Developer-Notes--3

[valentin]

On a tangent... but:

What exactly was the test method that the Swedish Lottery Inspection team used? How much data did they gather? Where are these numbers published and/or what is the criteria/data they used to determine EU randomization is != gambling?

Does anyone have this information?

My personal gut feeling is that:
(a) Not enough testing was done.
(b) The Inspection team were not "MMO" savvy enough to test things properly.
(c) The team could not be bothered to "learn" the entire system for a month or two to come up with viable data/results.
(d) Some sort of textbook "definition" of lotteries was applied - and EU did not tick all the required boxes to be classified as a lottery.
(e) The UNSTATIC nature of the loots (ie MANUAL MA rewrites per VU) does not classify it as purely random to be deemed a lottery.

Regardless... does anyone have the actual data (not just that thesis (and publication) email from one player) that actually proves it?

The Lotteri inspektionen says they only made a cursory inspection of the game, it has been in the forum before.

I wish they did a proper investigation.

 

[rastamannen]

On a tangent... but:

What exactly was the test method that the Swedish Lottery Inspection team used? How much data did they gather? Where are these numbers published and/or what is the criteria/data they used to determine EU randomization is != gambling?

Does anyone have this information?

My personal gut feeling is that:
(a) Not enough testing was done.
(b) The Inspection team were not "MMO" savvy enough to test things properly.
(c) The team could not be bothered to "learn" the entire system for a month or two to come up with viable data/results.
(d) Some sort of textbook "definition" of lotteries was applied - and EU did not tick all the required boxes to be classified as a lottery.
(e) The UNSTATIC nature of the loots (ie MANUAL MA rewrites per VU) does not classify it as purely random to be deemed a lottery.

Regardless... does anyone have the actual data (not just that thesis (and publication) email from one player) that actually proves it?

Well its probably not random eventhough it seems very random to players, its probably because they want the system to be hard to understand completley. I think there is a small chance that theyve changed their system after lottery inspection visited them. I can make some examples that doesnt make it completley random, ill use mining as an example:

There are veins, an experienced players knows this and mine along the veins (this may not apply today, thats why i think theyve might have changed stuff, feedback from someone with experience is needed).

There are ores with higher markup and u need skills to use a better finder to find those ores.¨

This part has nothing to do with EU but maybe -> U have 70% chance of getting a skill increase in prospecting if u have 2 claims withihn 200m, so skill increase could mean there are claims nearby, experiened miners knows this and have the upperhand on the noob.

My conclusion about this is some stuff are dependent on knowledge and skill, but it has a small impact today, i would say very small either that or im just stupid And all the rest is just pure randomness but enough for the lottery bastards to approve it. Theyve probably made testings with a complete random player vs a player that knows how the game works and proven that skills matters.

But who knows really...But one thins is for sure, they want it to look random so ppl dont figure out how the game works but even if they did....Its dynamic and keeps changing all the time.

 

[Tepes]

I thought we all knew items got moved around mobs, at http://www.entropia-loot.com/?s=loot you can look back over previous versions to see how items have migrated around the mobs.

Just searching for some of the low level L weapons like an Emik S30 and you'll see it moving around mobs, added in one vu and then removed in the next.

Oh yes.. thanks for clearing that up! There are a LOT of players worried sick of the Emik S30 not dropping anymore from cornXXX *(fill the mob there, I don't remember exactly)

Sorry, are you serious? The issue is, NICE, important items does not loot anymore. I can loot ASI-10 TT weapon from Oro young quite easily, tyvm (ooops.. did I just disclosed that?)

Regarding lottery... maybe the comission came to MA offices during Midsommer Fest or how it's called .. I was there too one time, all chicks getting drunk senseless on the park's meadows, while the "other" half (aka most of non-natives) praying all day long... no middle ground for someone like me. Kinda this game. A "SystemBolaget" with high prices and absurd rules.

 

[mrproper]

I can loot ASI-10 TT weapon from Oro young quite easily, tyvm (ooops.. did I just disclosed that?)

I don't know about Oro, but I loot mine from Halix, Ostelok and Jori. Very very happy to get half-used items in loot that I can buy from the tt...

