Developer-Notes--2

[Martin Perway]

How can you improve a perfect strategy?! I don't see YOUR logic.

Do you think if you reduce your costs you get the same reward? Why don't you go out and test that, see how it works for you.

Um yes, I do. If you read the thread topic you would see that MA even confirms this. You obviouisly are commenting on a thread topic which you dont even understand.

 

[Infinity01]

--Mod's note--


Actually I have to agree. Infinity01, if you insist on harping on that Hydra event issue, please make a new thread for it.

LOL, yes i agreee with that too!
and no I won't make any new thread...not needed.
I was just pointing out the obvious how MA treats players groups differently!
That's all. But i was overdoing it ... agreed!!!!

I retire from this thread.....
And I hope you are acting on your own sense.... and not after conversation with other mods/calypso stuff!

If the first one is true... I'd be happy and applaud you
if it is the second one...then I'd be angry!
GL

 

[RickEngland]

If the first one is true... I'd be happy and applaud you
if it is the second one...then I'd be angry!
GL

LOL...i'm trying to go to bed, just as the scandal is kicking off.

 

[Artrat]

There are clearly two things:
- using uneco gear (not specified if UL lvl 100 weps used at lower lvls, or not yet SIB weps and tools) will result in penalties, expenses are not returned. Also doing stupid shit like shooting dead mobs, bombing the same place after no hits and crafting unskilled BPs will not be compensated.
- there is no loot or expenses tracking, if you have a bad day, then those losses are forever, if you get a big hof, you get to keep it forever.

Both of these have not been confirmed by any test that I know of. The tests that I linked to contradict the dev notes in some manner.

No, they do not, that is just how you have interpreted them.

Unless someone has some tests comparing very eco and very uneco hunting and shows major variations from 90%?

Yes, tests have been done. Read my damn log. I haven't done any graphs or analysis yet, but for starters compare my CP results with my results on Argo's and Bots. CP was with DOALM + Evil, Argos were with maxed SIB weapons.

Not skilled enough, misses. Too skilled, misses. Because logic



Yes, please click the links I posted in this topic.

As I have explained in several posts, these do not in any way constitute scientific proof. Neither does my log. They are just data that can be analysed and interpreted in many different ways. I interpret those results very differently to the way you do. Perhaps I can get the Muppets to sing it for you?

Anyway, I'll shut up now and go find some evidence....

Yes, please do that. Although no doubt you will again assume that it proves something.

 

[mastermesh]

As I have explained in several posts, these do not in any way constitute scientific proof. Neither does my log. They are just data that can be analysed and interpreted in many different ways. I interpret those results very differently to the way you do. Perhaps I can get the Muppets to sing it for you?

Not sure on that muppet song, but this one's pretty interesting:

 

[valentin]

It's not whinning...

I'm talking about the drop rate..from the hydra during that event.. and drop rate of items during the recent bot events when everybody was shooting!

To minimize your work here we go again... have a look and then have your say:

I have been to killing 122 Hydra, we who shot never came near that kind of loot....

 

[Casay]

While I agree that misses are annoying, especially when six stack up as a mob chews on you, this statement that increasing skills does not decrease misses has been made a few times, and doesn't agree with the facts. HA on a weapon accurately reflect how many misses you will have, period. This has been established repeatedly.

Now, any skills beyond those to MAX HA don't affect misses, and while that's annoying, it is consistent with the game economy mechanism and, as you say, doesn't matter as long as it is handled the same for all.

But HA does determine misses.

Sorry sweety, I just don't experience that. I have the same amount of misses with a 10/10 weapon as I do with 7.4/10. Unless 7.4/10 with an unlimited weapon = 10/10 with unlimited one. (It shouldn't?????)

I've have the opportunity due to many dear friends in this place, as I'm sure you have, to try a variety of weapons. X5 unlimited with 10/10 = same # misses as Impk3 unlimited 7.0/10(well this was better) , MM Unlimited 7.4/10.
BL1300 limited with 10/10 = same # misses as above handguns.
<put here variety of 10/10 rifles / handguns> all the same
Oddly, I missed the least with the Impk3 of ANY weapon I've ever used... go figure.. My rifle skills are lower than my handgun. I've sat and counted for 200 ped+ runs over and over and over... maybe it's something to do with my connection.. I dunno.. and overall.. anymore.. don't care.. not caring is really the sad part I think since I so used to love this place.

