Developer-Notes--2

[JohnCapital]

Why does everyone agree blindly with these statements and call dedicated players that did the testing work as liars or religious?

We are neither. It seems we were simply wrong.

This changes nothing about the returns we've found in our tests. It simply means we came to the wrong conclusions.

RULE #1: When you find you are wrong, admit it and move on.

We simply try to figure out which variables we missed & do more tests. We try to figure out exactly what "Efficiency" means. We drop the "personal loot pool" concept. We move on.

This is not a bad thing.

 

[nlnforever]

MY RULE #N: When you find you are wrong, admit it and move on. BUT only when "I find", not only when someone else says that "I am wrong".

In this case, the community does NOT find that we are wrong, so we don't admit it. There is no guarantee that this Developer Note is made to be 100% correct, at least not in EULA.

 

[ruslan]

MA, tell us this, please: Is loot a wave or a particle?

 

[SunnyS]

[/LIST]

Let me understand this straight. Every log and every test ever made showing how the loot works worth over 500.000 PED in total is now void because somehow that little info from MA is 100% true and correct and you take it with absolute trust over anything else ever?

Yes, because unless you do a research for every single player for every single clicks, which is impossible,... The statistics are wrong.

Ill explain why statistics can't work ... If you have 10 players doing the same thing at the same time and getting the average returns is wrong ... Because 1player getting 180% would balance out the other player getting 0% ... So average would never work ... Then you have players saying ...but but ... It's over the lifetime/ cycle/ period ...etc etc ... Well that's wrong again like MA said once your peds are gone, they are gone ... So if I deposit and lose the whole 2k as MA said its gone ... So for me to make up the 90% I would need to balance in the next run or the run after which can't happen as there is no personal loot. So 90% is BS ... Proven.

There is not a Lootius.. it's really not hard to see how this game operates.. I have been saying for the longest time there was not a loot pool personal to each avatar. Case and point, you would see me ATH so much due to how much I have put into the game and have cycled from it.

~Danimal

Didnt you just contradict yourself in the same para. There's no personal loot pool but you ath because of how much you put in?

 

[Infinity01]

We are neither. It seems we were simply wrong.

This changes nothing about the returns we've found in our tests. It simply means we came to the wrong conclusions.

RULE #1: When you find you are wrong, admit it and move on.

We simply try to figure out which variables we missed & do more tests. We try to figure out exactly what "Efficiency" means. We drop the "personal loot pool" concept. We move on.

This is not a bad thing.

I've been compaining for a while that i dont' believe in 90% TT return for all... and those posts are all over the forum.
However, many players were insisting on that... and also there were longer term logs...telling us that loot is ~90%... But i've refused to accept that 90% TT RR for me as fact.

Assuming those logs were correct I thought may be my loot is affected differently.

I used to hunt in teams....So i've closely mononitored loot retrun....

To test if loot returns were different... I hunted same mobs same area in team but shooting different mobs and didnt' share loot. I did this test few times... with same weapon and armor setting....or I had better weapons with better dpp.

However, every time I tested it i got worse loot compared to my team m8...
Last time I did the in arkadia... I went there coz my team M8 was getting nice loot...and asked me to go there...

I did go and hunted again in team, same mob same area but shot at different mobs and didnt' share loot.

I was ripped off... but my partner got globals and hof with a very nice profit. My team m8 felt guilty.
I'm not sure how to explain these personal observations repeated over time other than personal loot pool. I've quoted another post in one of my post (232) in this thread to hightlight my point.

With all these accumulated experience I tend to believe that MA treats avatar differently..... on top of weaponsetup, skills, and mobs etc..

and with this developer note 2... MA has made me more confused about this game!

Anyway, probably none of these matter too much for me now... coz i've adopted... and would play accordingly!

I have been saying for the longest time there was not a loot pool personal to each avatar. Case and point, you would see me ATH so much due to how much I have put into the game and have cycled from it.

~Danimal

Didnt you just contradict yourself in the same para. There's no personal loot pool but you ath because of how much you put in?