 

[aridash]

On a tangent... but:

What exactly was the test method that the Swedish Lottery Inspection team used?

as said, there is some public comment. basically they said it requires manual skill to play, i.e. the amount of interaction required in gameplay means they felt it isnt a lottery.

The Lotteri inspektionen says they only made a cursory inspection of the game, it has been in the forum before.

I wish they did a proper investigation.

why? you want it shut down or you think MA will completely change the whole game?

 

[valentin]

On second thoughts, MA has never denied or commented on the existence of the lottery in the game, They only said That this is more than a game and we all Have The Same Chances.
Now it's just a question of what they mean by these words really...

 

[wizzszz]

On second thoughts, MA has never denied or commented on the existence of the lottery in the game, ...

Marco said that "there is no luck involved" - and the swedish gambling commission appears to confirm this.

However, what separates "gambling" from "non-gambling" is quite clear:

The outcome of non-gambling games is predominantly based on the players skills and only to a minor degree based on random factors.

"Players skills" refers to IRL skills though, and has nothing to do with the ingame skill system.

It is for sure possible to build a loot system that is NOT random, does NOT track losses and does still not qualify as gambling - it's just, there are next to zero RL skills involved in EU...

MA should disclose what factors are involved, they are known for every other skill based game.
"Picking the right weapon and mob" is hardly a RL skill that can tip the scales enough, compared to the random factors.

 

[Jimmy B]

It is for sure possible to build a loot system that is NOT random, does NOT track losses and does still not qualify as gambling - it's just, there are next to zero RL skills involved in EU...

MA should disclose what factors are involved, they are known for every other skill based game.
"Picking the right weapon and mob" is hardly a RL skill that can tip the scales enough, compared to the random factors.

It depends how you look at it and if MU counts towards the skill-factor from the regulator's viewpoint. Controlling your MU expenditure and keeping up with which mobs loot good MU can make quite a big difference, as can hunting according to demand (e.g. events like Mayhem and in the past landgrab increase demand for certain items). Even knowing which mobs drop which oils can make a difference if you keep an eye on the price fluctuations.

Likewise a miner who is knowledgeable about resource locations and the market will do significantly better in the long run than someone just choosing location on whim.

 

[wizzszz]

It depends how you look at it and if MU counts towards the skill-factor from the regulator's viewpoint. Controlling your MU expenditure and keeping up with which mobs loot good MU can make quite a big difference, as can hunting according to demand (e.g. events like Mayhem and in the past landgrab increase demand for certain items). Even knowing which mobs drop which oils can make a difference if you keep an eye on the price fluctuations.

Likewise a miner who is knowledgeable about resource locations and the market will do significantly better in the long run than someone just choosing location on whim.

Somehow i knew this would pop up.

Markup is a "player to player thingie", MA cannot expect other people to repay your losses from their wallet (MU = other players money).

Not only for that reason the system must be designed to calculate TT only: markup is far too volatile to be taken into account by the swedish gambling commission.

 

[Ace Flyster]

markup is far too volatile to be taken into account by the swedish gambling commission.

Why? You have no idea what was taken into account by the swedish gambling commission...they could easily have been told:

MA: our business model works on paying back 90% off tt spent. Players have the ability to profit by selling what they recieve back to other players for greater than 111%.

Swedish gambling commssiion: fair enough, we declare it is not gambling

I am only pointing out you have no info of what they did and didnt take into account on their visit, the ONLY thing you know is that is was declared none gambling

Rgds

Ace

 

[rastamannen]

Ace have a point but i think they look more on the skill vs luck factor (TT in and TT out)...But who knows what they know about MMO games? I do think MU has to do with knowledge and skill...

 

[Joat]

The Swedish gambling Authority did try EU out in Q3 2008.
Their impression of EU were that in general it weren't seen as gambling due
to what they saw. They didn't do a too detailed examination of it thou',
and their judgement might be changed in the future if there are parts in EU
that could be seen as gambling.

 

[wizzszz]

Ace, you missed the point...

Why? You have no idea what was taken into account by the swedish gambling commission...they could easily have been told:

Correct, i have "no idea" as in "hard facts".
But the swedish gambling commission will, too, only consider "hard facts", and not the blurry possibility of covering some losses by markup.