Oh and Chrome... I got your face palm... I thought the same thing when I first read 'too skilled' .. especially when the OP suggests that skills matter. Umm anyone buying? 5k USD for everything

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Edit: Made a own thread for this particular subject, as it seems to be a common concern

This last time they were shared loot and low/medium skilled avatars got nice items.

For a brief while yes, then they removed them, adjusted the loot tables and put them in again; because noobs where looting uber items.

Quote removed, I had misunderstood it's context, but I still believe they did.

 

[Strash]

I see a balance in this game sadly i also have less time to play...

it's interesting... perhaps it's the amount of time i played....
such as 5 outta 7 days were bad
and being able to sustain through the 5 days to get to the 6-7 and 'refund' i mean check out my log i rubberbanded then well i modified adapted and gain... well i guess some 'understanding'

but who knows....

I always say this ... Do what you enjoy and when you enjoy, you will recieve joy.



Perhaps in my life i will lose what i gain and gain what i lose.

 

[girtsn]

This is quite interesting Artrat - I guess unmaxed DOALM? Mind sharing your BLP sniper profstandings? I did CP grinding with not yet maxed DOA, and got my usual ~90% + MU.
I guess this is then what MA calls inefficient, in terms of skills.

I haven't done any graphs or analysis yet, but for starters compare my CP results with my results on Argo's and Bots. CP was with DOALM + Evil, Argos were with maxed SIB weapons.

 

[remontoire]

For a brief while yes, then they removed them, adjusted the loot tables and put them in again; because noobs where looting uber items.

Do you have any evidence of this? Or are you simply refering to teh original, non-shared loot vs shared loot Hydras?

 

[girtsn]

Your logic is flawed. You are not describing eco nor dmg/pec. This is more turnover vs. less turnover. Of course if return is 90% the one with the highest turnover will lose more. Ofcourse there is still MU, 90% is on TT (I love how often people "forget" this). So if your guy with "low efficiency" looted a couple of ESIs while the other got nada, he wins.

I can't understand why you can't see where eco matters.

A player with high efficiency (low cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 5 ped. Over 10k mobs killed (pure example), his costs would be 50k ped. With 90% returns he'd get back 45k pre MU. Minus 5k ped

player with low efficiency (high cost to kill and defense costs) kills mob A with a cost of 8 ped. Over 10k mobs killed his costs would be 80k ped. With 90% he'd get back 72k ped. Minus 8 k ped, or 3k ped more than the efficient guy.

 

[girtsn]

Lol, yea MA cares who gets best items in the events. If it's not ubers they cry blood as well.

For a brief while yes, then they removed them, adjusted the loot tables and put them in again; because noobs where looting uber items.

 

[girtsn]

Hehe, this is the perfect quote for those who believe mining in one spot and shooting in air will be compensated. Thanks + rep.

The MMO Gamer: ...If you’re frivolous and just go out there and shoot your gun in the air, of course you’re going to lose money, the same in the real world...

 

[girtsn]

If you say eco|perfect game=dmg/pec I say bullshit. If you say eco|perfect game=efficiency (doing smart things), hell yea.

Eco DOES matter for the simple fact that, think of the game like video poker. Assuming you play PERFECT strategy, there is a set max payout percent, lets just throw out a number, 98% assuming you're playing PERFECT mathmatical strategy on video poker. However, if you are not playing perfect strategy, you get less than 98%. Same thing in EU, assuming you are playing the most eco possible, you'll achieve that payout %. However, if you're playing less eco, your payout % goes down. Simple, stop overcomplicating it.

 

[Artrat]

This is quite interesting Artrat - I guess unmaxed DOALM? Mind sharing your BLP sniper profstandings? I did CP grinding with not yet maxed DOA, and got my usual ~90% + MU.
I guess this is then what MA calls inefficient, in terms of skills.