Yes he did..!

 

[RedThothCrowley]

Yes, because unless you do a research for every single player for every single clicks, which is impossible,... The statistics are wrong.

Ill explain why statistics can't work ... If you have 10 players doing the same thing at the same time and getting the average returns is wrong ... Because 1player getting 180% would balance out the other player getting 0% ... So average would never work ... Then you have players saying ...but but ... It's over the lifetime/ cycle/ period ...etc etc ... Well that's wrong again like MA said once your peds are gone, they are gone ... So if I deposit and lose the whole 2k as MA said its gone ... So for me to make up the 90% I would need to balance in the next run or the run after which can't happen as there is no personal loot. So 90% is BS ... Proven.



Didnt you just contradict yourself in the same para. There's no personal loot pool but you ath because of how much you put in?

No contradiction there. He said you "would" see him all time high a lot if there was a personal loot pool. He did not say he "does" all time high a lot due to high investment.

 

[SunnyS]

No contradiction there. He said you "would" see him all time high a lot if there was a personal loot pool. He did not say he "does" all time high a lot due to high investment.

Good point ... I must have read it wrong. Sorry.

 

[Charlie Gloom]

Wow
At first that is all I got, I got 3k+ small ubber to put me back near 90% return recently. This info does say no personal loot pool. So by playing economically I have been cycling more ped for a higher chance to break even? Sounds good to me.

To lazy to look up quote but, weapon used can influence loot. They did nit restate this but they have before. I know I get more of certain items with certain weapons, you just need mu to offset items usage. Waiting now for them to hange this

 

[Infinity01]

Developer Notes #2

Any playtest experiments, theorycrafting or other analysis you may be presented with which indicate or suggest that efficiency does not matter are thus flawed either in their conception, data collection, data analysis or conclusions.

I've to admit that MA is correct about the above statement about the methodology!
What we all have are anecdotal individual observations except the one done by Marc falkao Falk (i think he had 3 persons data) none of them are are done in a proper/valid way to test even a hypothesis... let alone a theory..

Those ovservations by players are good enough only to generate hypothesis... none of them are properly designed to test those hypothesis....

So....

 

[SunnyS]

I don't see what MA have said that makes you think it's more gambling after the announcement than it was prior to the announcement. They've said (a) making good choices affects your results, and (b) 'lootpools' aren't personal. Statement (a) means the game is much less of a lottery than it would be if a player shooting with 2.0 dpp does as well as a player shooting with 3.0 dpp. And with regard to (b) if you now think it's essentially a fruit machine that lots of people play, in the long-run that's no different to a fruit machine that only you play. Also it means new players have a chance to hit it big early too, it'd be hugely unfair if they didn't, for instance any new players who geared up specially for the Argo Scout event would have been wasting their time and money otherwise.

Ok ... Here's my point of view

A.) making good choices will affect your results ... BS ... Why? ... It's vague ... It is like telling someone oh you didn't win that lottery because you didn't buy the ticket ... It is still gambling. " good choices" has nothing to do with this game I can guarantee you that ... Right place at the right time ... Maybe ... But not good choices ... Tell me how can MA say dynamic and efficient way of playing in the same sentence. If an avatar/noob wins an ATH by doing something stupid we say ...oh it's dynamic ... And if an older avatar loses his shirt by doing the same we call him "inefficient" ... Or he can't play the game? ... To me that's just GAMBLING!

B.) much less lottery is still gambling .... Just because people have more controll over poker or black jack it doesn't mean they will start putting them in your theme parks ... It is still gambling!

C.) only good choice to me ... If you are getting f'ed... Your peds won't come back to you EVER ... So stop.

 

[JohnCapital]

MY RULE #N: When you find you are wrong, admit it and move on. BUT only when "I find", not only when someone else says that "I am wrong".