MA: our business model works on paying back 90% off tt spent. Players have the ability to profit by selling what they recieve back to other players for greater than 111%.

You contradict yourself here - it's the "90% back from MA" that matters here, whatever a player is able to get on top of that for his goods is up to him.
There is no "compensation for losses above the 10% by markup"

Swedish gambling commssiion: fair enough, we declare it is not gambling

Yeah, based on the "90% back off TT spent" statement. Only.

I am only pointing out you have no info of what they did and didnt take into account on their visit, the ONLY thing you know is that is was declared none gambling

True.
But if you ever had to deal with the authorities, you'll agree that "we take the money and let other players pay the bill, so the average participant ends up at 90% TT spent" is NOT going to work.
If you write something like that in the application for approval, you can as well just dump the entire application into the wastebin.

The Swedish gambling Authority did try EU out in Q3 2008.
Their impression of EU were that in general it weren't seen as gambling due
to what they saw. They didn't do a too detailed examination of it thou',
and their judgement might be changed in the future if there are parts in EU
that could be seen as gambling.

Actually, the european union is planning to loosen the laws on gambling for all it's member states.

I.e. in spain it is legal to operate your own lottery, whereas in germany it is a state monopoly - but this will change soon, and sweden, being a part of the EU, will be very likely affected, too.

 

[Joat]

Actually, the european union is planning to loosen the laws on gambling for all it's member states.

I.e. in spain it is legal to operate your own lottery, whereas in germany it is a state monopoly - but this will change soon, and sweden, being a part of the EU, will be very likely affected, too.

They might be changed, but on the other hand, look at trading with alcohol in Sweden,
it's still within the control of the monopoly from the state.
So gambling laws of sweden might stay the same even in the future.

 

[Ace Flyster]

Ace, you missed the point...

I quite regularly do!

Correct, i have "no idea" as in "hard facts".
But the swedish gambling commission will, too, only consider "hard facts", and not the blurry possibility of covering some losses by markup.

Sorry to repeat myself, but you have no idea if they only considered hard facts or soft facts or incredibly spongy "facts".....we dont know what systems they looked, and there is even the possibility they were not even allowed to look at the loot algorithm......again you have no idea (and neither do i) what they did consider

You contradict yourself here - it's the "90% back from MA" that matters here, whatever a player is able to get on top of that for his goods is up to him.
There is no "compensation for losses above the 10% by markup"

I didnt contradict, just said players have the possibility of achieving a positive balance by selling their looted goods for a minimum of 111% Or accounting for markup spent (numbers are just for example, as i am sure you are aware)

Yeah, based on the "90% back off TT spent" statement. Only.

True.
But if you ever had to deal with the authorities, you'll agree that "we take the money and let other players pay the bill, so the average participant ends up at 90% TT spent" is NOT going to work.
If you write something like that in the application for approval, you can as well just dump the entire application into the wastebin.

I have no idea what they wrote, but if they based their argument on....we make all our money from decay....its up the players how and what they decay. Then i am not surprised they found it none gambling..........yes i know the arguments that say everything you do in PE is gambling, but you can also apply the same philosphy on every single action you do in your real life time. I dont take that line of view myself.

The player has complete control on how and what he uses. And a helluva lot more than they do in a casino....in my personal opinion PE could not be further apart from casinos. And so am not surprised it was deemed as none gambling.

The otherside of the argument might have been.......

SGamblingAuth1: okay guys this game is definitely gambling
SGamblingAuth2: cool lets tax/regulate the hell out of them...(or whatever it is they would do)
SGamblingAuth1: kk, how?
SGamblingAuth2: christ...i don't know
SGamblingAuth1: ahhh screw it, lets say its not gambling, far too much effort!

This is higly doubtly of course (just my mind wandering) as i am sure if they thought it was gambling that is extra coppers for them...and would have found a way

Anyway i digress and my fingers hurt

Rgds

Ace

 

[wizzszz]

I didnt contradict, just said players have the possibility of achieving a positive balance by selling their looted goods for a minimum of 111% Or accounting for markup spent (numbers are just for example, as i am sure you are aware)

Sure everyone has this possibility, but profit from P2P trades is not a factor the authorities will consider,
simply because here...