Yes, definitely unmaxed . I was level 27-30 over the course of the runs. I observed a "garaunteed base loot" of about 40% over each ~1200 ped run with everything over that coming from globals. Average returns were 60-70%. In order to do a proper comparison I need to do some more runs up there with maxed SIB, which was my original plan before MA messed with the missions. I will still hopefully do that at a later stage.

But I did experience a very clear improvement in my average returns in later hunts using maxed SIB, however they are on different mobs so the experiment is "contaminated". I've seen enough to satisfy myself that using non-maxed weapons will decrease average return though.

 

[mrproper]

Um yes, I do. If you read the thread topic you would see that MA even confirms this. You obviouisly are commenting on a thread topic which you dont even understand.

No no, you are mistaking. I am commenting on your logic, which you don't even understand. Pay attention, you said:
- suppose I play PERFECTLY, then I get regular returns
- suppose then I play MORE PERFECTLIER, I should get above regular returns

Do you understand your mistake now? It's not about this thread or any topic but your decision to combat me by using faulty logic and still have the guts to call me out on things when your definition of perfection allows higher degrees of improvements.

these do not in any way constitute scientific proof.

What is scientific proof for you? I guess nothing can ever be scientific proof for some people. Are you one of those people? Just curious, I mean, what should your log have to be considered scientific proof?

 

[girtsn]

Agreed and thanks for the input, very useful. My small tests with a noob avatar said about the same thing. Using unmaxed guns is in no way 90% tt return.

I've seen enough to satisfy myself that using non-maxed weapons will decrease average return though.

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

For a brief while yes, then they removed them, adjusted the loot tables and put them in again; because noobs where looting uber items.

I was a little far away to catch the question in my log but I got the reply (and the reaction indicates that the question was what i believe it was), and this was the answer given while they where not spawning.

Please remove this post.

It is based on a misconception of a quote taken completely out of context and twisted from its original meaning, as I pointed out in your thread about it.

What really happened was that someone said only ubers got nice loot during the event. Charlie countered that with this comment, saying that is not true and that non ubers had looted uber items.

This quote was in no way related to the reason Hydras were removed.

 

[hogfather]

Your logic is flawed. You are not describing eco nor dmg/pec. This is more turnover vs. less turnover. Of course if return is 90% the one with the highest turnover will lose more. Ofcourse there is still MU, 90% is on TT (I love how often people "forget" this). So if your guy with "low efficiency" looted a couple of ESIs while the other got nada, he wins.

"Forgetting" MU is what this thread seems to be all about, as players these days seem focused on big HOFs and ATHs and not MU. The most efficient way to hunt is to keep your costs as low as possible, so you can kill more mobs for the same amount of ped and get more chances to loot something with higher MU like ESIs or items. That is why there is value in mod faps and such even if your TT returns per mob are lower to keep with the 90% of the cost.

The post you quoted was an answer to Jimmy B, and can be also viewed in another way. For 100K turnover, the efficient player will have killed 20k Mobs, while the non efficient one 12.5K (numbers way exaggerated to illustrate the point). Even though theoretically they'll both have gotten 90K ped back, which one has bigger chances to loot more ESIs?

 

[girtsn]

I do care about MU a great deal. However, I bought a high dmg/sec gun because my experience (e.g. the switch from 3.266 dmg/pec to 2.866 dmg/pec did not result in bigger tt return - and by now I have done more extreme tests to confirm it).

• I agree for a guy who is consistently losing, less turnover is better (and more eco, less dmg/sec stuff since that brings down the turnover)
• However I believe I can change my habbits and make better choices, and to break even or profit. With that in mind, more turnover is better.
• The only value of my ModFap is that it allows to kill mobs which others can't. I don't really care about the costs of clicking it too much. In fact if there was a mode it cost more to click it but I would get more medic skills, I would use it.
• I believe chances looting big ESIs are for people going for bigger mobs. However just doing that will fail, like I have with big proterons.

"Forgetting" MU is what this thread seems to be all about, as players these days seem focused on big HOFs and ATHs and not MU. The most efficient way to hunt is to keep your costs as low as possible, so you can kill more mobs for the same amount of ped and get more chances to loot something with higher MU like ESIs or items. That is why there is value in mod faps and such even if your TT returns per mob are lower to keep with the 90% of the cost.

