Dissecting Loot 2.0 Statements form MA

[wizz]

Right, yes, you're overthinking this.
Move on nothing to see here.
You're happy, I'm happy.
It's a zero sum game after all...

So are you sure you're happy? Won't change your mind tomorrow?

Thanks for this useless contribution.

No idea what your talking about.

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

I interpret it as follows:

Example.
The max a weapon can do is lets say 3,0 dmg/pec. (might be higher or lower with buffs and stuff, I dont know)
But lets just say with max eco you can do 3.0 dmg/pec.
So, a 300 HP mob could be killed spending 100 pec.
Now that 100 pec is the minimal cost to kill the mob.
To get optimal loot configuration you need to get as close to that 100 pec as possible.
All costs involved killing the mob will get you further from that 100 pec as your costs increase. In turn decreasing your optimal loot.

All those statements like having 10/10, healing and not overamping are just logical things to do to keep you as close to that 100 pec kill cost.
Not having 10/10 decreases your avr weapon dmg output = costs
healing = costs
overamping = cost
No kill timer means the time to kill a mob doesnt effect optimal loot...unless the mob regens. And thats where the "excessive time to kill" statement comes in. excessive time means more regen means more costs.

In my opinion MA statements are so simple that we cannot understand them because we're seeking to much behind it.

Thanks Wizz, but while this is a very nice summary, every single bit of it was valid in loot 1.0 as well. I wrote a lot about these same things years ago myself here.

While I am sure many of us are overthinking it, if you think what you wrote fully explains the new loot 2.0, while others are telling you that's the same description as loot 1.0 then you are essentially saying loot 1.0 and 2.0 are identical? Maybe I missed something here, but there is indeed and should be new things to figure out in 2.0

What I am here trying to discuss is what everyone thinks about the new loot features. Optimal loot, armr and fap decay compensation, best ways to gear up vs mobs,, ie more armr, more fap, more dps, minimising overdamage.

For instance, Mindark has said the old model was dpp dominant, now we have scopes/lasers that while lowering dpp on paper, are increasing the efficiency (which in turn effects loot). This is new.

Another example, I have a sneaking suspicion there is something about matching armr protection types to the mob damage types now to get optimal loot. Why do I think this? well I feel it was a way to silently nerf EST armor (something had to be done). Additionally a lot of players were hunting naked with resto chips as well.. in loot 1,0 this was optimal strategy, in loot 2.0 this might not be.

It is these types of things I am looking for viewpoints on....

 

[Fifth]

No idea what your talking about.

Cool by me, let's keep it that way.

 

[xian]

To oversimplify this, we went from a dpp*dps game to a dpp*dps/d game.
Attack speed is the only way now, favoring only handgun. bye bye rocket and rifle ?

 

[wizz]

Thanks Wizz, but while this is a very nice summary, every single bit of it was valid in loot 1.0 as well. I wrote a lot about these same things years ago myself here.

While I am sure many of us are overthinking it, if you think what you wrote fully explains the new loot 2.0, while others are telling you that's the same description as loot 1.0 then you are essentially saying loot 1.0 and 2.0 are identical? Maybe I missed something here, but there is indeed and should be new things to figure out in 2.0

What I am here trying to discuss is what everyone thinks about the new loot features. Optimal loot, armr and fap decay compensation, best ways to gear up vs mobs,, ie more armr, more fap, more dps, minimising overdamage.

For instance, Mindark has said the old model was dpp dominant, now we have scopes/lasers that while lowering dpp on paper, are increasing the efficiency (which in turn effects loot). This is new.

Another example, I have a sneaking suspicion there is something about matching armr protection types to the mob damage types now to get optimal loot. Why do I think this? well I feel it was a way to silently nerf EST armor (something had to be done). Additionally a lot of players were hunting naked with resto chips as well.. in loot 1,0 this was optimal strategy, in loot 2.0 this might not be.

It is these types of things I am looking for viewpoints on....

Maybe read my posts again
It's mostly about "optimal loot" and how to achieve it.
You didnt have that at loot 1.0. Or did you?
But for the rest, yeah, I dont think much has changed.

To oversimplify this, we went from a dpp*dps game to a dpp*dps/d game.
Attack speed is the only way now, favoring only handgun. bye bye rocket and rifle ?

Why you say this? What has attack speed got to do with it? It's still about dmg/sec mainly because of regeneration.
Dmg/sec is still the way to go, either with high attack speed or with high dmg. As long as you just dont let the mob regen to much.

 

[Zanathos]

What I am here trying to discuss is what everyone thinks about the new loot features. Optimal loot, armr and fap decay compensation, best ways to gear up vs mobs,, ie more armr, more fap, more dps, minimising overdamage.

