eco, your payout % goes down. Simple, stop overcomplicating it. Thank you MA, this was long overdue and I feel much more comfortable knowing that everyone, regardless of how much you have spent, has equal chance to hit a big one. Its like video poker, think of it that way and its really easy to understand.

The perfect strategy gets you 90% in EU. And the average strategy gets you 90% again. And the less than optimal strategy gets you a bit less than 90%.

Where does the wasted ped go to? It certainly doesn't go to the optimal players. Is MA actually complaining that people play stupid and they get too much money as a result?

 

[Uvas]

The perfect strategy gets you 90% in EU. And the average strategy gets you 90% again. And the less than optimal strategy gets you a bit less than 90%.

Where does the wasted ped go to? It certainly doesn't go to the optimal players. Is MA actually complaining that people play stupid and they get too much money as a result?

I think these notes are designed to help players play correctly. Such as not wasting peds and time on personal loot pool theory. They probably are looking to minimize the whining by leading us down a more correct path. A happy playerbase is important.

 

[Silvia Universe]

Threads like this actually reveal who has brains and who don't...and I am really surprised by some of the outcomes!!!

 

[Infinity01]

Like Skilling Villains, you mean?

not sure about that... but definitely like this...

needs an explanation!

Thus some very eco players could make more than 90% and some will make less, but the average always stands at roughly 90%.

It's possible, but in my observation, playing side by side in team didnt' work for me...(but it was simple observation for multole short runs. I had consistently worse TT returns

 

[Xen]

not sure about that... but definitely like this...

needs an explanation!

The "explanation" is that was years ago when they weren't shared loot and only high skilled teams could kill them.

This last time they were shared loot and low/medium skilled avatars got nice items.

So I don't know what you are complaining about. Just seems like more whining about high skilled players having any sort of advantage.

 

[Martin Perway]

The perfect strategy gets you 90% in EU. And the average strategy gets you 90% again. And the less than optimal strategy gets you a bit less than 90%.

Where does the wasted ped go to? It certainly doesn't go to the optimal players. Is MA actually complaining that people play stupid and they get too much money as a result?

And you are wrong. Lets say perfect strategy, on a run, I spend 500ped on ammo, gun decay, and armor decay. Lets say I get 400ped in loot. What if I could reduce my initial cost from 500ped to like 480, thats a higher % return. It's common sense, I dont see your logic.

 

[Infinity01]

The "explanation" is that was years ago when they weren't shared loot and only high skilled teams could kill them.

This last time they were shared loot and low/medium skilled avatars got nice items.

So I don't know what you are complaining about. Just seems like more whining about high skilled players having any sort of advantage.

It's not whinning...

I'm talking about the drop rate..from the hydra during that event.. and drop rate of items during the recent bot events when everybody was shooting!

To minimize your work here we go again... have a look and then have your say:

 

[RickEngland]

Honestly Rick, I just don't have the energy to "debate" this so-called game anymore (because it is boring), I just found it comical that people strive for months, even years, to gain skills... only to become "too skilled". So I simply gave a short comment/question with a face-palm smiley. .

apoligies for biting at you, problem with text is you dont always feel the tone of posts, when I'm sure you intended it be funny. so sorry about that.

Anyhow turns out that my poor loot this evening had nothing to do with my gun at all. It was becasue my storage was not as tidy as it should've been, I hadn't visited my apartment in a few days, and I was wearing the wrong colour underwear to suit the mob.

Good night, and good luck.

Rick

 

[Jimmy B]

A player with high efficiency (low cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 5 ped. Over 10k mobs killed (pure example), his costs would be 50k ped. With 90% returns he'd get back 45k pre MU. Minus 5k ped

player with low efficiency (high cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 8 ped. Over 10k mobs killed his costs would be 80k ped. With 90% he'd get back 72k ped. Minus 8 k ped, or 3k ped more than the efficient guy.

I don't really understand that logic. When they've both cycled 100k PED, they've both lost 10k PED right? One has just killed more mobs than the other.

Right, and completed more missions, gotten more skill and attribute rewards, bought more tickets for the ATH lottery, or more tickets for special event loots, and enjoyed more time for their money.