The post you quoted was an answer to Jimmy B, and can be also viewed in another way. For 100K turnover, the efficient player will have killed 20k Mobs, while the non efficient one 12.5K (numbers way exaggerated to illustrate the point). Even though theoretically they'll both have gotten 90K ped back, which one has bigger chances to loot more ESIs?

 

[hogfather]

No arguments from me there.
After all, on big HP high regen mobs, higher dmg/sec is more efficient than an eco gun with lower dps - because you kill the mob faster with lower cost/kill. Eco is NOT the same as efficiency, and that is something that players often forget, going after big mobs with small eco guns - like a p5a and end up paying more simply because the mob regenerates.

I do care about MU a great deal. However, I bought a high dmg/sec gun because my experience (e.g. the switch from 3.266 dmg/pec to 2.866 dmg/pec did not result in bigger tt return - and by now I have done more extreme tests to confirm it).

• I agree for a guy who is consistently losing, less turnover is better (and more eco, less dmg/sec stuff since that brings down the turnover)
• However I believe I can change my habbits and make better choices, and to break even or profit. With that in mind, more turnover is better.
• The only value of my ModFap is that it allows to kill mobs which others can't. I don't really care about the costs of clicking it too much. In fact if there was a mode it cost more to click it but I would get more medic skills, I would use it.
• I believe chances looting big ESIs are for people going for bigger mobs. However just doing that will fail, like I have with big proterons.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Please remove this post.

It is based on a misconception of a quote taken completely out of context and twisted from its original meaning, as I pointed out in your thread about it.

What really happened was that someone said only ubers got nice loot during the event. Charlie countered that with this comment, saying that is not true and that non ubers had looted uber items.

This quote was in no way related to the reason Hydras were removed.

I've removed the part with the quote, as I had apparently misunderstood the context, but I still believe they did alter the drop rate.

 

[RickEngland]

The following is the reason I think this whole discussion at the end of the day is a complete waste of time.

Around 6 months ago I went to the TT purchased an opaolo hunted snables at Fort Itacha.

This was an eample of the result:

mob 01 - 10: tiny loot
mob 11: empty
mob 12: empty
mob 13: empty
mob 14: empty
mob 15: empty
mob 16: empty
mob 17: empty
mob 18: empty
mob 19: empty
mob 20: empty

After about 100 empties I gave up, so do I need to go on?

In all the experiments I've tried over the years the more eco or efficient you attempt to be, the LOWER the return. In fact the message I seemed to get back from the game during any experiments I tried was, that you will only be rewarded for taking bigger risks.

The truth is whatever you do, however you adjust your play the system will compensate in some manner to correct it. there is no win soluation other than standing at twin for hours trading with OTHER avatars. I have run too many experiments over the years to come to any other conclusion than that.

If you are a player and not a trader the best you can hope for is a loot correction when MA feels that you've had enough, zero science required.

Simple as that, and I stand by it. If anyone believes I'm wrong then I'm sorry to say but you are deluded.

Rick.

 

[Soldat Sol]

CLD's (an end around the SEC or whatever governs Swedish stock, selling off part of the company to people who have no recourse if you decide not to pay them)

+

Swedish Gambling Commission investigations (what I believe caused the Dev Release)

+

No Personal Loot Pool release (the 30k+ USD I have lost is gone forever? ok fine...thanks for at least telling me. I just added up depo history and last 12 was over 18K usd...and all my items in game are worth only 3k usd with MU included) So because of this release, I feel that all that money is gone forever. All my 40% return mining and crafting and hunting runs will never be repaid. This game saw me as a sucker and constant depositor, and turned the mf'ing loot OFF for my avatar. (My 4k ped Boorum and a 7k ped Gang don't mean shit so don't point them out...on the days I got them, I had lost 2 times that in the 2 days prior.) I know no one from MA promised me anything about returns in the past, but now that they are clear about it, I have no hope anymore and no reason to keep shooting.

+

All the good items from Robot Event went to a few special Soc's.
This one is the worst of all.
__________________________________________________________________________________

= I just can't do it anymore. I loved the game, cuz of the people in it, but all I feel safe doing anymore is starting a god damn selling thread.