For instance, Mindark has said the old model was dpp dominant, now we have scopes/lasers that while lowering dpp on paper, are increasing the efficiency (which in turn effects loot). This is new.

Another example, I have a sneaking suspicion there is something about matching armr protection types to the mob damage types now to get optimal loot. Why do I think this? well I feel it was a way to silently nerf EST armor (something had to be done). Additionally a lot of players were hunting naked with resto chips as well.. in loot 1,0 this was optimal strategy, in loot 2.0 this might not be.

It is these types of things I am looking for viewpoints on....

I don't really know how MA could track armour and fap decay in order to compensate it. Seems like it could be manipulated somehow and to also track it for each individual enemy that you kill? Having the optimal setup though seems a given. But there honestly shouldn't be no magical optimal equipment set for each enemy you fight. If theres a set cost to kill each enemy, then the goal should be to be as efficient as possible to minimize your costs to kill as close to that number as possible.

A small theory of mine though, no data or testing to back it up. I wonder if the amount of times an enemy regenerates once it enters combat somehow negatively affects the loot composition? It would mean that higher dps means less times enemy regenerates which means less effect on loot. Something easily programmable, regenerates 3 times, -3 to the loot kind of thing, and would make sense when MA states that being efficient matters still.

But that doesn't explain why some people with high dps setups are losing a fair bit on the same thing they were hunting pre 2.0. It just doesn't make sense, which leans towards needing certain gear for what your hunting apparently.

When it comes to scopes and lasers adding efficiency, my only guess is now we need to consider if that bit of extra efficiency added from them will change our loot composition in a favourable way to offset the additional repair costs. Especially when you consider that MA has stated that efficiency only affects at most 7% of the loot, which means the more you have the more that's affected.

Far as I've read, not tested myself, it seemed varying decay costs, pre 2.0, in the weapons you used affected your loot in some manner allowing different TT's thresholds to be reached and allowing different kinds of loot to appear. This could be similar with scopes and lasers now. Again, only what I've read, not tested myself.

I don't think there would be some kind of stealth nerf to naked hunters. Because honestly that just means they are punishing those trying to hunt efficiently as it is. Which is what I myself do, I more or less ONLY hunt naked, whatever I can. I don't have any resto chips or any fancy buffs from armour. Granted I wear my adj assault harrier, but that's really just for the runspeed buff. Id be silly to negatively affect my loot just because I want to wear this armour for the runspeed and it "doesn't match the mob". I don't even repair the armour lol.

One thing is for sure, it seems they have more or less nerfed highly efficient setups while tightening it up for those that don't have much knowledge of the game and only a bit of time to play. Which in a way, is a good thing, more players are needed, of all types, to contribute to the economy that is EU.

Also, all of loot 2.0 hasn't been rolled out yet I don't think, and its gonna take months for people to analyze how it works just like everyone did before.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had while my food is cooking lol.

 

[Mac]

Why you say this? What has attack speed got to do with it? It's still about dmg/sec mainly because of regeneration.
Dmg/sec is still the way to go, either with high attack speed or with high dmg. As long as you just dont let the mob regen to much.

Tell me, what mobs am I supposed to be shooting with a t10mm+hc204+mk1 scope+t6arsoTen+impAres+xmas16 kit? Or do I need to buy more upgrades? If so, what?

 

[livius]

Tell me, what mobs am I supposed to be shooting with a t10mm+hc204+mk1 scope+t6arsoTen+impAres+xmas16 kit? Or do I need to buy more upgrades? If so, what?

I think I have the mobs for you

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

Tell me, what mobs am I supposed to be shooting with a t10mm+hc204+mk1 scope+t6arsoTen+impAres+xmas16 kit? Or do I need to buy more upgrades? If so, what?

Are you having a problem with tt returns (loot quantity) or optimal loot returns (all shrap and oils)??

"Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors."

Which one (or more) of these applies to you?

 

[Stefan 008 Bond]

I don't really know how MA could track armour and fap decay in order to compensate it. Seems like it could be manipulated somehow and to also track it for each individual enemy that you kill? Having the optimal setup though seems a given. But there honestly shouldn't be no magical optimal equipment set for each enemy you fight. If theres a set cost to kill each enemy, then the goal should be to be as efficient as possible to minimize your costs to kill as close to that number as possible.

A small theory of mine though, no data or testing to back it up. I wonder if the amount of times an enemy regenerates once it enters combat somehow negatively affects the loot composition? It would mean that higher dps means less times enemy regenerates which means less effect on loot. Something easily programmable, regenerates 3 times, -3 to the loot kind of thing, and would make sense when MA states that being efficient matters still.

But that doesn't explain why some people with high dps setups are losing a fair bit on the same thing they were hunting pre 2.0. It just doesn't make sense, which leans towards needing certain gear for what your hunting apparently.