My dear little Ped Waster (soc), I never said to admit you are wrong just because someone says it. You go with the evidence you have and cling to your beliefs, but when you find evidence to the contrary, you must be ready for the possibility that you misinterpreted some data somehow and found yourself heading toward the wrong conclusion.

After many, many years of "no comment" MA has come out with a very strong official statement aimed directly against the personal loot theory.

This does not invalidate my data. This simply tells me I need to reevaluate my conclusions. Ask myself what I'm missing.

Of course, there's also the possibility that this statement is an utter lie, meant to deceive its players. However, that possibility is wildly remote compared to the other explanation that some of us were just wrong and they were guiding us back on track.

Personally I preferred a personal loot pool system. It "felt" more fair to me for various reasons. However, a slightly more random loot pool theory (one which is obviously affected by player actions, but does not record long term results) seems to be a more appropriate explanation now.

On with the testing.

 

[Artrat]

I wrote a long post but thought better of it. You cannot have a logical discussion with irrational people, and if I said what I really want to say it would probably get me a temp ban.

So I'll just reitterate what Infinity01 has said above:

99% of the logs and tests available lack the scientific rigour necessary to be considered proof of anything, and all can be interpreted in many ways. The same logs that the all-knowing mrproper takes as "proof" of his opinions can be, and are, interpreted by me in a different way, one which supports my own hypotheses. It's all subjective. There is no point in getting upset with MA or with other players just because your opinion has been challenged. And to accuse them of lying? Well that's just retarded.

Now, repeat after me:

Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact

 

[ZAN ZAN]

Oh FFS...

Lot of people are missing the point.

Because, there is apparently no continuous personal expense/return tracking mechanism in game, it doesn't necessarily mean that your activity level and turnover means fūčkāļl. Quite the contrary. Someone already said there are many ways how to approach a "pool", not just continuous single ended personal expense tracking.

Speaking of the "personal pools" I've seen such ridiculous theories from some people, like this gem, that maximum you can get out from the system is the sum of your total deposits over time, or that you are actually ONLY looting your own ped in game, because "this is not gambling - you can't win funds from other people". On top of that, some actually seem to believe that there is some guy @ MA, watching every single player in game, and pressing some buttons at the right or wrong time. Seriously.

Seems like MA finally decided to break their long standing stonewall and try guiding some people in the right direction, hopefully. Because some of the losses by some players, are just astronomical, to me at least. And losing that much out of ignorance or being misguided, doesn't do any good for the already crappy reputation of this game.

Efficiency. Ahh the efficiency. It has never taken a backseat, its just been neglected by the players lately.

In mining, being efficient means simple things like NOT using level 8 amps to "I'm gonna explore the new planets a bit", knowing that they will drop lyst and a variety of unsellable stuff, and you will get a 4 digit figure worth of stuff on a single run. Efficiency is not mining for stuff that has no demand, and using an appropriate finders for that. Efficiency is pulling up big and slow, low markup claims with cheapest-to-use extractor possible, that doesn't sacrifice speed. and pulling up a trail of sixty small claims with a speedy and efficient extractor. Efficiency is gathering just enough of ores what you as a miner, and the market needs. And finally efficiency is not mining bloody gangrenite on foma with level 13 amps, and then crying about the game "not having a personal loot pool".

 

[K-Max]

Don't ever toss your personal results away... If they have worked for you stick to them. Could be corp BS! Could be true 100%! Fact is if you do well with your own results don't falter from them.

But for those others that have never collected their own results it opens their eyes to don't trust what someone else finds. Because I don't play by most of what others say and I have my own theories this little piece of BS is not stopping me from saying I have not found my own pattern. They stated it is not based on personal loot pool that should help refine theories not debunk them. I know I will work on my own refinements.

 

[remontoire]

MY RULE #N: When you find you are wrong, admit it and move on. BUT only when "I find", not only when someone else says that "I am wrong".

In this case, the community does NOT find that we are wrong, so we don't admit it. There is no guarantee that this Developer Note is made to be 100% correct, at least not in EULA.