Edit: Link to what I have for sale: https://www.planetcalypsoforum.com/...-Everything-is-for-sale&p=2952573#post2952573

So you spent 30k US dollars in hope there's a magical personal lootpool to repay you?seems as though many people have delusions of grandeur, you should seek some form of help regarding the gambling issue. All the best and good luck.

I've always believed in a random , not a personal lootpool so I'm not entirely surprised by this dev log.

 

[RickEngland]

So you spent 30k US dollars in hope there's a magical personal lootpool to repay you?seems as though many people have delusions of grandeur, you should seek some form of help regarding the gambling issue. All the best and good luck.

I've always believed in a random , not a personal lootpool so I'm not entirely surprised by this dev log.

ohhh..come on!!

personally i want to put my arm around the guy and offer him some comfort. Which is another thing and it has been mentioned before, what happened to the community spirit?

Have we now got into a situation were there's so much bitterness in game, that people get off on others misfortune.

Poor guy, if he shelled out he deserved better, and I'm saddened we might lose another guy who paid-his-way.

Rick

 

[Artrat]

What is scientific proof for you? I guess nothing can ever be scientific proof for some people. Are you one of those people? Just curious, I mean, what should your log have to be considered scientific proof?

In terms of generally accepted Scientific Method, to be honest there are many things in EU (the existence of a personal lootpool being one of them) that I don't think we can currently prove. We just do not have access to enough information. And you can try to insult me as much as you want, but I am not one of "those people", this is the process upon which all of the development of the modern world has been built.

That being said, the tests we do can give very strong indications of certain things, and can support or undermine hypotheses. However they are still just hypotheses, not Laws in the scientific sense. And the interpretation of the data is subjective as illustrated by our very different interpretation of the same data.

Your view may be right, my issue is not with your belief in a personal lootpool, it's with the fact that you regard the information presented as proof. You can believe in the Man in the Moon if you want, I have no problem with that untill you tell me that the little sguiggly shape on the moon is proof of the existence of the Man in the Moon.

To try and answer your question though, I'm not sure we have access to enough of the variables to adequately test the personal lootpool hypothesis.

Part of the problem is that the indicators you are looking for in the personal/general lootpool debate are essentially the same. Any correction towards some base avatar value can also easily be explained by the "regression toward the mean" in the general lootpool theory. The only thing I can think of which would strongly indicate a personal lootpool is the whole shooting into the air experiment. And this would have to be repeated several times on several different avatars. There would also need to a control group. But for any statistically significant answers I would think this would need to be done on at least 50 avatars. And even if there was no conclusive evidence gained, this would not disprove the personal-lootpool theory either, because MA may just be punishing the avatars for being stupid.

The only strong indicator that I see either way is loot volatility. If there was a personal lootpool, MA would be able to exercise much greater control over your rate of return, thereby making a lot of people very happy. But as we all know, returns vary greatly over the short-term, which to me indicates a general pool. Again however, this is not proof, just an indicator, but it is enough to put me in the general lootpool camp.

The relation of loot-value to cost-to-kill is an indpendent question, which can be explained in either of the two theories.

 

[Terminator]

I do care about MU a great deal. However, I bought a high dmg/sec gun because my experience (e.g. the switch from 3.266 dmg/pec to 2.866 dmg/pec did not result in bigger tt return - and by now I have done more extreme tests to confirm it).

What were the DPS of the two weapons? (ImK2 + A??? / ImpDOA + Evil?)
On what mob was it?

 

[SunnyS]

So you spent 30k US dollars in hope there's a magical personal lootpool to repay you?seems as though many people have delusions of grandeur, you should seek some form of help regarding the gambling issue. All the best and good luck.

I've always believed in a random , not a personal lootpool so I'm not entirely surprised by this dev log.

So you are saying that he should invest a lot of money without expecting anything back? ... And you have to personally attack him for spending money to help the game? ... Wonder who is the deluded one in this case lol

Btw he is not alone ... See the reaction when all big depositors learn that they have just donated their whole deposits to MA and start leaving in droves.

 

[Majstorex]