When it comes to scopes and lasers adding efficiency, my only guess is now we need to consider if that bit of extra efficiency added from them will change our loot composition in a favourable way to offset the additional repair costs. Especially when you consider that MA has stated that efficiency only affects at most 7% of the loot, which means the more you have the more that's affected.

Far as I've read, not tested myself, it seemed varying decay costs, pre 2.0, in the weapons you used affected your loot in some manner allowing different TT's thresholds to be reached and allowing different kinds of loot to appear. This could be similar with scopes and lasers now. Again, only what I've read, not tested myself.

I don't think there would be some kind of stealth nerf to naked hunters. Because honestly that just means they are punishing those trying to hunt efficiently as it is. Which is what I myself do, I more or less ONLY hunt naked, whatever I can. I don't have any resto chips or any fancy buffs from armour. Granted I wear my adj assault harrier, but that's really just for the runspeed buff. Id be silly to negatively affect my loot just because I want to wear this armour for the runspeed and it "doesn't match the mob". I don't even repair the armour lol.

One thing is for sure, it seems they have more or less nerfed highly efficient setups while tightening it up for those that don't have much knowledge of the game and only a bit of time to play. Which in a way, is a good thing, more players are needed, of all types, to contribute to the economy that is EU.

One thing is for sure, all of loot 2.0 hasn't been rolled out yet I don't think, and its gonna take months for people to analyze how it works just like everyone did before.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had while my food is cooking lol.

Good thoughts thanks, while I agree about tracking armor costs, it might be easier than we think...

Something as simple as a line of code stating "IF no armor decay then no (or less) optimal loot" would suffice..

"Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more."

this statement is what makes me believe we have new things to discuss. This could be a global rule set or it could be enforced on every single mob hunted individually... Mindark is stating they have made changes, it is up to us to decipher , it is not entirely the same as it once was...

 

[Mac]

Are you having a problem with tt returns (loot quantity) or optimal loot returns (all shrap and oils)??

"Loot value calculations and the composition of the items in loot will be affected by properly matching avatar skills and gear to the creature being hunted, rewarding efficient kills with more interesting loot. For optimal loot, it will be important to avoid inefficiencies such as low damage output compared to creature health, excessive time and cost to kill, overkill damage, unmaxed weapons and other factors."

Which one (or more) of these applies to you?

Quantity. I was getting a decent mix of loot, armor, chips, weps, alien bits, etc. but the number of globals, and value of the globals dropped off a cliff after 2.0, all the sudden I was forced to depo significantly more than I had for the previous months just to be able to keep afloat to cycle and finish my mission. I can't seem to get any decent multiplier boosts to help, they are just a few flurries of small globals and hofs that look good on tracker, but end up draining me faster now. Thankfully I was 2/3 done with that mission, I will move on to other mobs and see what happens. It pisses me off that I will be penalized for trying to skill up doing any missions on mobs I am capable of killing because the mobs aren't "right" for MA's magic formula.

 

[jetsina]

It's an interesting meme - that word 'overthinking'....
Now, while it is fascinating how simple systems can look complicated when iterated, some simple thinking ends up being rather undercooked .

Anyway, for starters on 2.0, what can we say is true about individual loots now?
The spread distrubution is less often close to the kill cost on non-multis + the number of low-multies seems to be up a bit to compensate...
Are any figures crystallising out on whether the 3.5 multi is at least still the same as it used to be? Can we get a new distribution curve for non-multis, and is it here that some people are now getting higher losses?

This should be easier to catch I guess, so why not turn the complaints of 'too few mobs' around?

Why not do 20 mobs and look at returns on them if no multis on them? what is the %?
(For those with containers, stick loot into separate containers every 20 mobs - easier to track if mob with mission active. Then at the end of the run you can easily disect the numbers without much loss of time...)
I may try this myself.....

 

[Zanathos]

Good thoughts thanks, while I agree about tracking armor costs, it might be easier than we think...

Something as simple as a line of code stating "IF no armor decay then no (or less) optimal loot" would suffice..

"Loot calculations will be optimized and improved to better factor in the various costs associated with hunting activity, including: healing, ammo consumption, buffs, tool and armor deterioration, attachments, and more."

this statement is what makes me believe we have new things to discuss. This could be a global rule set or it could be enforced on every single mob hunted individually... Mindark is stating they have made changes, it is up to us to decipher , it is not entirely the same as it once was...

A simple line of coding like that could work, but it doesn't make sense to me to make the loot less optimal because a hunter is choosing to hunt naked. How does it work if the hunter is regenerating almost all of the damage he takes? In my case, that's mostly what happens, with the very occasional heal if I haven't been able to regenerate fast enough, and that's usually done between combat if my health gets low. Or what if I never repair the armour? Which is what I do, unless of course the compensation ends because theres no actual decay happening to the armour (since its already at minimum).