Well, it is not as if the community as a whole did believe that there was a personal loot pool. The problem with the 90% arguments so far has been that out of the 3 groups of people :

• play carefully, no risk taking, no big losses
• play riskily, also land a big hof
• play riskliy, don't land a big hof

only bothered to deal with the existence of first 2 groups of people, claiming that the third set are due a hof anyways, and usually belonged in the first group themselves.

 

[Terminator]

My last post in this thread, because once again, the usual "90%" believers are becoming aggressive. (Some people really have difficulty to discuss without insulting, it seems...)

When I was depositing, I was hunting with Justifier mkII and had very low return.

Since then, I have worked bery hard to maximize my eco. The result, as previously written means "give less to the loot pool". But also "let the other people feed it". The competition has never been against MA/Lootius, the competition is between the players.

I admit I have never tested TT Pistol + E-Amp 15 combination. But why should I? This year I have 99.60% return in hunting, since I started my tracking in 2010 I have 102.81%.


Now, continue believing in what you want, really, please...

 

[girtsn]

TT return of 99.6%? Amazing, then. This breaks down the 90% tt theory in that case provided your sample size is big enough.
Btw, this is a good point. It only would take one active and trusted hunter to come up with tt tracking results for a big enough sample size to take down this "90% tt return myth". Will the real slim shady please stand up?

I admit I have never tested TT Pistol + E-Amp 15 combination. But why should I? This year I have 99.60% return in hunting, since I started my tracking in 2010 I have 102.81%.

 

[Mayday]

My last post in this thread, because once again, the usual "90%" believers are becoming aggressive. (Some people really have difficulty to discuss without insulting, it seems...)

When I was depositing, I was hunting with Justifier mkII and had very low return.

Since then, I have worked bery hard to maximize my eco. The result, as previously written means "give less to the loot pool". But also "let the other people feed it". The competition has never been against MA/Lootius, the competition is between the players.

I admit I have never tested TT Pistol + E-Amp 15 combination. But why should I? This year I have 99.60% return in hunting, since I started my tracking in 2010 I have 102.81%.


Now, continue believing in what you want, really, please...

TT return or TT+MU?

 

[Cail]

MA, tell us this, please: Is loot a wave or a particle?

Or.... (as many have liked linking wiki articles, so will I): Wave–particle duality
So, maybe we're just seeing 90% returns only 'cause we're tracking

 

[Talania]

Accounts are placed on different servers. What server your account is on when you log on decides your loot luck. The server you get put on switches when MA decides some players have had enough losses or gains. No loot pool there just a set way for them to make sure players get balanced. Unless you really upset MA then you just get left on the bad loot server.


If you don't believe what I am saying is true ask some players and find out who has had constant disconnects on the same computer while their spouse or relative or friend who uses the same computer never disconnects.

 

[dr3w]

Or.... (as many have liked linking wiki articles, so will I): Wave–particle duality
So, maybe we're just seeing 90% returns only 'cause we're tracking

Well, if we have Loot Theory, now time to introduce Special Loot Theory.

 

[Artrat]

Accounts are placed on different servers. What server your account is on when you log on decides your loot luck. The server you get put on switches when MA decides some players have had enough losses or gains. No loot pool there just a set way for them to make sure players get balanced. Unless you really upset MA then you just get left on the bad loot server.


If you don't believe what I am saying is true ask some players and find out who has had constant disconnects on the same computer while their spouse or relative or friend who uses the same computer never disconnects.

Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact
Opinion ≠ Fact

 

[dr3w]

Opinion ≠ Fact

This is your opinion about that fact? (runawayforsmoke.jpg)

 

[Artrat]

This is your opinion about that fact? (runawayforsmoke.jpg)

Indeed it is

 

[Jennson]

I am wondering why the 90% return is seen as a theory. It is and was never more than a statistical observation based on logs. Noone is entitled a 90% return, but even with random factors the average isn't affected. So we have a RNG or a combination of RNGs producing random results, does not mean there can't be a statistical average as a result.