Sorry to repeat myself, but you have no idea if they only considered hard facts or soft facts or incredibly spongy "facts".....we dont know what systems they looked, and there is even the possibility they were not even allowed to look at the loot algorithm......again you have no idea (and neither do i) what they did consider

...you are dead wrong.

The process of authorizing a game with the gambling commission is not some kind of weird, secret process, it follows tangible rules. This set of rules is painstakingly exact, and, moreover, the rules are available to the public.

It's not like some guy drinks a couple of beers with Jan Welter and that's about it: the results of the evaluation have to be determined in written form, with the respective rules these decisions were based on.

If sweden works like every other democratic western country (which i am quite sure of), the rules are pretty much the same as in other countries. Why you are trying to make it look like a hidden process, some kind of magic procedure behind closed doors? Because that is exactly NOT how it works.

Every document describing the process of approval is availabe to the public (maybe limit to access via a lawyer), it's just not as easy to access it from another country. And, the set of rules the decisions are based upon are also available for everyone.

This does not mean i have checked all the rules, but for sure they do NOT contain things like "players compensating players", unless sweden is THE incredibly big unique exception to the rule - these rules cover ONLY the fiscal transaction between the company and a single player - that others do play the game, too, and may provide compensation is NOT taken into consideration: It's just company - player relation, which allows me to deduct my statement from above.

You, in contrast, keep posting "it aint so", based on... what exactly?
Feel free to prove me wrong by posting a translated version of the swedish set of rules (laws).

 

[Deleted member 23278]

not really anything new

This!... (looks up at comment), and alice's guide should be mentioned among others, but it's very long overdue that this basic common sense information and advice was issued by MA but please MindArk.. imho.... don't do it like this, make a proper guide, seems your just pinching bits from real players and drip feeding it to us, don't patronise, make it real, make it good!

 

[aia]

This!... (looks up at comment), and alice's guide should be mentioned among others, but it's very long overdue that this basic common sense information and advice was issued by MA but please MindArk.. imho.... don't do it like this, make a proper guide, seems your just pinching bits from real players and drip feeding it to us, don't patronise, make it real, make it good!

What I think will happen in the end (of summer) (I thought 31st august but lol well) was that MA would launch a major rebalancing - comparable to when Opalos got into the trade terminal. First MA will act like the "bad guy", telling an average mid-level player: "your hunting gear sucks". Then, at the VU, a new note will be released: "To make it possible to keep the hunting fun up, the long awaited <thing> is finally here! This is how it will work: (...)".

To sum it up, the last dev note says: "If you're using (L) highend gear instead of imk2 you're a sucker (ie eco 4.05 vs 4.63) If you're using oldschool gear instead of repairable SIB gear, you're a sucker (ha 5.0 vs ha 10.0). If you use a slow weapon (p5a) on regen mobs (spider, fresco) you're a sucker since you lose half the ammo you pump into the mob."

So I either expect something revolutionary to come. Either that, or the dev notes are as true as all items still drop.

 

[valentin]

What I think will happen in the end (of summer) (I thought 31st august but lol well) was that MA would launch a major rebalancing - comparable to when Opalos got into the trade terminal. First MA will act like the "bad guy", telling an average mid-level player: "your hunting gear sucks". Then, at the VU, a new note will be released: "To make it possible to keep the hunting fun up, the long awaited <thing> is finally here! This is how it will work: (...)".

To sum it up, the last dev note says: "If you're using (L) highend gear instead of imk2 you're a sucker (ie eco 4.05 vs 4.63) If you're using oldschool gear instead of repairable SIB gear, you're a sucker (ha 5.0 vs ha 10.0). If you use a slow weapon (p5a) on regen mobs (spider, fresco) you're a sucker since you lose half the ammo you pump into the mob."

So I either expect something revolutionary to come. Either that, or the dev notes are as true as all items still drop.

What did you want from MA from exept nerfs.........

 

[aia]

What did you want from MA from exept nerfs.........