And that's not counting if higher dam/pec gives you a higher % tt return.

Well yes to your initial points, and if higher dam/pec gives you a higher % tt return yes, but that wasn't implied as the case in the context of the quote I was replying to. My point was that I don't think MA were saying that efficiency matters for the reason that hogfather was implying. I could be wrong.

 

[Xen]

It's not whinning...

I'm talking about the drop rate..from the hydra during that event.. and drop rate of items during the recent bot events when everybody was shooting!

Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how item drop rate in events fits into this eco/loot pool discussion, nor the relevance of loots from an event years ago that is structured differently today...

 

[mrproper]

And you are wrong. Lets say perfect strategy, on a run, I spend 500ped on ammo, gun decay, and armor decay. Lets say I get 400ped in loot. What if I could reduce my initial cost from 500ped to like 480, thats a higher % return. It's common sense, I dont see your logic.

How can you improve a perfect strategy?! I don't see YOUR logic.

Do you think if you reduce your costs you get the same reward? Why don't you go out and test that, see how it works for you.

 

[Infinity01]

Maybe I missed something, but I don't understand how item drop rate in events fits into this eco/loot pool discussion, nor the relevance of loots from an event years ago that is structured differently today...

Selective amnesia is good... especially to those who control things and for the ppl who benefitted from them

and yes you've missed something!

The relevance is linked to personal loot pool.... and randomness of loot... it's not a rocket science...

Read the original post here!

 

[Chrome]

 

[dr3w]

It's not whinning...

I'm talking about the drop rate..from the hydra during that event.. and drop rate of items during the recent bot events when everybody was shooting!

To minimize your work here we go again... have a look and then have your say:

I hope mods will stop that rainbow diarrhea soon. I really hope.

 

[JohnCapital]

--Mod's note--

I hope mods will stop that rainbow diarrhea soon. I really hope.

Actually I have to agree. Infinity01, if you insist on harping on that Hydra event issue, please make a new thread for it.

Little reminder:

3.1 - Spamming/Flooding/Trolling
The following are NOT permitted on PlanetCalypsoForum:

• Spamming - Posting the same thread in multiple forums, or posting the same post in multiple threads, or sending unsolicited private messages to members.
• Flooding - Posting many times in succession in a single thread.
• Trolling - Constant harassment of a member, or repeated off-topic and/or rude posts in a thread.

Depending on severity, content in violation of this rule will be edited or deleted, and may result in a temporary or permanent ban from the forum, all without notice.

Your posts here can be seen as either Spamming of Flooding, depending how you want to look at it, so please knock it off.
--/Mod's note--

MrProper, as for you, I was not saying you are forced to drop your beliefs. Just don't hold onto them fanatically.

You know me. You've seen my threads for years now, well back into VU9 about just this subject. How weapons affect loot, etc. I think I'm the person who brought the opalo+E-15 tests back into style. (They were a bit fashionable for a while back before the amp nerfs and you could stick any amp onto an opalo.)

I'm not saying all my/our data is now worthless. I'm simply saying that since MA themselves say there's no personal loot tracking system, then there must be some other explanation for the results we seen.

It's our job to determine what that other explanation may be.

 

[Silvia Universe]

The MMO Gamer: Some of this, say, killing mobs and hoping they drop something so you can get your money back, sounds a bit like playing a slot machine. Do you have to deal with any online gambling regulations with Entropia?

David Simmonds: No. We’re under the regulations of Sweden, and we’re not classed as gambling.

Every avatar inside Entropia Universe is a very skill-based system. We have over two hundred skills which make up an avatar, and this makes every avatar inside Entropia Universe unique. There’s not one avatar with the same skills as another. And, depending on what skills you have, what equipment you use, what things you want to do, whether you’re hunting or mining, will depend on what kind of return you get.

If you’re frivolous and just go out there and shoot your gun in the air, of course you’re going to lose money, the same in the real world. But, if you’re a smart businessman, a smart hunter, or a smart gamer in the real world, there’s a very good chance you’re going to be a smart businessman, gamer, hunter in our world.


http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=300