However it answers a question i asked (2?) years ago:It is not like a card stack, but like a ( or more ) dice(s).

 

[aia]

Efficiency Matters - We would like to state here very clearly that avatar skills and efficiency on the tools used do indeed matter a great deal, and have a very significant effect on overall returns in all Entropia Universe professions.

Personal Lootpools There is no such thing as a “personal lootpool” for individual avatars, and there is no system in place which tracks each avatar’s returns over time, or which provides compensation to individual avatars.

Thanks for letting me know.

a) If you've never been lucky enough to loot a good weapon or be able to buy imk2 or mod merc, but you're using average weapon availible to mid-level player (either oldschool or paying markup% for it), you're a sucker.

b) The game is a lottery. It's by design a 5 day old avatar has same chance to get a ATH as someone who's feeding peds into the game.

Could we have a clarification about regen mobs also?
If it's the average HP of a regen mob that decides average loot size, or if it's the ammo actually spent/damage actually made. Current theory is that to some degree it's the ammo spent but as it's just an unconfirmed theory it would be good with a clarification.

In the past my percpetion was that uneco gear was compensated for some way or another - either boosted loot, or higher skillgains. And that my HOFs were about what I've spent in the past (hence given out in TT-food stackables or coins only) so it's good my personal theory got wasted.

 

[falkao]

that's the first time that we do get an explicit answer about all those theories by MA. Hence, we get the confirmation about loot being absolutely random following a preset payout model. What's still missing is a statement about the payout percentage you can maximally achieve in the long run.

...They've said (a) making good choices affects your results, and (b) 'lootpools' aren't personal. Statement (a) means the game is much less of a lottery than it would be if a player shooting with 2.0 dpp does as well as a player shooting with 3.0 dpp. ...
I think both (a) and (b) are very good news.

I see a) more like the following. For the same lottery you can choose between differently priced tickets, although their payout is similar or the same.

 

[Joat]

Thanks for some more interesting info MA.
With this some theories and ideas can be ditched, while others are (more or less) confirmed.
Even thou' it really doesn't matter to me anymore, I guess.

 

[remontoire]

Could we have a clarification about regen mobs also?
If it's the average HP of a regen mob that decides average loot size, or if it's the ammo actually spent/damage actually made. Current theory is that to some degree it's the ammo spent but as it's just an unconfirmed theory it would be good with a clarification.

The general stress on efficency would imply that you are better off using as high dps weapon as possible on these to minimize wastage, as long as you don't get overkill ...

 

[Fifth]

As for the reasons why MA made this statement, i believe Smoer said it best:

My feeling is, that MindArk today tried to set the expectations right, because this results in way more happy and way more satisfied customers.

Also this dev post will make it a LOT easier for players to have more fun with their PEDs, becuase they will not think "i need to loose a lot to hit big" any more.

There's no need for any other reasons, this one is the simplest and also most logical.


About the countless (mostly stupid ) "loot pool theories", here's the simplest explanation:

My opinion, what the "no personal lootpool" means something as follows (though clarification would be nice).

1. No avatar is luckier than the rest on purpose
2. ATHs are random, losses don't mean you get one

What is "personal loot pool"?
It's is a huge database with loot balance records for every single participant - all this carefully maintained since 2004. Hello?! That's BS ofc, i didn't need an official statement to see that.
However, some people apparently needed it. Now some of them are rushing into opposite extreme and assume there's no causality at all. Equally stupid.

I (and not only me ofc) can definitely see periodical adjustments made by the system, where input (decay) is compared with output (the "default" loot) and the difference is compensated.
It's definitely there and it's periodical not constant (not calculated for every click, shot or dropped bomb, this would drain too much resources).
Obviously, for this system to work, there has to be a "micro lootpool" - if the system can't "remember" your last shots and loots you got it can't calculate the correct (slightly randomized ofc) compensation value.
Only question is: what's the duration (the cycle length)?
MA says it's not "form the beginning of all times". That's all they say, everything else is, again, our theories...