I think the rebalance will be optional (to keep a handful of very high level and another group of very low level from going nuts).

 

[Ciobyna]

What did you want from MA from exept nerfs.........

For the love of God Valentin! If you only expect nerfs from MA then why in the world are you still playing after all this time? Really ?

I for one I am sick and tired of your constant negativity during all the years I've been following this forum. I don't claim that MA are angels and don't get me wrong, I have all the respect for your dedication in playing the game and for your skills but after all this time your posts sound just like a broken record which adds nothing of value to the discussion, quite the contrary.

Now pardon my interruption (for which I've ended a long silent lurking on this pages), you can go back to the regular MA bashing.

Ciobyna

 

[Ludvig|MindArk]

What did you want from MA from exept nerfs.........

Well, the recent rebalancing of MindForce to make it more eco and competative was certainly no nerf, so why would I expect only nerfs?

 

[SunnyS]

 

[Torschen]

The way I understand from the Dev Notes 3 when it comes to hunting the factors that contribute to efficiency are as fallows:

Hit ability > dmg/pec > maxed damage > low armor/fap decay

I think only hit ability had some definite ranking of these, and it was mentioned as the most vital. No exact order of others.

Now, ppl please be merciful to MA posters. To satisfy the inquisition of community and avoid any possible false conclusions, the developers are almost forced to check their posts in advance with half a dozen lawyers, maybe two poets and preferably one retired kremlinologist.

 

[dr3w]

Well, the recent rebalancing of MindForce to make it more eco and competative was certainly no nerf, so why would I expect only nerfs?

Well, actually, it's good to expect nerf of nerfs.

 

[wizzszz]

If HA and eco matters that much, how do you explain that loot is still pretty much the same when you pay only 60% of the kill costs (with the help of others pre-killing a mob) - across many, many 100s of kills.



Either way, can't wait to read dev nots #4 where you guy will tell miners with 5+ years experience that their mining is not efficient anymore all of a sudden.
(because that's why i keep losing peds as of late, despite using the same technique and tools as before, despite 130% average markup - must be my fault, 105 andTK320 finder is not eco at level 36 in both mining professions - right?)

 

[Ace Flyster]

If HA and eco matters that much, how do you explain that loot is still pretty much the same when you pay only 60% of the kill costs (with the help of others pre-killing a mob) - across many, many 100s of kills.



Either way, can't wait to read dev nots #4 where you guy will tell miners with 5+ years experience that their mining is not efficient anymore all of a sudden.
(because that's why i keep losing peds as of late, despite using the same technique and tools as before, despite 130% average markup - must be my fault, 105 andTK320 finder is not eco at level 36 in both mining professions - right?)

Let me get this right, you average 130% mu on all materials, you didnt mention amps so i presume you are not using them? And you say you are losing....lol you have to be the worst miner i have ever heard off!!!!

I had two diciples (miners) that never needed to deposit following my very simple advice. You are moving after you drop each bomb

Rgds

Ace

PS if you are losing, you are either miss calculating your average mu on materials,

i know many many people that cannot get their heads round average mu, ie:

100 ped of lyst @ 105%
10ped of niks @ 200%

lots of people see that as an average of 150%, but as i am sure you are aware the average mu would be 125%

Or you are using amps that eat up the rest of the markup and mining in taxed area on top. Or you are mining in a way that wasnt intended Or you are just making up numbers. Or you are using lots of enhancers

 

[Harmony.]

(because that's why i keep losing peds as of late, despite using the same technique and tools as before, despite 130% average markup - must be my fault, 105 andTK320 finder is not eco at level 36 in both mining professions - right?)

Yes. Finder (mostly) only influences the depth, not the tt return. If you want bigger eco in mining you can either use tools that decay less, or use finder range enhancers. (and avoid heavily mined areas).

 

[Dollymaus]

and avoid heavily mined areas).

I always mined in heavy mined areas and always (on the lon run) got more than 90% back, cant find a reason to avoid them.

But i hardly mined in last months...

 

[dr3w]

I had two diciples (miners) that never needed to deposit following my very simple advice. You are moving after you drop each bomb

Agree. Most important part - after drop, and not before!