I suppose its possible MA tracks the decay done to armour from each hit the enemy makes against you a simple value that increases each time the enemy lands a successful hit, and then when its killed, a part of that decay is put into the loot somehow, the same could be done while healing in combat, but what about out of combat?

How buffs affect loot is probably in line with the efficiency rating, since buff pills and rings change your dpp in a positive way. Would make sense that it gets you closer to that max 7% total that efficiency can affect it. Amps improve the eco rating we know this as well, lasers and scopes could be it just tracks the decay similar to armour and compensates somehow in the loot, which in turn that loot could be affected by the increased efficiency rating (even though your dpp actually goes down with them), the end goal being whether the change in loot is worth the repair costs, similar to enhancers now as it is kind of thing.

How ammo consumption is compensated? I can only guess as well. Probably has something to do with the cost of each attack to the enemy and the total to kill it. Melee doesn't use ammo so I don't think its ammo consumption itself we need to look there. Only other guess is the differences between BLP and laser, and how some weapons are just plain bad for ammo use or decay compared to other weapons. (Again though, melee doesn't use ammo...)

There really shouldn't be a magical equipment set to get the optimal loot on an enemy though, that is too punishing and can lead to thousands of lost peds just to figure it out, sure, those with the information will do better than others, but its one hell of a way to piss off a lot of players that hunt with a certain level of gear. Now its being asked they need to downgrade or upgrade, for whatever reasons just to hit that magical point or they need to hunt something else.

That funnels players in ways they may not want and can restrict what they hunt. That's a bad thing.

 

[M Rufen Power]

Additionally a lot of players were hunting naked with resto chips as well.. in loot 1,0 this was optimal strategy, in loot 2.0 this might not be.

You would be correct in your assumptions, as I have now regrettably had to sell my restoration chip.

Also, all of loot 2.0 hasn't been rolled out yet I don't think, and its gonna take months for people to analyze how it works just like everyone did before.

Anyway, just some thoughts I had while my food is cooking lol.

If it's going to take months to rediscover what was already discovered, I am ready to go stop logging into the game as frequently, just chat maybe while I wait for my withdrawal to be granted?

Either way as it stands now, game is not entertaining so I am quite tempted to just leave EU for good.

 

[aia]

I wonder if we didn't have this loot system Before - but that the main difference was that the "non-optimal loot" was given out in jackpots/big HOFs instead as a part of the Daily loot. I Think about it, as larger HOFs in the past often was given out in coins (and maybe even coins only), and later in huge batches of low-markup animal oils (ie "low quality loot").

I Think this loot system will make hunting a bit more even and peaceful; and maybe those who'll lose from it would be those who would go out looking for jackpots (collected by those who played less eco).

I Think we'll get two hunting styles: One where a hunter hunts with "non-optimal gear". In this case, it could be someone needing to kill 10 000 creatures with (for that hunter) non-interesting loot. In that case, the hunter may be using less optimal gear just to have the mission done with, and getting a better Daily payback than with the old system. On the other hand the loot will mostly be shrapnel (which is ok because this hunter just want to drive the mission forward and not getting any specific loot).
And, the other type of hunter will be camping a specific mob to get a specific loot, let's say output amplifier Components. In this case it's not about killing lots of creatures in a short time, but rather collect as good loot as possible. And in this case the´hunter would use more "optimal" gear. Now this hunter might pay more for the gear to get as optimal speed as possible and also possible longer time to kill the creatures, but on the other hand get more loot with markup.

And a totally different thing. If you're going to kill a mob with 40 HP, it might not Always be so good to use a 10 dmg weapon. The reason is (of course) that first, the mob might regen a bit. Not much, but at least so much that when 4x10 dmg has been delt, the mob has healed 1 HP, so it's still alive after the 4th perfect shot. And the other thing is that the shots aren't one value but an interval. So if a mob has 40 HP, you could have delt 9+9+9+9 dmg, then get an evade, and hten you need to get yet Another shot to kill it.

The above are just thoughts. But as I get it, it's not really bad. The main difference will be that the jackpots will be fewer and returns may be more stable. Also, we have more information of how loots work than Before.

As for compensation for healing cost there is a bit I'm wondering about: While it's straightforward when you heal yourself after killing a mob by yourself, is how loot is affected if you use a healer; if it is the healer who will get the bonus because it's the healer who decays the FAP, or if it's the hunter who will get the "bonus" because the healing COSTs will be assigned to he healed person (at the FAPs decay rate) and it's expected that someone who heals someone else (ie fapper) will be paid by hunter by Money hunter gets from the "healing payback"). And if you hire a modfapper, that the "payback" you will get is the decay for the modfap, not the hourly fee you pay the healer.